http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?doc_id=143396&f_src=drothersalert
Well, I think he's taking very big leaps at certain point, though I do understand his concerns.
(It's not a search and seizure, banned by the Constitution, because it's not being done by a human – right?).
Don't know if that account for the states but as far as I know it doesn't matter whether it's performed by either a human being or a robot. It's still under the orders/control of the government and the laws still apply to them. At least, they should.
An interesting article. One thing that came to mind is that, as much as a government may abuse the technology to spy on their citizens using nanoids, I can see situations where citizens could turn the tables and have more access to behind the scenes of government ;) ;)
Jim, that would be good. The way it was meant to be from the beginning of the U.S. Constitution. The way it is meant to be.
It seems George Bush has ripped up the constitution. They go on about "democracy" but democracy alone is no good. You have to have a constitution. The US is not just a democracy but a constitutional republic where the people have a bill of rights to protect them no matter who the democratic process puts in power. This is why you were given a right to bear arms - to be able to fight a corrupt government. In the UK, Gordon Brown signed us away on what is essentially a rewrite of the EU constitution (previously rejected by French and Dutch referendums). Most people do not want to be part of an EU superstate. We actually have a form of constitution in the UK and a bill of rights walked over by treasonous politicians signing away our sovereignty. They even changed the UK treason laws so they couldn't be hanged. Don't get me started on this topic. The world situation at present is dire. Few people know what is going on. They don't want you to know.
When I was a teenager (in the 70s), this organization was said by many to not exist --> http://www.trilateral.org/ and the chief founder (David Rockefeller) denied its existence by saying that these people who spoke about the commission were conspiratorial theorists. What exactly needed fixing (read their front page) might have something to do with the constitutional rights of regular people in democratic lands, who had (have?) greater opportunities to protest governmental abuses by public protest compared to people in lands where such freedoms have been considered illegal.
http://christers.net/veeps/rockefeller-bird.jpg During a speech...to protesters.
I always come back to this - governments are meant to recognize what human rights are, not create or manipulate or change them. This is revelation, not indoctrination.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." V for Vendetta
I'm not at my computer much at the moment so didn't reply until now.
Yes Calico, sadly this stuff is not mad conspiracy theory. I don't know how much other people here know but the US government has actually signed the first agreements with Mexico and Canada. They have a new currency lined up called the Amero. They intend to eventually create the North American Union. An EU style superstate which would basically be the end of the United States. Stuff like this simply doesn't get reported on mainstream media. They can use the devaluation of the dollar to justify this move. A dollar is now worth about 2 cents in real terms. The federal reserve has undermined the true value of the dollar for decades. Same problems in UK. Everything possible will proceed to devalue the pound so as to force us into the euro then all our gold reserves get shipped to the Central European Bank in Germany which will then control our economy because whoever controls the money controls the economy. This is a a simple fact. The whole thing is ludicrous. They actually want a euro army and police force. The nazis couldn't have dreamed of this. The previous rejected constitution would have banned the union jack and our national anthem. This is all for real but people don't seem to understand the agenda. Our politicians are nearly all completely self serving and corrupt. Notice how Tony Blair gets his J P Morgan position reward for supporting the war in Iraq. J P Morgan are a huge cog in the whole corrupt banking machine. They are setting up in Iraq, mortgaging all the future oil supplies.
In the US and UK, money is now all debt. It is not backed by anything. They just print more and more from nothing but this situation is completely unsustainable. We are steering towards a possible apocalyptic depression. It all falls into place though. The solution being the Amero and Euro. I could go on for hours about these things but you can find all this stuff on the net. It seems most people don't care though or maybe just don't know.
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time
Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended
our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost
forty years."
"It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world
if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.
But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a
world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite
and world bankers is surely preferable to the national
auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
- David Rockefeller.
This is one of the most blatant peaces of Anti-American propaganda I have ever seen and should be reported to Department of Homeland Security, the technical devision at The National Security Agency and the FBI. There is really nothing new in this peace at all other than a modified version of martial that has been doing the rounds of conspiracy theorists and other easy to discredit people of similar elk for the last forty years, such people suffer from either paranoid delusions including broadcast delusions where they wrap aluminum foil about their heads as they believe that the movement is trying to implant messengers in their head via radio waves, either that or they have some kind of mania or psychosis and so therefore easy to discredit and their theories are left to people like me to debunk.
The articles claims about AI and robotics should be dismissed as the hokum they really are, you should not really expect any thing that presents any real threat to any one until at least 2420AD at the earliest and even then there will probably by laws saying what can and cannot be done with it, and by that time all members of the current administration will have long turned to dust.
Illegal wiretaps have been going on for years, and still do, in the years that J.Edger Hover was director of the FBI hundreds if not more illegal wiretaps where carried out on people engaged in a raft of activities ranging form Anti-Vietnam War Activists to Suspected Communists to people engaged with the Black Rights Movement, these things are on record as historical fact and are not in dispute.
The problem with the Internet, is that any one (And their respective cronies) can distribute what ever rhetorical diatribe they wish and forgo the peer review stage and therefore any thing they say should be seen as a statement of their only feelings on a matter and nothing more. As an intellectual I find it rather distressing when people use words like democracy and have not the intelligence to know what those words mean in there proper context.
You some times have a better chance of finding out the truth in a scandal sheet costing ¢20 then you have believing much of what you find on the Internet (As a wise man once said "One step from been called liable, two steps away from a crack in the face with a baseball bat").
_______________________________________________________________
Thats what I think on the matter weather its right, wrong or indifferent a basic rule of thumb that I use is that every thing is suspect until verified other with cold, hard empiric, peer reviewed data: and I tell people that what I say is what I mean and that I might hurt you feelings but at least I'm real and that the alternative is for them to in so many words "Take a long walk off a short peer".
::)
Cyber-Angel
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on January 26, 2008, 03:28:24 AM
This is one of the most blatant peaces of Anti-American propaganda I have ever seen
How can an American be anti_American?
@CA - Not sure who you're calling anti-American, etc. Maybe Mitnick. I surely doubt it. He's probably a voice of many who see this sort of progression. Democracy doesn't exist as it was meant to exist. Maybe it never has anywhere. Who cares to argue that point?
As far as the stuff about Rockefeller, it's not conspiracy. It's reality. As a kid, it was people saying something similar (as you have) about consipiracy theorists and yet it was true all along. All Rockefeller ever cared about was a world government of elite wealthy doing as they please at the expense of the rest of the 99.9% of the planet. This is reality. And it's abominable. God curse it, for perhaps only he can.
This political discussion has managed to remain pretty civil thus far (surprisingly). Please keep it that way folks. No reporting to Homeland Security. ;)
- Oshyan
Quote from: JimB on January 26, 2008, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on January 26, 2008, 03:28:24 AM
This is one of the most blatant peaces of Anti-American propaganda I have ever seen
How can an American be anti_American?
This is what is against what traditional america stands for (most americans tend to be very traditional) apart from the secular far-left who wish to change the country in such a radical way that the model of democracy would eventually fail and it would end up being more of a quazi-socialist state. You can be an american but follow an anti-american ideology which can break the traditions and ideals of what this country was founded upon.
There are anti-american people living here who hate this country while others are not hateful but want highly progressive change none the less.
This is an much as i am going to say on the subject because the last thing i want is to get into a complex discussion of the facts vs fiction. I trust The New York Times as much as i trust Fidel Castro to write for Forbes Magazine.
Y'all have fun now, yah here. ;D
Quote from: Sethren on January 26, 2008, 05:49:38 PM
Quote from: JimB on January 26, 2008, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on January 26, 2008, 03:28:24 AM
This is one of the most blatant peaces of Anti-American propaganda I have ever seen
How can an American be anti_American?
This is what is against what traditional america stands for (most americans tend to be very traditional)
I understand that. But I have American friends who are what you would seem to call very 'traditional', and with whom I don't see eye to eye with on some subjects, and likewise they with me. However, as much as they don't agree with what I say, they've told me they'd fight to the death for me to be able to say it, which I find to be at odds with threats of Homeland Security when a journalist writes a critical piece.
Explanation Time (Rare Occurrence Here...So Enjoy). My argument was that the tone and contents of the article was its self Anti-American, so since the author wasn't mentioned by name then I can not see how that came up, if there is inference in my original post (which I don't think there is) then some one is going to have to ex plane the metaphysics of it to me, as I think (IMHO) my phraseology was clear as to my intent, each word selected to deliver its intended impact.
If by democracy it is meant the classical Greek ideal model of that meaning, then no I don't think that it is (for now at least) achievable, but is a goal that should be worked incrementally toward with the stated aim of been reached in future. Terrorism will always be with us unless you tackle the route causes of it, such as disaffection and social injustice; also this whole thing about about labeling people as terrorists dose have a historical compression and that is how woman (Notably Midwives, but not restricted only to them) where accused of Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, different times, different places and people but basically the same thing.
What we have here is a clash of two fundamentally different cultures and ways of thinking which both have their valid and invalid points of view, one is trying to prevent two many outside influences from eroding what it sees as core values such as faith while the other is trying to protect its people while trying to spread its influence to places where it is weak at this time.
The way you can look at it is this what we call a terrorist some one else might call that same person a freedom fighter, that is to say form their point of view what they are doing at that moment in time seems like the best thing to do, about a given situation or set of grievances at the time; as to them other methods (More peaceful methods) do not seem to be the way forward: cold hard hindsight while all well and good dose not help make an already tense situation better, also history is repleat with missed opportunities and what might have beens.
_____________________________________________________________________
Hope that clears the air a little, with debates like this there has to be opposing view points (Fore Vs Against) which is what I try to do; if there was confusion then that was not my intent there are things that I feel strongly about such as in the article that started this thread, though I am not an American doesn't preclude me form standing up for that fine nation should it be needed.
8)
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
LOL ;D
Quote from: Sethren on January 26, 2008, 05:49:38 PM
I trust The New York Times as much as i trust Fidel Castro to write for Forbes Magazine.
Y'all have fun now, yah here. ;D
Unless I haven't been clear, I believe the United States of America has the best government on the planet. In a confusing world filled with wrong intentions and crooked gangsters, the U.S. has done more good than harm overall. There are some really good people here.
The US has a great basis for having a free society. Being a constitutional republic, the president is sworn to uphold the constitution even if that protects a tiny minority of people but that's the point. The founding fathers thought that document through very carefully. Everything in it is well considered. Any breach of it is a breach of people's freedom.
As for any EU constitution. That's simply a colossal joke. The original document I think was over 400 pages long. There is over 10 thousand pages of EU documents. Nobody can understand all this. You can not know your rights which are actually extremely suspect. The EU is really a corrupt polit bureau style organization intending to take over the whole of Europe and beyond. This, by the way, is why they will be changing it to just "The Union". It's all done by stealth. North Africa, Middle East etc, they want to carry on expanding. Big government doesn't work. What we need to do is trade and try to agree on environmental issues. Massively centralizing our governments will lead to dictatorships and catastrophe. George Orwell (1984) and Aldous Huxley (Brave New World) wrote those books because they knew the people who were intent on implementing these agendas. It is not all a false conspiracy theory. They may not be conspiring to the level that many theorists suggest but they are working to a similar agenda. They increase their own power at the expense of everyone else's liberty. They think they can improve the world. They even think they can mess with life itself via genetic engineering. This is the ultimate arrogance. Do they ever stop to think about the fact that all the species on the planet fine tuned their own genes to survive through millions of years of evolution. No. scientists think they can do better than this in the bat of an eyelid. Many of these technologies are good. Helping cure diseases etc but when they start to mess with peoples individuality then it's all over for the human race. No diversity. No genius. Maybe this is simply an inevitability? Any species that can not fit into its environment becomes extinct. This is the human race.
Money is a key issue which I think is what people should really concentrate on when looking into these issues. One important story to know about, because it is followed everywhere, is that in 1913 the US government handed over the creation of money to a private federal reserve, against the original dream of the founding fathers who realized this would eventually totally corrupt everything. This is why the dollar is now worth about 2% of it's 1913 value. Several actions throughout the years have led to this. Too many to talk about here. In the UK we handed this power over even earlier. In fact we were the corrupting model to follow and we have been with many issues. Things like recessions and depressions are about transference of wealth - from the poor and middle classes to the rich. They are created by fiat money systems. Then, once governments don't need to care what the people think because the whole democratic methods do not allow people to have a voice, they can take everything from you. Freedom can not be taken for granted.
It's bad to get into anti-American charges unless someone is definitely expressing anti-Americanism. Criticism of the US government does not necessarily mean ant-Americanism since many Americans will not be supporting what the government does. Similar things are going on in other countries. The problems are global. The US will get more criticism because it's the most powerful country. Great Britain (where I come from) was responsible for all sorts of present day trouble. Initially carving up the Middle East for example. Literally drawing lines on maps and messing up millions of lives.
These things have been going on forever. Psychopaths controlling everything but things are different now. We face completely global problems. Imagine a world dictatorship or a world controlled by banks. Who is going to oppose any of their methods? There is no opposing side. It is a mad concept. What will a world army be for - to suppress any opposition who will be called "terrorists" which will cover anything whether violent or not. A global army or any huge "union army" is the dictator's dream. A civilian rise in some part of the US? They'll send in troops from the other side of the world who haven't a clue what is happening. What do you think the initial idea of the UN was? A tool created by the globalists. The land where the UN building is was donated by, guess who? The Rockefellers and designed by their architect. By stealth this was meant to eventually be in control of a world army. It just hasn't got there yet. The Rockefellers get a lot of stick and there are plenty of others involved. You might ask what is wrong with them donating to these things. Well, when you read quotes from these people talking about New World Order, unelected world government controlled by elite families and bankers, reducing population by 80%, endless highly controversial ideas, it starts to look very suspect. Every single idea no matter how good or bad, if it is a step to world government you can bet these families are funding it. Maybe it's just money? Well that's why I say the root problem is money policy. Our previous world wars were funded by bankers but I mean from inception not after they started. They often fund both sides. George Bush's grandfather funded the nazis. Concentration camp slaves actually laboured for one company he funded. He made a fortune. Seems the Bush family are experts at war profiteering. Catch 22 is another good book to read.
Also, as it stands at the moment, where are all these terrorists? I originally come from Northern Ireland. You'd hear bombs going off all the time. My dad had to check under his car for bombs because he worked for a British company which did eventually get bombed and by the way these bombs were largely paid for by US IRA supporters. Does this statement mean I'm anti-American. No, but it's an example of hypocrisy at work that we all need to be aware of. The IRA attacked the rest of Britain as well but they did not have all these lock people up without charge or trial terror laws, at least not outside Northern Ireland. Where are all these islamic terrorists? The IRA were much worse. However, there may not be many terrorists now but did you know that in Palestine (or rather Gaza and the West Bank since there is really no Palestine) there are now loads of children called Osama. Who is to blame for that? The Palestinians have been treated abysmally. You can't reasonably deny that. Palestinians and Israelis should be able to live in a single state that is not zionist. It's all totally wrong. I'm an atheist by the way. Extreme fundamentalist religion is a disgrace no matter if Islamic or Christian or whatever. I've seen it in action in Northern Ireland. I can't understand why people need to follow some ideology that is not their own thought. We are social animals that should naturally know what is right to get on with our neighbours but that gets brainwashed out of us.
Unfortunately what seems like "anti-Americanism" is something that may grow. That's primarily because the US is meddling militarily although it's underpinned by financial meddling. Saddam Hussein starting trading oil in euros. Iran is setting up an oil exchange to do the same thing. Even Venezuela are planning the same thing. See any pattern here? If all oil was traded in euros it would cause great problems in the US but are current policies really helping the matter? Of course oil sold in euros is good for the EU hence why some european countries opposed the war but is the EU any good anyway? The $ is now backed up by military force not gold or anything else. The US and everywhere else should invest heavily in reducing reliance on oil. That would help with a heap of problems. Saddam invaded Kuwait because of problems involving Kuwait lending Iraq huge amounts of money to fight Iran. They wanted this money back and they were apparently stealing Iraqi oil. Saddam was actually encouraged to invade Kuwait which was obviously a wrong move but the meddling has been going on for decades. When he shouted traitors before he got hanged you can see what he meant. It'll also be very difficult to create democracy in Iraq or at least in anything like a near future. There are too many different factions. You never hear the real facts in the news. There is no history attached to what they tell you. It's always told in short loops. "Concision" it's called, no background info. In other words, propaganda. There is an unbelievable history of western meddling in these Middle Eastern countries.
In my opinion the problem with our society is that the more psychopathic or empathy-less you are the more our society allows you to succeed into power positions where not caring about others is a boon. The number of literally psychopathic leaders we have had is absurd. One major root of this problem is our financial systems. Money belongs to the people not a bunch of unaccountable billionaires (actually trillionaires in many cases - you don't learn this. Read the David Rockefeller quote in my previous message. Bill Gates is a comparatively very poor) creating our monetary policy from private central banks. They have self serving agendas and they are often born into a wealth where money is no object. They spend their time dreaming up ways to have even more power. Ways to "save the world". If millions die it's of no matter. Typing digits into computers to change the amount of money from thin air, debasing it's value or whatever way they decide to massively transfer wealth from one group to another and everyone walks into the con time and time again but people are greedy. They sell themselves. One function of true islamic law is morally very respectable in my opinion. You can't charge interest when you lend money. Money usury (interest) is a core of our problem. This is why Jesus overturned the tables in the temple. They were Jewish of course so mention this and you'll probably be labeled anti-semitic but then I'm kind of anti all religion or at least any ideology that suppresses another groups right to peacefully think and do what they want but "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It doesn't take a study of christianity or any religion to see the obvious in that statement.
Anyway. Long message but I'm very interested in these issues. So should everybody be. I think these discussions are good, especially in forums like this because if you go where everyone knows everything then it's not actually as constructive. I also think the United States can possibly lead the way again and show the world how to get out of it's impending disaster but not with it's present government. Did you know that if Hillary Clinton becomes president then the US will have been controlled by two families for over 30 years because under Ronald Reagan, George Bush senior was vice president and most people think he was running the show. What do you think the founding fathers would say about this? As for the EU countries, I have less hope. The EU is bad for Europeans and bad for the US but the controlling influences are "global". They care no more about the US than any other country. Hence the North American Union. Globalist ideas are not all bad but it depends how they are achieved. At present the way is no good. This is especially shown by the fact that many things are being forced through quickly because people are becoming more aware of it and oppose it. This is largely due to the net but you can be sure they are working on ways to try to suppress this. Our leaders want to use technology to control what we do but if we use it to even find out what they are doing then that's no good. This says it all. You may gather that my opinions are pretty pessimistic.
The internet does get scarey at some point! I mean even online bank accounts are increasingly having problems with security issues as well. Have you guys heard about that? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6122116.stm theres an article from bbc and here is another one http://uk.moneto.eu/investment/current-accounts/fraud-protection/internet-security/
There just does not seem to be very much privacy anymore. When the internet first began it was amazing because people were able to get into contact so much easier, 'Globalization' if you like that term, and it made the flow of information across nations take seconds. Now it has quickly progressed to being able to get to much information and all the corruption of real world stealing and fraud as gone to the virtual net! Hopefully with people be aware of this it will slow. ;D
@efflux - It's interesting you mentioned, "Money usury (interest) is a core of our problem." This is why we're always up and down economically - because we tax our own countrymen through interest in loans. This will never change as long as we do this.