Hi,
Just yesterday, weeks after the fan replacement, my computer roared, coughed and stopped ventilating the CPU. The fan just stopped and won't start anymore.
The machine is still working, but only at a "notepad usage" level. Any rendering or other demanding task could, effectively, cook the CPU. I am totally devastated with something like this happening right in the course of my transition from a hobby artist into a pro.
I think this might be a sign that it is time to get a new machine...
While I'll try to patch this heap of junk up so that it stays alive for a few more months, I'd like to ask - which computer brands, "Apple" excluded, do you consider most durable hardware-wise? Something that doesn't break down after just four years. Plus, I'd like to get at least a 24 threaded CPU. Durability is the #1 priority though.
That's too bad. Maybe use a vacuum cleaner to suck out hot air while you work ;D Or blow fresh in.
Curious what will be answered here, as I'm about to purchase a new machine as well. Just waiting for the newest GPU's to get on the market.
yep, that sucks...(no pun intended).
Perhaps some people working in a Studio can tell us what they are using day in day out.
That would be interesting. But as a One-Man-Show buying the components and putting them together
in a box is giving you more "bang for buck", as they say.
Building a computer for use with TG is not as demanding as e.g. a computer for Audio.
Quite easy to configure regarding OS and drivers etc. It`s not that hard.
Only the first computer in my digital life has been a pre-build Dell. State-of-the-Art P4 with 2 MHz :)
Can you believe it. That was in the early 90s, I think.
Since then I have always been building the machines myself. Except for Labtops.
But...that does not help you now, of course.
CHeers, Klaus
Quote from: Dune on October 21, 2020, 06:57:25 AMThat's too bad. Maybe use a vacuum cleaner to suck out hot air while you work ;D Or blow fresh in.
Why not. I might as well design an insertable ice-cube compartment.
I'm thinking Asus or Dell now. Both are pretty popular and, in case of emergency, their service centers are not light years away. Unlike MSI which literally has one service center in Poland. One service center... for a 38 million nation...
I think I will also request for an older video card to be installed as well as the removal of NIC - this should save some money too. Not sure if this is practiced though...
Quote from: KlausK on October 21, 2020, 07:15:47 AM(...)
Building a computer for use with TG is not as demanding as e.g. a computer for Audio.
Quite easy to configure regarding OS and drivers etc. It`s not that hard.
(...)
But...that does not help you now, of course.
CHeers, Klaus
Oh, on the contrary. I think you have a point there - having a custom-built computer could at least let me decide what components do I need, instead of buying some overpriced pieces of hardware that will rarely be used.
I have never done it though... My story is entirely different - all of my computers have been COTS.
I would find information on best components for your use and compose it yourself, then have a renowned computer business put it together. That's what I will do. Putting together myself is just a tiny step too far, though I'm pretty sure it's indeed not that hard.
This is what's on my mind until now:
power supply: Corsair RM750x (2018) (125 euro)..... 10 year garantee.
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock 4 74 euro..... ask if it fits!
memory: 64GB (4 x 16GB) Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3200 C16
case: Fractal Design Meshify C - Dark TG
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5GHz 16-Core Processor.... of Ryzen 7 3700x boxed ??
storage: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB....
Motherboard: ASRock B550 Extreme4 (~200 euro).... of Asus Prime X570-Pro, Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro (!)
GPU: Nvidia RTX 3070 (out later 2020)
Quote from: Dune on October 21, 2020, 07:34:59 AMI would find information on best components for your use and compose it yourself, then have a renowned computer business put it together. That's what I will do.
Yep, this is the COA that I'd opt for if I decide to make a custom-built computer. I myself wouldn't even know where to start... :-X
If you are willing to spend some money I would *always* go with server/workstation components for mainboard, CPU/fans and RAM. Either build the system yourself or purchase from a workstation builder who knows what performs best in which config.
I got some PCs from CADnetwork (cadnetwork.de, they have a configurator to choose CPU/RAM/GFX/HDD) and while they aren't cheap, all of them run nicely for years under really heavy load. Only one of the machines, some 8 years old by now, had a faulty RAM stick recently, another had to have a CMOS battery replacement, that's it.
I'm sure there will be a similar service available in Poland, there has to be a small shop somewhere knowing what they do ;)
Quote from: pokoy on October 21, 2020, 08:08:44 AMIf you are willing to spend some money I would *always* go with server/workstation components for mainboard, CPU/fans and RAM. Either build the system yourself or purchase from a workstation builder who knows what performs best in which config.
I got some PCs from CADnetwork (cadnetwork.de, they have a configurator to choose CPU/RAM/GFX/HDD) and while they aren't cheap, all of them run nicely for years under really heavy load. Only one of the machines, some 8 years old by now, had a faulty RAM stick recently, another had to have a CMOS battery replacement, that's it.
I'm sure there will be a similar service available in Poland, there has to be a small shop somewhere knowing what they do ;)
I'm afraid I can't spend too much... The only priority is durability and at least 24 threads @ at least 3-4ish GHz. I just don't think I need a powerful GPU for Terragen and Blender moddeling. Or do I...?
You are right - I have found a reliably looking company in the vicinity of Blue City and they specialize in building computers for graphics designers and moddelers! So it sounds promising. I'll give them a call today.
@Dune - these seem to be pretty high-end and expensive components! I think I'll save up on GPU and RAM. I don't believe I will need anything higher than 4GB / 16GB respectively. Even the Nvidia 900 series is good enough.
You're right, but if I spread this investment over 8 years or so until (maybe) the next big update, a few hundred euro's will not be a bottleneck. The GPU is relatively the most expensive I think, and the only thing over which a lingering doubt persists.
If money is a concern I would honestly go a gaming rig, and just choose a better CPU. You'll get the best of both worlds then, as most gaming setups have good memory and size, and usually M.2 plus large backup hdd for projects and assets. Reason I say this is these manufacturers usually have deals in their parts so can get but shaving off a couple hundred while still making a profit. Workstation computers and such will be much more expensive.
That being said, there are still workstations and servers for sale used on eBay and Amazon. Some very decent 24core xeons for example paired with 24-32gb RAM. Buying used always comes with it's concerns though. However been seeing some cheap deals, like 350 for 24core servers.
Quote from: Dune on October 21, 2020, 09:19:55 AMYou're right, but if I spread this investment over 8 years or so until (maybe) the next big update, a few hundred euro's will not be a bottleneck. The GPU is relatively the most expensive I think, and the only thing over which a lingering doubt persists.
This is what I have in mind too. Something that will last for at least 8-10 years (my first-ever Toshiba laptop was still going strong after ten years when I finally changed it for the MSI).
Hmm, is GPU really that expensive? When I used a configurator on one of the vendors' websites, it was the Ryzen CPU that generated 75% of the cost. ::) Compatible GPU's were dirt-cheap! No more than 5% of what the processor was worth.
Quote from: WAS on October 21, 2020, 01:14:30 PMIf money is a concern I would honestly go a gaming rig, and just choose a better CPU. You'll get the best of both worlds then, as most gaming setups have good memory and size, and usually M.2 plus large backup hdd for projects and assets. Reason I say this is these manufacturers usually have deals in their parts so can get but shaving off a couple hundred while still making a profit.
You are right about that Jordan, but the problem is that multi-threaded CPU's like Ryzen are all very rare here, even with the rigs that are marketed as "gaming" rigs. Seems like vendors believe that i7 - i10 are the peak achievements of digital processing and people just couldn't ask for more.
Okay, an update...
So the service guys have thoroughly checked the computer... and found nothing. 😕
The fan works again but now, those idiots must have messed with the configuration somehow. The fan is constantly revving up and down. It works at high RPM for eight seconds, then stops for ten. And the cycle repeats itself.
The cooling is efficient, but I am completely mad with this noise!! 😠 Goddamit! What have they done?!
Maybe check the BIOS, see what the fan does there? Is there no specific software installed that can 'do' the fans?
I have tried "Speedfan" but automatic management does not change a thing. Strangely, there is even no option in BIOS relating to fan curves or fan speeds. I think I'll have to expedite the purchase of a new machine. *sigh*
Up against another problem: supply of Ryzen 3950x is abundant... but compatible motherboards are scarce as hen's teeth!
What was AMD on...? They make a CPU but fail to provide motherboards for it - way to go...
https://www.komputronik.pl/search-filter/757/plyty-glowne-pod-socket-am4
Check here. It's down to market and demand, and PC market in Poland is not that strong to begin with, so the dominating factor, Intel, would be more common than AMD.
N-drju,
If parts availability in Poland is difficult, you could try a prebuilt BOXX:
https://www.boxx.com/systems/workstations/a-class
Looks like there is one reseller in Poland:
https://www.boxx.com/about/international-resellers#europe
Dell seems to be suppling CD PROJEKT Red with PC's:
https://www.delltechnologies.com/en-us/blog/the-tech-that-brings-cd-projekt-red-games-to-life/
How about this mobo: Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro? Some mobo's don't work right away with the Ryzen 9 3950X, and some need a bios update. This one works, and is not too expensive either. Can't they just order a good mobo (abroad)?
I've checked a good number of reviews and tests and this configuration will be my purchase:
power supply: Corsair RM750x €135,05
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock 4. €69,45
memory: CORSAIR Vengeance LPX - DDR4 - 64 GB: 2 x 32 GB - 288-PIN - 3200 MHz - CL16 - 1.35 V - zwart €265 (2 slots left, so can be extended)
case: Fractal Design Meshify C - Dark TG €99,50
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5GHz 16-Core Processor €761,05
storage: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB. €336
Motherboard: Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro €240,85
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 1660 Ti Gaming X 6GB €315
Software: win 10 Pro licence €143
It's under €2400, and when I look at those workstations at Boxx, they are around that price at least, and have less 'in the box'. What's the difference between a workstation and a pc anyway?
And you are probably right that a high end GPU like (RTX 3070) is overkill. As it was still hard to get, I have changed to a lesser GPU, but still one that reviewed very well.
I hope you'll find what you need!
Wow! Thank you for so many useful tips guys! Some of them have really let me sort my mind a bit. All of your research combined with mine have put my reasoning back on track a bit.Quote from: WAS on November 04, 2020, 04:43:20 PMhttps://www.komputronik.pl/search-filter/757/plyty-glowne-pod-socket-am4
Check here. It's down to market and demand, and PC market in Poland is not that strong to begin with, so the dominating factor, Intel, would be more common than AMD.
You are right Jordan. Most customers in my country use computers chiefly for MS Office, Netflix and maybe some gaming. And even the gaming rigs are not quite as advanced as something that is supposed to work with CG.In fact, Komputronik was my primary choice but... When I started to assemble the parts for Ryzen 3950x with their online configurator it turned out... that there are no compatible motherboards in their shop...This is really strange, because they do have an am4 socket MBs (like you have researched). Why aren't they showing as compatible then? ::) Are there any other considerations involved apart from the socket type?Quote from: D.A. Bentley on November 04, 2020, 07:32:26 PMN-drju,
If parts availability in Poland is difficult, you could try a prebuilt BOXX:
https://www.boxx.com/systems/workstations/a-class
Looks like there is one reseller in Poland:
https://www.boxx.com/about/international-resellers#europe
Dell seems to be suppling CD PROJEKT Red with PC's:
https://www.delltechnologies.com/en-us/blog/the-tech-that-brings-cd-projekt-red-games-to-life/
That's a ton of useful info right there D.A. - thank you! Hmmm... BOXX is an interesting option though I am a little bit skeptic regarding the customer support (or lack thereof) for their products.I did call Dell customer support though, and they said that it is possible to customize one of their products to include the components I need. So that's a good thing. :D I am a little bit afraid of the cost though... However, Dell service centers are plentiful and this is important too. You know, it's not a problem to build a computer. The trouble is where you can take it afterwards if something breaks... Quote from: Dune on November 05, 2020, 01:59:03 AMI've checked a good number of reviews and tests and this configuration will be my purchase:
power supply: Corsair RM750x €135,05
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock 4. €69,45
memory: CORSAIR Vengeance LPX - DDR4 - 64 GB: 2 x 32 GB - 288-PIN - 3200 MHz - CL16 - 1.35 V - zwart €265 (2 slots left, so can be extended)
case: Fractal Design Meshify C - Dark TG €99,50
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5GHz 16-Core Processor €761,05
storage: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB. €336
Motherboard: Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro €240,85
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 1660 Ti Gaming X 6GB €315
Software: win 10 Pro licence €143
As a gamer I can tell you that GTX 1660 is a very good GPU! :D I am sure you will be satisfied, so no regrets. Many people would still kill for that card. In fact, even the GTX 900 series is still going strong.
If I were you (or rather you were me), I'd consider changing the storage device to a Toshiba Canvio. I think they are a bit cheaper but built to last - Toshiba is a very reliable brand (just like "be quiet!" too).
Thanks Andrzej. I'll have a look at the Toshiba. And good to know your opinion about the 1660. Good choice, it seems :)
Next thing I was worrying about was the setup of the whole new machine. Make partitions (to get the same disk structure for TG) before installing win 10 seems beter than after, and then I learned that there's GPT replacing MBR. Lots to think about. So I found some interesting freeware partitioning software, which also does cloning (Macrorit Partitioning Expert). It's always a bit scary to dive into many years after the last time, but I always managed.
Quote from: Dune on November 05, 2020, 06:45:32 AMThanks Andrzej. I'll have a look at the Toshiba. And good to know your opinion about the 1660. Good choice, it seems :)
Next thing I was worrying about was the setup of the whole new machine. Make partitions (to get the same disk structure for TG) before installing win 10 seems beter than after, and then I learned that there's GPT replacing MBR. Lots to think about. So I found some interesting freeware partitioning software, which also does cloning (Macrorit Partitioning Expert). It's always a bit scary to dive into many years after the last time, but I always managed.
You can easily set up partitions during the Windows install. :) Your system will offer you a choice in the course of the process. Unless you wish to do it completely outside any Windows-related mechanism.
You may check this video out (from 10:00 mark) Of course, as long as this is what you want to do:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QvzrmDzciyE
Check each boards manufacturers page, they will have CPU charts as well as if it needs a bios update. That may be why they aren't listing but it seems like their part pickers tags may just be messed up, cause from what ai recall there were several ready boards listed.
https://shop.watercool.de/epages/WatercooleK.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/WatercooleK/Categories/Radiatoren/MO-RA3
@Andrzej: are you suggesting to not use win 10, but better have win 7 installed? I still have to buy an extra licence of any OS for the new rig, so I can still choose. Can't really use one of the other win 7 licences, as they are computer-bound, I believe. I might have to check whether the new rig will work on win 7, as that's what I'd prefer of course. Regarding drivers and such...
Quote from: Dune on November 06, 2020, 02:34:26 AM@Andrzej: are you suggesting to not use win 10, but better have win 7 installed? I still have to buy an extra licence of any OS for the new rig, so I can still choose. Can't really use one of the other win 7 licences, as they are computer-bound, I believe. I might have to check whether the new rig will work on win 7, as that's what I'd prefer of course. Regarding drivers and such...
Hehe, no, I think you misunderstood me. :D
I just wanted to say that you can prepare partitions during Windows installation, like in the video. This should work for any Windows.
Hmm... I think that you can legally use old Windows, as long as you uninstall it from the previous machine. Just like Terragen - you get a license for one computer, but you can just move the license key to the other machine. However, this is a question for the Microsoft Support. I'd certainly like to hear their opinion on the matter.
Okay, thanks. I saw some reviews and stuff about that in the meantime, so that isn't a problem anymore. I just need to find out if it's better to use good old win 7 instead of win 10.... (which I'd prefer). I don't mind getting another licence, as I want my 'old' machine to continue working as is.
Sorry about hijacking...
Quote from: Dune on November 06, 2020, 06:14:50 AMSorry about hijacking...
That's okay, as it actually contributes to my cause. It's reassuring to see some of your equipment preferences matching mine. ;)
I think I have made all the choices for my "Dream Machine". I have sent inquires to three computer shops including Dell and am currently comparing offers. 8) The best bidder wins.
My set will look like the one below. Some minor changes may still take place:
CPU: Ryzen 9 3950x (16 cores, 32 threads)
GPU: Gigabyte GeForce 1650GTX
MoBo: Gigabyte X570 Aorus PRO
CPU fan: be quiet! Shadow Rock 3
Power supply: be quiet! Pure Power 11 700W
Storage: Toshiba Canvio Basics 1TB (black)
DRAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB Black
Case: Corsair Carbide Series 270R Windowed
By the way, Dell answered my inquiry first, albeit with many "econo-parts", which I am not entirely convinced to. I'd rather pay a little bit more and have some of the "upper shelf" elements installed. Dell's proposal with all of the "econo-parts" costs a laughable 1200 Euro (net price). :o But, like I said, the parts used for that set are really basic... and use an MSI motherboard... ::) Which is quite ridiculous.
Still, the above, preferred set is worth just slightly more - 1250 Euro net price. It is still a very affordable solution but the parts are much better. I don't really know what to think of it... But, given that case, power supply and cpu fan generate some savings, I'd say it's still a sturdy and reliable configuration.
What do you guys think?
Looks good. I checked out your power supply and found this site: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/corsair-rm750x-or-bequiet-straight-power-11.3269836/ (https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/corsair-rm750x-or-bequiet-straight-power-11.3269836/)
Might be of interest to you. I opted for Corsair because of the long warranty, and some say it's even quieter than the Be Quiet!
How come you only want 16gigs of memory? With such power at your hands, I'd go for at least double. Won't cost you the world. And buy it efficiently, so you have spare slots. I go for 2x32 gigs instead of 4x16, e.g.
Btw. what's your idea about using win 7 instead of win 10. I have to buy a new licence anyway, so if my config would work under win 7, I'd be happy. Any ideas why it shouldn't work under win 7, driver wise?
Cool. Thanks for the tip Ulco. I'd certainly wish the computer remained silent - my idea though is that it's best to have as many parts as possible coming from a single manufacturer. My logic is that it increases compatibility and makes servicing easier. I'll consider the suggestion though.Quote from: Dune on November 10, 2020, 02:23:49 AMHow come you only want 16gigs of memory? With such power at your hands, I'd go for at least double. Won't cost you the world. And buy it efficiently, so you have spare slots. I go for 2x32 gigs instead of 4x16, e.g.
Hehe, so I am a minimalist now? :D Well, most of my current projects rarely exceed 14GB RAM, so I thought it's just enough. However, I will leave some extra slots open for more RAM, no doubt.Quote from: Dune on November 10, 2020, 02:23:49 AMBtw. what's your idea about using win 7 instead of win 10. I have to buy a new licence anyway, so if my config would work under win 7, I'd be happy. Any ideas why it shouldn't work under win 7, driver wise?
Umm... Is this question for me? I did not say that Windows 7 should be used instead of 10.
If you refer to the video, I only wanted to show you how you can set up partitions on (any) Windows install.
Personally, I think I'll just go with Win 10. The computer will be air-gapped anyway, so the alleged Microsoft's spying will be foiled anyway...
Whoa... Breaking news...
One of the shops I have sent the inquiry to, replied that AMD has just released a new CPU, more efficient than 3950x but within the same price range!
I told them to provide the item's name, so I will let you know which one is it as soon as I learn it myself. Their recommendation is to wait two more weeks until it becomes available. Then, put it into my machine. Interesting.
Quote from: N-drju on November 10, 2020, 04:19:57 AMWhoa... Breaking news...
One of the shops I have sent the inquiry to, replied that AMD has just released a new CPU, more efficient than 3950x but within the same price range!
Ok, they meant Ryzen 9 5950x.
Not really sure if I want it though... It has newer architecture, 0.2GHz faster turbo but at the same time has nominal speed slower by 0.1Ghz compared to 3950x... Not too much difference but is 150EUR more expensive.
Quote from: N-drju on November 10, 2020, 04:14:24 AMWell, most of my current projects rarely exceed 14GB RAM, so I thought it's just enough.
Do yourself a favour and buy more RAM instead of the newer CPU. Especially if you can`t afford both.
16gb is just not enough for such a powerful processor and graphic card. They both will suffer from that. It`s a bottleneck.
The argument that your projects did not exceed 14gb is mute - it is the old machine your quoting, projects have limitations because of that. Once your Ryzen flys through your projects they WILL get bigger needing more RAM for sure.
And buying additional RAM later might end up in not being able to buy the same - which is not a problem per se - but might be.
Always best to get the amount of RAM in a bundle of 4 or more (do not use 3 or 5 or something like that). Sometimes using only two sticks of RAM may not allow you to enable quad channel mode (I presume the Ryzen cpu supports that). So four sticks would be needed. You have to check that with the specs of the mainboard you buy.
And we all know that TG uses less cores once the render is over 50% or so. But RAM will still be occupied. So you cannot use your computer to a good measure during that period with other software when there is no RAM left for idle cores.
Money is always an issue but you`d be on a safer side with at least 32gb (even more so 64gb) of RAM.
You are trying to start a business here, right? You cannot afford to loose a client because your computer ran out of RAM and could not finish a render in time...
my2cents
CHeers, Klaus
That was my idea too.
Didn't know about the 2 versus 4 sticks maybe not working in quad channel mode. I have to check that indeed... thanks.
Hello Klaus, and thank you for your insights. :)
I was not aware of the considerations you have mentioned. Until now, I have had a pretty simple (simplistic?) view of RAM as a "space" that is used to handle 3D objects. I did not fully realize that there are such complex interactions going on between the other fixtures.
I think I am able to trickle some more gold for both the CPU and RAM. Seems reasonable after your explanation. And we certainly don't want to disappoint our customers and fans...
Quote from: KlausK on November 11, 2020, 07:30:33 PMSometimes using only two sticks of RAM may not allow you to enable quad channel mode (I presume the Ryzen cpu supports that). So four sticks would be needed. You have to check that with the specs of the mainboard you buy.
I checked with my soon-to-be vendor, that quad channel mode is available only with Threadripper series. Neither 5950x nor 3950x use quad channel RAM. But rest assured, 32GB is what I'll opt for.
not to hijack the topic, does anyone have an amd ryzen 5950x? how does it run?
i need to upgrade my machine but i am basicaly lost on what to buy :)
FYI the Ryzen 9 series CPU does NOT support quad-channel memory.
Annoying as I only found out after I had shelled out.
Agree with RAM suggestions. I have 32gb and keep loosing TG to crashes during excessive populating or rendering. Latest scene does alright at low res but is crashing at high res even with shaders disabled but pops so yeah. I need 64gb or better CPU and even more RAM.
I just dropped the DELL solution.
They insisted to mount an MSI motherboard and the cheapest PSU and CPU cooler they could find. That being said, I'm sure their machine would offer a rather mediocre experience.
They also said that anything outside the offer they provided will basically void the "DELL" branding on the machine... Which is a deal breaker all the same.
I'll go with that other company which suggested 5950x.
The eagle has landed. ;)
My new system is ready and waiting, 5950x fitted with 32gb ram and a GT1030 4GB GPU.
I am happy but at the same time somewhat worried. I hope everything works as it should... Oh well, I guess this is just me.
In any case, I will finally have a chance to re-render my entire portfolio without having to feel as if I was serving a jail term. I'll let you guys know my opinion about 5950 when I see it in action. ;)
Great! Let us know how it behaves, I'm very curious.