4D indicates a 4-dimensional euclidean space, and space-time is not supposed to be confused with this physical dimension. So why is it called 4D for time based stuff in 3D programming? When the 1D, 2D, 3D all refers to euclidean space, and thus ana and kata movement of objects?
I've tried to search for the origins of the terminology for 3D software stuff but can't find anything.
PS I realize it does translate to movement in most software that I know of like Terragen's 4D noise, but it's also referred to as time for the movement or what not which confuses me from all explanations which explicitly tell you not to confuse with time-space, which is what these programs seem to be referring to, like TG.
Is this why there is no vector based movement of velocity, and it just being frame by frame "time" or however that may be explained?
Quote from: WAS on March 23, 2021, 10:24:46 PM4D indicates a 4-dimensional euclidean space, and space-time is not supposed to be confused with this physical dimension. So why is it called 4D for time based stuff in 3D programming? When the 1D, 2D, 3D all refers to euclidean space, and thus ana and kata movement of objects?
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Not sure i understand you correctly. But the first 2 sentences looks like it says different then your question?
"In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. The fabric of space-time is a conceptual model combining the three dimensions of space with the fourth dimension of time."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
If you work for an image you are working in 3d. If you work for an animation (+ time) it becomes 4d.
Not sure what you are asking specifically Jordan.
Quote from: WAS on March 23, 2021, 10:24:46 PM...
PS I realize it does translate to movement in most software that I know of like Terragen's 4D noise, but it's also referred to as time for the movement or what not which confuses me from all explanations which explicitly tell you not to confuse with time-space, which is what these programs seem to be referring to, like TG....
Curious...Where?
Quote from: WAS on March 23, 2021, 10:24:46 PM...
Is this why there is no vector based movement of velocity, and it just being frame by frame "time" or however that may be explained?
I am not much into mathematics you know. But some other software does have much more control over animation.
There are most probably more options for movement, velocity etc.
And even in Terragen when you play with TCB or linear settings you are using actually those (velocity etc.) in a limited way.
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 12:14:41 AMQuote from: WAS on March 23, 2021, 10:24:46 PM...
PS I realize it does translate to movement in most software that I know of like Terragen's 4D noise, but it's also referred to as time for the movement or what not which confuses me from all explanations which explicitly tell you not to confuse with time-space, which is what these programs seem to be referring to, like TG....
Curious...Where?
On the power fractal page, and the fact it only works based on the timeline like blender and other stuff.
https://planetside.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Cloud_Fractal_Shader_v3
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 12:10:47 AMQuote from: WAS on March 23, 2021, 10:24:46 PM4D indicates a 4-dimensional euclidean space, and space-time is not supposed to be confused with this physical dimension. So why is it called 4D for time based stuff in 3D programming? When the 1D, 2D, 3D all refers to euclidean space, and thus ana and kata movement of objects?
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Not sure i understand you correctly. But the first 2 sentences looks like it says different then your question?
"In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. The fabric of space-time is a conceptual model combining the three dimensions of space with the fourth dimension of time."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
Yes, and compare to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space which is based on 4 dimensions of space, where the 4th is more akin with velocity. Ana and Kata.
Here is a topic I read earlier in a facebook discussion about this: https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-the-fourth-dimension.htm
Quoting the first paragraph which is a good quick summary of the 4th dimension of space.
Quote from: undefinedThe fourth dimension is generally understood to refer to a hypothetical fourth spatial dimension, added on to the standard three dimensions. It should not be confused with the view of space-time, which adds a fourth dimension of time to the universe. The space in which this dimension exists is referred to as 4-dimensional Euclidean space.
As an example in ligthwave this is only one small tab for motion of particles. There are more options on other tabs.
And Lightwave does have much more deep controls that i haven't used at all even.
More modern apps like Houdini are probably even better at this.
Do you mean this:
"4D noise Click this checkbox to enable 4D noise. 4D noise is always different from 3D noise, so expect deformations to change when this setting is enabled." ?
Not sure but i think this is trying just to say that your noise pattern will be different when you click this. Nothing more so far i know. Or nothing more deep at least .
The other space dimension parts are needlessly confusing i think.
If you think about string theory for example there are 10 and more dimensions.
If you ask me (you shouldn't :D ) All those theoretical dimensions are just that. Kinda abstract mathematical games.
I have my own thoughts about this but that is another thing.
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 12:34:50 AMNot sure but i think this is trying just to say that your noise pattern will be different when you click this. Nothing more so far i know. Or nothing more deep at least .
Read the second, where you select speed, and this is all based on the timeline, or frame. And is just an XYZ position. Same for moving around objects, no velocity like you show with Lightwave. Which I think is why we can't have blurred objects by the frame based on velocity and the camera.
Well the 4th dimension of 3D space is pretty concrete. Otherwise, nothing would quite work. Everything would be stationary. It's the mathematical extension of 3D space which gives us as previously mentioned the 4th axis, ana/kata. This is like setting up a vector velocity for an object, probably similar to what you showed in Lightwave. Least this is my understanding. But Terragen and I think I've seen it mentioned in other software 4D being time based, with the timeline and frames.
This may be a good topic which I am starting to read now: https://fleischfilm.com/animating-the-4th-dimension/
But in summary I am wondering why it's called "4D" when 4D is supposed to represent 4 dimensional space, not space-time, and in TG it seems to be a relation between space-time and evolution of noise?
Wait i will try a basic render to show something. Not sure if it will help.
Also what I mean with objects is like objects in TG when you animate them, they just exist at a location in every frame, they don't have a vector through 4D space. They use space-time to translate [as the key]. (???)
You don't need vector for this...so to speak.
Think as an baked fbx animation that you get from another software for those particles for example.
Every place that object is is one frame-keyframe. You might have used momemtum, different velocity etc in that software.
But in the end that object is going from one point to another one in time. When you bake this in a FBX file you get the same result.
So you could do the same frame for frame manually for every object in Terragen too basically...hard to do of course.
Anyway hard for me to say what i want...
But you are kinda making it more complicated then it is if you ask me.
Every motion (velocity, momentum or whatnot...) is just a place-keyframe baked-sliced in 3 dimension basically.
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 01:18:09 AMEvery motion (velocity, momentum or whatnot...) is just a place-keyframe backed-sliced in 3 dimension basically.
Well, the point of velocity is based in physics. That's how you can get a still of motion blur with that data. Things just existing at a location don't allow that. They're just there, no data for speed, trajectory, and in some simulations instances, weight influence with gravity.
This video is pretty cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TI1onWI_IM and I guess the PF is a 4D "object" or noise. So I guess it is 4D after-all and like you said was thinking too much into as I was also thinking about objects and velocities (I was having a discussion on blender fluid sims and wishing we had particles)
Those videos also make the CInema 4D hyper-this and hyper-that makes a little more sense, and why you could do crazy warping and explosions with them.
Bonus video because it started because of autoplay. Really love this guys accent (Scottish?) so I sat down and been watching. Lol
There is always the danger in Mathematics and Physics(if it goes too much into the former) like in psychology.
You can say anything in psychology ( sorry... i like psychology actually).
The problem with it is if you can not proof and more importantly falsify anything then you can say everything you want.
I am sure you could build many world models that have more then 20 dimensions.
Speaking about and using 4 dimensions in Mathematics isn't a proof that there are really 4 dimensions.
Don't get me wrong. I don't say that these are wrong.
But so far we know the real world is only 3 dimensions together with time only 4....space time or whatever you call it.
I have mine own thoughts about this since many years and want to write about it ( i have different thoughts then i myself wrote above even, to not to get too confusing and sound like some of those lunatics on the web...ooops).
But i am still kinda procrastinating with Terragen then to sit down and write :)
I said to myself the animation i am now making will be the last and i will then begin to write...will see what happens ;)
Yeah i like those videos too. They are interesting.
At least you can better visualise what it could be if 4 dimensions were true.
Hi Matt, if you read this why we don't have motion blur for objects? I am just curious what the problem is?
Anything related to this thread for example?
Pretty suuuure many theories have proven the existence of a 4th dimension [or something very similar] otherwise our universe is based on magic. Lol.
CSP, and Planck CMB Survey to name a couple. Without our universe being hyperspherical as all models have shown, much of our understanding of things is based on magic, not understanding the 4th dimension. And again, we can easily do the math, and the equations equate, and as shown, we can visualize the data just the same as 3D in 2D.
I would say not believing in the 4th dimension isn't standard to practice these days.
Confusing yeah...
What i mean by 4th was the way you used it as a spatial dimension like XYZ like that video.
Time as an 4th dimension is not what i am against and was not my intention there.
(i am actually but that is a different thing too complicated to talk here)
In reality something moving has specific locations too at every moment in time, it's just divided into extremely small 'moments'. In animation it's 25 per second. 4D just translates that, just an easy annotation. But you know that of course.
When you start thinking about time, you soon ( :P ) end up in a chaotic mind and endless ( :P again) discussions.
Quote from: Dune on March 24, 2021, 03:18:43 AM...
When you start thinking about time, you soon ( :P ) end up in a chaotic mind and endless ( :P again) discussions.
Pretty much yeah ;D
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 03:01:03 AMWhat i mean by 4th was the way you used it as a spatial dimension like XYZ like that video.
Time as an 4th dimension is not what i am against and was not my intention there.
Again, these are totally different things. The 4th dimension of
space-time is not the 4th dimension of
space which gives us the hyperspheroid that is our Universe that only a hyperspherical universe could account for it's anomalies in perception. Which is a 4-dimensional shape in
space.
4th dimension of space-time is just a 4th dimension of time in the universe (which is a 4-dimensional euclidean hyperspheroid). People unfortunately get them confused or use them interchangeably, when they are different things. There is no time in physical space. That's why I linked that one website on the last page which tries to help differentiate them.
It is a confusing topic in itself and when i read what you wrote it gets worse...so no comment.
Just let me say this. I think most of it is is just abstract mathematics.
Nice and certainly very smart things. But not what the real world is.
And "real" is an problem in itself without even whatnot number of dimensions added.
"That's why I linked that one website on the last page which tries to help differentiate them." Which link do you mean?
https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-the-fourth-dimension.htm
This one?
Just a commentary or tirade if you want to call it that.
W alphabetically comes before X and not after Z. So a point in 4D space should be (W,X,Y,Z) not (X,Y,Z,W). I know it is nit-picky.
Also, people should get into the habit of saying "four spacial dimensions" or "four dimensions of distance" and not assume that distance is always implied when you say "dimension". I can have four dimensions that have differing units such as energy, charge, mass and time. None of these are "distance". Also, mathematicians often talk about "4D Space" and they are often not talking about Distance Dimensions. They are often sloppy in other ways like omitting operators as in A = 4B + C. They should write A = 4 × B + C. It's one of my gripes about what mathematicians do. This omission makes it impossible to use variable and constant names that are more than one letter long. For example, would A = BC + D be equivalent to A = B × C + D or is BC a variable name? Their laziness is what turned me off to being a math major and the field in general.
My brother once told me a story about a mathematician who committed suicide because he ran out of mathematical symbols to serve as variable names. Programmers have solved that problem by always showing the operators explicitly instead of making them invisible and making every body else guess as to what they mean.
I guess what I am saying is that a lot of confusion comes from being inconsistent with the words we use in our sentences.
Quote from: PabloMack on March 24, 2021, 09:06:26 AM...
Also, people should get into the habit of saying "four spacial dimensions" or "four dimensions of distance" and not assume that distance is always implied when you say "dimension". I can have four dimensions that have differing units such as energy, charge, mass and time. None of these are "distance". Also, mathematicians often talk about "4D Space" and they are often not talking about Distance Dimensions. ...
...
I guess what I am saying is that a lot of confusion comes from being inconsistent with the words we use in our sentences.
Yeah and when you read and write in a foreign language it gets even harder.
If this link is what Jordan means (https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-the-fourth-dimension.htm) when i read it it sounds more like i wrote above. But from Jordans wording it looks like he means and reads it as something else.
It looks like with writing it should be easier.
But from what i saw in the past these kind of different perceptions are better or faster handled with talking directly.
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 09:20:33 AMYeah and when you read and write in a foreign language it gets even harder.
I apologize on behalf of the English speaking world for not having our $#!^ together before we open our mouths.
Quote from: PabloMack on March 24, 2021, 09:45:58 AMQuote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 09:20:33 AMYeah and when you read and write in a foreign language it gets even harder.
I apologize on behalf of the English speaking world for not having our $#!^ together before we open our mouths.
See... that wasn't what i meant. It was myself having trouble to understand and write what i mean and not the English speaking world :D
Quote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 10:22:51 AMQuote from: PabloMack on March 24, 2021, 09:45:58 AMQuote from: Kadri on March 24, 2021, 09:20:33 AMYeah and when you read and write in a foreign language it gets even harder.
I apologize on behalf of the English speaking world for not having our $#!^ together before we open our mouths.
See... that wasn't what i meant. It was myself having trouble to understand and write what i mean and not the English speaking world :D
Nevertheless sometimes we can use strange terminology or words that should mean something else entirely that society has just started using wrong.
Quote from: WAS on March 24, 2021, 01:45:15 PMNevertheless sometimes we can use strange terminology or words that should mean something else entirely that society has just started using wrong.
Happens all the time.
A boss that I had a long time ago and garnered my respect one time told me the difference between Broadband vs. Baseband. Even this browser is underlining "Baseband" because it doesn't know the word. Ethernet is a Baseband technology while MAP and Broadcast are Broadband technologies. The whole industry now thinks that Broadband means "High Speed" but it doesn't mean that. What Broadband means is that a single medium is shared among several channels that divide the bandwidth by some kind of modulation. So the air is Broadband because it carries many different "stations" at one time. But an Ethernet cable is Baseband because it only carries one channel, though that one channel can run at extremely high speed. Sharing of the medium is done by time-slicing by transmission of packets. Only one packet can be transmitted at a time. But it can appear simultaneous because of the interleaving that takes place.
external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg
Bah...He copied your older post and used that. They use many different techniques lately.
Yes, indeed.