I'm really terrible at rocks and find the process of making them time-consuming, frustrating and difficult, especially when you're trying to match real-world formations.
Having said that, does anyone think it's possible to replicate these shelved riverbed rock structures in Terragen? I can think of no way to replicate the sharp edges and blocky shapes. Tried using cubes as a base but the edges explode when I apply displacements. At the moment my (untested) solution is to rough in the shapes in Blender and Mudbox, then create a vector displacement map that can be positioned and detailed in Terragen. Curious to know if anyone has any other ideas.
You would need at least an angled strata shader with a bit of a mask to vary its stratification, and I'd say warping by a smooth voronoi or voronoi vector (blue nodes), that sort of setup. And displace up by these blue nodes in the first place, or use a very hard PF with some very hard fractal warping.
But I'm sure some others will chime in. Kadri made interesting rock shapes.
Thanks, Ulco. I'll give that a try. The Blender > Mudbox > Terragen workflow has stalled because Mudbox insists on throwing a fatal error when I try to import a mesh with hard creases. (Have to say I'm not surprised. Mudbox is buggy buggy buggy. Seriously thinking of cancelling my subscription early and moving to ZBrush.)
Another option would be to rough in displacement maps in Photoshop and fine-tune in TG. But your suggestions sound better.
This is the type of inspiration that lead me to trying to do mars shake like rock structures. Its actually tricky with stuff like this getting masks to work well with rest of the terrain.
Ill experiment with this again cause curious myself.
If you want to have close looking rocks maybe modelling is still the best way.
But you could try of course what Ulco said and make kinda similar or better ones like here below.
This is a scene from 1 year or so ago i am still working now and then. Still not finished.
It is mostly strata, fractal warp, vortex warp...No blue nodes.
The first 3 images are from last year. The others from today.
Kadri, thanks for all those examples and the screenshot. I really appreciate you chiming in. Struggling here. I've managed to get a rough shelving effect but it's really not usable. There are some pretty extreme numbers in the strata shader to try to mimic the rock faces, which are perpendicular to one another in real life. The renderer does not like extreme displacements so it results in a lot of artifacts.
I may end up modeling these but there are also issues with that and I'd prefer an all-Terragen answer to this. I'm going to take a break and study your network and give it another go later this evening.
Shearing more straight angled shapes may be a better approach.
By the way when i say "no blue nodes" it is not something i brag... I am just not good with them :)
So if you can use them you might get out much better things most probably.
When you begin to use higher numbers in the nodes try using higher numbers with the compute terrain-normal too.
There is sometimes a sweet spot where you can get more interesting results and less bad displacement.
The compute normal there is "2000" for example. Depends on the scene of course.
You could use the fakestone approach too. Might even be easier.
I was going to use this for another thing but when you use a flatter stone it could work for you too.
Not all stones are good for this (the simple shape shader is just for excluding the other stones) as you know.
But you could mask them etc. or just export them as obj edit them to your liking and import again.
I'm working on something. The Y from a Voronoi 3D A vector (or convert to greyscale) makes for a good breakup of voronoi to "chisel" it along with some adjustments and such. Then some strata and shear.
Looks promising.
Got a bunch of stuff I gotta take care of, and gotta head out in the morning so I may as well upload what I have.
Maybe it can be simplified or elaborated on.
Thanks Was, Kadri. Both of those approaches are worth a look. I did try fake stones earlier, but tried to do it in one go so to speak. I like your idea of exporting then importing . . . maybe they could be translated and stacked.
Here is where I am at the moment. Looks much better. If a few populations of fake stones are stacked around and on top, something like this should work.
I've found though that the strata shader is not a true displacement. At least it doesn't behave like one. I'm not able to warp it or use the fractal warp shader on it. So the layers of strata end up being super regular. Might try using a displacement map instead, it would be simple enough to make a linear gradient and tile it.
Done for tonight. Tomorrow is another day.
I'll have a go at it too, today. You're awakening my experimentation drive ;D
I can't recall off the top of my head but I wonder if the terracing function can be rotated and used for this. Its in the file sharing.
Me too, this is exciting. Would be nice to get this to work nicely on vertical surfaces!
Here's something that might be useful, Steve. Not perfect, but it does contain some methods to get these kind of flat, stratified rocks. Highest raise is often a bit of a problem, so you might want to circumvent that.
And something I made with a similar setup.
Thanks, Ulco. Those are fantastic! I'll have a look. In the meantime there are a few ideas I'd like to try.
And I retract part of my initial post here . . . this is starting to be fun.
I think you can use a max slope in a distribution shader, and invert it in the strata to keep it off the peaks (if there is no texture data for a min slope)
New iteration. Getting closer, but there are a couple more things I'd like to try.
Apologize for the lack of color, but I always do displacements with an overall flat color then shade later. Maybe just a habit from modeling.
Using a displacement map instead of the strata shader seems to work well. Makes it easy to vary the distance between the peaks, and introduce perpendicular fault lines. And you can apply displacements and warps. The attached png is a smaller, 8-bit version of the 4k, 32-bit map I'm using.
So, high buildup will help you get those longer shelves, sboerner, without the need for a texture. Can just mix a couple at different spacing.
Thanks, Jordan. The problem that I've run into is that, in this case, it doesn't seem possible to warp or displace the strata. Maybe because in most cases the strata shader is applied to a previous displacement and inherits its shape. In this case there is no previous displacement -- the strata shader is the base displacement.
I also keep banging my head against the fact that Terragen just does not handle 90-degree angles very well. Such as vertical displacements, blocks or corners. For example, I'd like to use a regular scalar voronoi node to mask the "islands" that rise above the water surface. That gives me a vertical surface with a sharp edge. Subsequent displacements then go their own way – those on the top head y-ward, those on the vertical faces head x- or z-ward, and you end up with a gap or step along the edge. The soft voronoi node fixes this . . . but you end up with a soft edge, which is not what I want.
These are distinctive rock shapes. They're square and blocky, with clearly defined, sharp layers of strata, eroded on the upstream side and full of potholes created by whirling bits of sand and pebbles that get caught in low areas on the surface. They're surrounded by blocks of rock that the winter ice has splintered off. Maybe I'll just have to settle for something that resembles them if you squint when you look at it. But I'd really like to do better.
Not ready to admit defeat yet, but clearly time for another break.
I am wondering if a brush pack for sculpting may help here.
Something like the follow, but not a zbrush format: https://www.artstation.com/marketplace/p/1mpv/joltbug-rock-sculpt-brushes
Idea being create some sort of rudimentary textures to apply on repeat and warp about.
If you use a soft mask like yours, you can angle the whole Y-displacement a bit, so it's not exactly vertical anymore. You can also harden the mask by color adjust, masked by pf or not.
Yes, doing both of those things. (And borrowing some other tips from the files posted here.) But in this case the vertical corners of the soft voronoi shapes remain too rounded, even with very extreme adjustments.
But I have another idea that I think might work, a hybrid approach. Should have something to post later today if it works out.
I looked into displacements of objects but it was kinda wonky. Not sure why and haven't looked more into this.
Lost interest because of this.
You could use procedurals in other 3D software too for this. Procedural and standard modelling etc.
Nothing what you don't know of course.
There are some free and very cheap rock models too around the web you could use as a base.
Thanks, Kadri. All good thoughts.
Here is a proof-of-concept of a technique I've been playing around with. Obviously there is room for improvement, but I think this might be the way to go.
I started out with a gradient mask made in Photoshop. (As before, but somewhat simplified. I'll attach an 8-bit version.) This gets tiled and warped to produce the basic shelving displacement in Terragen. Then (and this was the aha! moment) warped simple shape shaders are used like cookie cutters to mask out interesting sections, which are then rendered out as individual vector displacement maps. (One attached as an 8-bit jpeg.) The vdms are then positioned in the final scene and small-scale displacements and color are added.
The thing I like about this is that it gives you full control over everything, from the softness of the shape edges (controlled by the ss shader's bevel edge width) to the height and size of the rocks, and you can precisely position them in the final scene. Best of all the shapes are regular displacements.
Testing this in a real scene over the next few days . . .
Interesting workflow. I was going to say that you could also mask the shelving map by a smooth voronoi (and some other pf), but in your scenario you indeed have more control. Good for smaller areas. Did you try your map on cubes?
I don't want to hijack your thread, but I 'stole' your shelving.png and used it to displace cubes (and the streambed). The cubes can be placed, rotated and distorted (redirected), and with transform shaders to move other variables you get quite a bit of control over how they look.
I had been working with a smooth voronoi mask but (among other things) wasn't able to generate the hard vertical edges that I'd really like for this part of the scene.
Your use of the displacement map is great, no worries highjacking the thread. Would you mind sharing that scene (without the flora and model if you prefer)? I've never had much luck with displaced cubes. Many problems with edge artifacts (or completely broken edges) and in some cases I've ended up with holes in the micropoly mesh. I know you use stacked cubes for various things, and others here have, too, but when I try that I get visible seams in addition to the other things. I finally gave up but maybe an example file would show me what I'm doing wrong.
Another reason to use vdms is that it should be possible to edit the displacement in a third-party app, for adding potholes, etc., per digitalguru's excellent tutorial (https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21311.0.html), but it seems the sculpt with map function in the current version of Mudbox is broken so I haven't been able to try that.
Not at my main workstation now but if anyone's interested I can post a link to a 32-bit version of the displacement map.
Running the voronoi mask for the shapes through a a child input, and than mask it by the same input only with a colour adjust lowering white point. Then use the raw voronoi with some sort of adjustment if you want as the breakup input. It helps with making the voronoi rocks have more angled edges and chipped away parts. Only issue is being able to step the sides than faded away would be much better. Almost wish we could purposefully band soft zones like lower bit depth.
Quote from: sboerner on April 11, 2021, 11:58:15 AMI had been working with a smooth voronoi mask but (among other things) wasn't able to generate the hard vertical edges that I'd really like for this part of the scene.
Your use of the displacement map is great, no worries highjacking the thread. Would you mind sharing that scene (without the flora and model if you prefer)? I've never had much luck with displaced cubes. Many problems with edge artifacts (or completely broken edges) and in some cases I've ended up with holes in the micropoly mesh. I know you use stacked cubes for various things, and others here have, too, but when I try that I get visible seams in addition to the other things. I finally gave up but maybe an example file would show me what I'm doing wrong.
Another reason to use vdms is that it should be possible to edit the displacement in a third-party app, for adding potholes, etc., per digitalguru's excellent tutorial (https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21311.0.html), but it seems the sculpt with map function in the current version of Mudbox is broken so I haven't been able to try that.
Not at my main workstation now but if anyone's interested I can post a link to a 32-bit version of the displacement map.
There can be the problems you say depending on the displacement.
But it is on the edge of usability. To me at least.
https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,26357.msg262446.html#msg262446
The render below is from that same scene. I just disabled the bigger cubes.
Quote from: Kadri on April 11, 2021, 04:48:00 PMQuote from: sboerner on April 11, 2021, 11:58:15 AMI had been working with a smooth voronoi mask but (among other things) wasn't able to generate the hard vertical edges that I'd really like for this part of the scene.
Your use of the displacement map is great, no worries highjacking the thread. Would you mind sharing that scene (without the flora and model if you prefer)? I've never had much luck with displaced cubes. Many problems with edge artifacts (or completely broken edges) and in some cases I've ended up with holes in the micropoly mesh. I know you use stacked cubes for various things, and others here have, too, but when I try that I get visible seams in addition to the other things. I finally gave up but maybe an example file would show me what I'm doing wrong.
Another reason to use vdms is that it should be possible to edit the displacement in a third-party app, for adding potholes, etc., per digitalguru's excellent tutorial (https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21311.0.html), but it seems the sculpt with map function in the current version of Mudbox is broken so I haven't been able to try that.
Not at my main workstation now but if anyone's interested I can post a link to a 32-bit version of the displacement map.
There can be the problems you say depending on the displacement.
But it is on the edge of usability. To me at least.
https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,26357.msg262446.html#msg262446
The render below is from that same scene. I just disabled the bigger cubes.
These are really cool, but to me a different type of rock. He wants a more stratified solid metamorphic rock, where what I was doing originally, and you are doing is more shaley with tuns of layers and breakup.
QuoteI don't want to hijack your thread, but I 'stole' your shelving.png and used it to displace cubes (and the streambed).
OK, I can see how this might work. Having better luck with the cube displacements now, not sure why. Perhaps just being shown what can be done helps. I can see where this might work well.
I'm beginning to think that integrating several approaches might work in the final scene, for the stream bed, banks, and isolated rocks . . . mixing regular displacements, cubes and vdms as needed.
QuoteThere can be the problems you say depending on the displacement.
But it is on the edge of usability. To me at least.
I remember this scene well! Made quite an impression when I first saw it. Thanks for the reminder. I've downloaded the file and will have a look.
Original 32-bit displacement map attached.
Quote from: WAS on April 11, 2021, 05:02:02 PM...
These are really cool, but to me a different type of rock. He wants a more stratified solid metamorphic rock, where what I was doing originally, and you are doing is more shaley with tuns of layers and breakup.
That was the reason i didn't posted it before.
I can get great looking tops using the 8bit (which I converted to 32bit and box blurred) and mixing it together translated and scaled and add colour to the original, with some warping and stuff with a hint of voronoi displacement with high bias. But it's the boundaries and rock shapes themselves that's proving annoying.
Here's screendump I forgot to post. And another test, this time with only displacements (by smooth voronoi), no cubes.
Ulco, the new test you posted is very close to the result I'm after. My river needs to be wider and slightly deeper, not quite so full of rocks.
Having another go at it. This is turning into a pretty intense seminar . . . I've learned more in the last 72 hours than in the previous year or two.
I sent you a pm....
Hats off you guys! What I wouldn't give for 10 minutes inside your heads. Well done.
QuoteI sent you a pm....
Received it and responded.