I was looking through stuff on my drive and decided to render this one bigger. It's an earlier state of a planet I called Red but I like the terrain in this without the redirect shader which I added later.
Post colour and shade work done in Lightzone.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/media/folder_178/file_1776100.jpg
Ahh, I miss your images 'round here. Any chance you'll be returning to full capacity soon? ;D
- Oshyan
Hi Oshyan.
Most likely yes (eventually) but TG2 is part of a larger workflow of things I'm doing. I've bitten off way more than I can chew in all the apps I've been using but that's how you find the right ones. I'm cutting some out now.
I usually push apps to extreme then drop back some just so I know how far you can go. Hence more of the crazy stuff I did previously in TG2.
I was looking through my folders of TG2 and Mojo images. One thing that is very clear is that the TG images, including ones from the old Terragen, have atmosphere and mood lacking in the Mojo ones. However, the Mojo stuff has beautiful complex form and grand scales due to this variety of form but atmosphere is what creates the mood. The Mojo stuff is somehow empty. For example no rays like in this latest TG2 render. Lighting and shadows in Mojo are poor and unrealistic compared to TG2. Even although my Mojo renders vastly out number the TG2 renders, I prefer the TG ones. but it depends on your style of work. Atmosphere and lighting are of primary importance for me.
Where I live, atmospheres like in this render are commonplace yet it seems impossible to get near this in any other computer app except TG2.
If you look at landscape paintings, usually the most important part is the atmosphere and lighting. You can get this more painterly effect in TG2. It doesn't look CG the way other apps do.
So I'm considering moving away from the TG2 planetary scale and importing Mojo terrains where I can get what Mojo does best. Since I am designing Mojo planet terrain for export I can easily go back and export more terrain for the same TG2 setup without having to redesign it. It'll fit as though I just moved to another place on the planet. I find developing terrain on planetary scale very frustrating in TG2 but easy in Mojo.
I've tried importing Mojo terrains and it works great but I haven't finished any scenes yet. TG2 can import big heightfields.
As a side note, Blender now has some really cool atmosphere settings. This render is done in Blender with a Mojo terrain mesh import but you can see this terrain is very "Mojo" looking so I am planning on continuing using Mojo terrains in other apps.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_9/file_416976.jpg
The down side is this - Mojoworld is now working in Linux Wine and working superbly. TG2 was pretty good to begin with but after several updates the Windows and Mac versions are rendering way faster, often up to 4 or 5 times faster now. I don't know why this is. At worst, Most apps under Wine render a bit slower but not way slower.
I was going to sell my Mac and go pure Linux but now TG2 is working extremely well on my Mac G5 dual. My Windows system is never used now. My next computer will be a fast PC but I don't want to use Windows. I want to go 100% Linux since all my apps are now performing great under Linux. TG2 is now the only one that isn't so I'm not sure what to do. I really don't want to buy another Mac even although I prefer them to PC Windows. I'm going to end up with an enormously powerful Linux system, using Blender, Mojo and Lightzone amongst others (audio software) but no TG2 performance unless it performs better on a new multi core Linux system but I don't know about that. For example it'll be 64 bit. Meshes from Mojo rendered in Blender like the one on the link will render in literally in seconds. As it stands, that render finished in well under a minute on a PIV so I'm sorted for building huge sets for animation which is my goal. There are all kinds of cool ways to composite stuff in Blender's node network. It's really a very cool app. Has anyone seen this:
http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/index.php/download/
I think this is really cool. MUCH better than the last Blender movie which was pretty poor in my opinion.
The performance issues may have something to do with the new multithreading. Try turning "max threads" in the Renderer Node to 1 or 0 and test against the default. Let us know if that seems to help.
- Oshyan
@efflux - I agree with Oshyan about wanting to see you around here more as well as your creative images.
I tried the threads thing but couldn't get any speed increases.
Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz 12 seconds
Linux Wine PIV HT 3.0 Ghz 50 seconds
Windows is now slower than the Mac but that's what I'd expect. However Linux is out the ball park now. It used to compare not too badly. I've tried various things. For example booting in to normal kernel rather than RT which I use for audio. I've tried changing Linux process priorities. No effect.
Mojoworld is performing great but Mojo is not multi core. I think when TG2 went multi core then running under Linux got way behind. I should get an older TG2 and make comparisons.
Running with 0 threads should be reasonably close to the non-multithreaded rendering.
- Oshyan
I tried 0 threads. It does seem to cut the time down by a few seconds. I can see that TG2 is using two threads though when I set it that way.
The good news is that TG2 Mac is now running extremely well so I never use the Windows version. The bad news is that I want to ditch both Mac and Windows now.
I've had so many issues with Windows in the past I'm sick of it especially with audio but Now Mac are falling behind as well. Buggy software etc.
Just memory management in Linux makes a laughing stock of OSX. Also, just dumping big files around takes a third of the time. Audio performance is actually "virtual studio" i.e. no discernible latency. I have giant drum banks loading fast into RAM and playing back in real time that can't even be used on my supposedly faster Mac. This is running VSTs under Wine!
Also, graphics cards for Mac cost way more. You see I can build an amazingly powerful Linux machine and run Blender at 64 bit. My graphics card in the PIV was cheap and bought on ebay, just to see how good that would be with Blender. I can actually sculpt meshes in Open GL in Blender. This Linux system running Blender is outperforming Modo on the Mac so it seems a no brainer that my next system will be Linux and perform amazingly.
Well, it's unfortunate that Linux performance is so poor at this point. For now we can't officially support it however. Perhaps other WINE/Linux users may have some advice?
- Oshyan
I understand it's obviously problematic for Planetside to make a Linux native version. It's not needed (yet).
However Linux is important. To give you an example. Mojoworld is only weeks into working on Linux and several users are using it on Linux including Dmyrty.
Lightzone which has a Linux version is also running better on my PIV than on my dual core Mac.
Luxology seem to have ditched the Linux version of Modo. The reason is always lack of demand but how do they know this? One thing is certain - that there will be no demand when comparable and free software is available for Linux. Then their argument will be correct. Bear in mind that a lot of this software like Blender also runs on Windows so the move to Linux becomes very easy.
I have used Logic for audio since it was running on PCs and owned by Emagic. Over time I must have spent over £1000 on this software which Apple are now wrecking. Bugs in latest version and performing like a slug compared to Linux apps like Ardour. They have totally ignored the users. Their whole understanding of how to deal with software like this is flawed. They simply used the code to create Garageband and gave Logic a nice Apple style UI complete with bugs that weren't there before. Garageband? What's the point. You can install Ardour on OSX complete with Audio Units support and soon to be complete MIDI. Then any sane person will question why even ever buy a Mac again. Superior and free Linux software is developing at a faster pace and on an OS that can be tuned to whatever you are using it for i.e. rt kernel for audio. No point in proprietary software anymore except stuff like TG2, Lightzone, Artrage etc. More unique software by small companies that aren't charging an arm and a leg and who fix bugs and listen to users.
Hi efflux, I'd like to help improve performance under Wine of course, even though we can't make an official commitment to support it right now. Can you give us some more specific render times with 0, 1, 2 and 4 threads? Then do the exact same thing on Windows and/or Mac? Preferably with a few different types of scene - some with clouds, some without, some with shadows, some without. At the very least I would like to know if performance is more closely matched between OSs when the max threads are 0, but being able to see how it scales up is important too. I also need to be sure that max threads 0 gives similar timings to max threads 1.
Here are results from the default TG2 as it opens and rendered at quick render - latest version on all systems. Two PIV 3.0 GHz HT with HT enabled and a G5 Dual core 2.0 GHz. Nothing else running except a notepad on Linux. You can see Linux is performing very poorly now in comparison. I don't think it has slowed with newer versions but Windows and Mac have radically increased especially Mac. The very latest TG2 is the best yet on Mac. If you need other tests - clouds etc let me know. Why would different scenes make a difference?
The first number is the threads, the second is the time (minutes.seconds)
Wine:
0 0.46
1 1.53
2 0.56
Then it's roughly the same 0.56
OSX:
0 0.17
1 0.17
2 0.12
Then it's always 0.12
Windows:
Always 15 seconds no matter what thread setting.
You'd understand why I'm railing against Windows and Mac if you were here. Imagine what it's like when you upgrade a computer but are forced to go back to a slower one - that's what it feels like for me going back to these Win/OSX systems. It's like hitting a traffic jam.
One difference I didn't mention is that the Windows system has a fairly bog standard ATI radeon graphics card but the Linux system has an VNidia Quadro FX 3000. I don't think this is too important except to say that a slow graphics card on Linux slows the TG2 UI. It only makes a major difference is heavy Open GL use like in Blender.
This is an interesting point. With every upgrade of Ubuntu and various software, the Linux system gets faster and faster with no hardware changes. Every upgrade of OSX seems to add more bloat and some apps are not performing as well.
I think I'll be taking a break from computers for a while. Although I haven't been posting here I have been working a lot.
99% of software is simply terrible.
There is literally only one superb 3D graphics app in my opinion and that is ZBrush. There are some potentially good ones (Modo). I do love TG2 and Mojoworld and I don't class them as bad apps but unique and creative apps. However the render times drive me crazy. You'd need an 8 core machine to get quick results with TG2. Waiting for final renders isn't so bad but it's the waiting while you constantly test render.
If Modo continues to fail to work on Linux Wine and they don't continue any Linux development then I may end up getting an 8 core Mac (or whatever max number of cores they are supplying at the time) which presumably would be superb with TG2. ZBrush is out for Mac now. ZBrush works great under Wine though. It all depends on Modo which is the only app that has the potential to rise above the sea of dreadful 3D animation apps. While I wait to see how that develops that I'll be working in Blender.
@efflux - I understand about software. Seems like much of it (not centering on any one app) is just so loosely thrown together and lied about it through advertising. This, in fact, was one of the things that attracted me to Terragen - the general support.
TG2 is a cool app. I've absolutely no real criticism of it at all. Planetside are doing a great job. The long render times are just how it is with landscape apps.
I've got very frustrated lately with computers. It's because I've been using Linux and free software which is in many cases streets ahead then for example, I go on the Modo forum where they are bashing Blender's UI. Blender's UI is great because they ignored conventions and made it better than other apps. They should take a closer look at Modo's UI first. It is a good app but overhyped. As for many of the other so called "industry standard" apps, I couldn't even bear to use them. I couldn't even install XSI on Linux it was such a licensing nightmare and I didn't even get any response from them about the issue. These are companies who want you to part with £1000s. They are in a cuckoo world. The proof is going to be in the pudding. You'll see this especially with Blender in the near future. I'm experimenting with some Linux renderers here. For example a new GPL one called Luxrender because the Blender render is a bit too simple for some stuff. This is the kind of quality that is coming out of Blender - rendered with Luxrender:
http://www.luxrender.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1166
There are various new builds coming from Blender with some new stuff including volumetrics. 2.5 is going to be a whole rebuild of the app.
I've also looked into buying a Mac and it just doesn't make sense anymore. My next system will be a PC running Linux.
The thing that is clearly obvious with open source software is that it's an attempt to make a tool as good as possible not to sell more than your rival or add more useless features to extort money for another upgrade. They do things that proprietary companies never do. If Adobe did some of the things they do with Gimp there would be uproar and lost sales before people realized the change might have been an improvement.
Luxology screwed up by trying to compete with ZBrush except all their lost time in attempting to do this meant that the important thing - animation, has been delayed. ZBrush had the last laugh by releasing a new demo I think the day after the new Modo or something like that. It was a mockery. A total wiping of the floor with all competition.
Thanks for reporting those results.
As to why different scenes would make a difference, well that's because they will use (or reduce efficiency in) different parts of the renderer by different amounts. Clouds, for example, use the Cloud Shader which has its own caches and calculations to make, and it also calls on the lighting systems of the renderer in different proportions, with different parameters, and with different levels of coherence between adjacent calls which will stress various caches differently. That's just scratching the surface. Different scenes take different amounts of time to render not only because of how "much" is in them but because of what's in them and how efficiently TG can handle different scenarios.
Since we don't know the reasons why multi-threading performance seems to be worse under Wine, it's helpful to narrow down which rendering systems (or at which scenarios) lead to less efficiency - efficiency relative to different thread settings and efficiency between OSs.
Matt
I also asked about disabling shadows, because disabling those would avoid using the ray tracer in the final pass (unless you have reflective surfaces) among other things, and it would reveal a lot of if we knew whether that made any difference to the relative render times between OSs or between thread settings.
Matt
Quote from: efflux on November 07, 2008, 03:23:42 PM
Wine:
0 0.46
1 1.53
2 0.56
That tells me there's something wrong with threading even when there's only 1 render thread. The time for 0 (which renders all buckets in the same thread as the GUI and render schedule) should be very close to the time for 1 (which renders buckets in a separate thread and only occasionally has to synchronise with the main thread). It gives me a good starting point.
Matt
OK thanks for the reply Matt.
I might run more tests. TG2 is the only further app Id like to get running under Wine with acceptable results.
As a matter of interest I just installed Modo on Linux Wine. it's not really usable because of a few UI issues but rendering speed is very good. In fact so good it would be worth running it just for rendering. This is the first rendering app I've installed where rendering has been equivalent To Windows.
Apologies for this but I must have used the wrong version of TG2 for the Linux test. Unless something else is different. I have just run a test on what is definitely the very latest 1.10.23.1. which I did have at the time of the last test. New results are as follows:
0 0.28
1 0.24
2 0.34
These are consistent though. I ran them a few times.
Disabling shadows causes Linux to catch up marginally against OSX to roughly one third longer time instead of twice the time or over. That is by comparing the new results from Linux. I must have started the wrong TG2 before running those first tests. There isn't any other explanation. I have tested more complex scenes but results seem fairly consistent. Clouds don't seem to make too much difference. I haven't done any new tests on Windows but I know the previous test times anyone. It would obviously be a fairer test.
Just some more points. The drop down menu in the node graph is now functioning correctly in Wine. In previous versions of Wine you had to use the arrow keys to navigate them. No icons are visable anywhere in the main UI but this is of little relevance once you know where stuff is. The only issue is that I now get random crashes with Wine 1.1.7. These things are problems that will sort. It's always UI. Every so often UI issues get fixed then sometimes a few issues revert back to a problem but it gets better with every Wine release. I don't think it will be long before it's 100% perfect except for the render times.
OK, those results look much better. In your shadow vs. non-shadow tests how many threads were rendering? Also, how are you controlling the threads? The most reliable way to force it to use a specific number of threads is to set both minimum threads and maximum threads to that number.
Matt
You Linux machine is P4 HT, so that only has one core? (HT can't really be treated as another first-class citizen when it comes to complex rendering). If that's true it makes sense that the render became less efficient when you tried to use 2 threads instead of 1. It's not really fair to test this against a dual-core Mac.
Matt
I know the Windows machine was doing 15 seconds (at all thread settings) on the default when you open TG2 so that's what I'm comparing with. It's simply that the Windows machine (same PIV specs) isn't even hooked up to a monitor or keyboard. I never use it now.
24 seconds under Wine as compared to 15 under Windows is still not too good but certainly better.
Yes my Windows machines are a single CPU with HT.
An interesting test will be when I get possibly an 8 core or whatever is available at the time.
Probably a quad core will be best because although 8 cores may be out by the time I build a new system, they will most likely be too expensive.
Quote from: efflux on November 10, 2008, 11:47:59 AM
24 seconds under Wine as compared to 15 under Windows is still not too good but certainly better.
What about a longer render? With such a short render time it could be dominated by things that become less significant in more difficult renders. Possibly.
Matt
I've tried rendering some lower size shots from the render linked to in this thread but I'll test that further.
I'm busy experimenting with a new app I found that works perfect on Linux Wine. Amazing software especially what is in the latest alpha version. Volumetric sculpting. I'll post in the open discussion about it.