well Their a load of guys over on daz who think vue is better and they sent me this pic saying I would like to see terragen do this
(http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/media/folder_176/file_1758999.jpg)
please can someone replicate this image in tg2 I know it can do better ;D
It cant do much better, this is a very accomplished image however it can be done and done well. TG2 can certainly do better water and for some reason I don't like the bird (funky stork/heron :) ) Oh and buzzes recent work on the bui;dings is way ahead :(
Richard
This could be really funny. Especially if you send them a really good TG render for them to replicate in Vue ;)
http://lucbianco.free.fr/jalbum/Terragen%202/2008/slides/TGD906.html
http://www.planetside.co.uk/images/stories/planetside/glacier_vallery_saurav_subedi.jpg
http://www.planetside.co.uk/images/stories/planetside/displacement.jpg
http://www.planetside.co.uk/images/stories/planetside/chimney_rock_ryan_archer.jpg
http://www.planetside.co.uk/images/stories/planetside/tgd845_luc_bianco.jpg
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=518&g2_serialNumber=2
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/buzzzz-mt-copy-3_resize.jpg.html
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/njen_sunset_field.jpg.html
http://lucbianco.free.fr/jalbum/Terragen%202/2008/slides/TGD905.html
http://lucbianco.free.fr/jalbum/Terragen%202/2009/slides/TGD1001.html
Quote from: wetbanana on April 30, 2009, 07:10:19 PM
well Their a load of guys over on daz who think vue is better and they sent me this pic saying I would like to see terragen do this
...
please can someone replicate this image in tg2 I know it can do better ;D
Is the creator of the image willing to share the trees, grasses and the building and the terrain? Otherwise, it would be hard to compare.
I agree with Cyphyr, that this render is really good. Would you say that's standard Vue quality, or is this above and beyond the average Vue render quality?
I would also be interested in how long it took the creator of the image to construct the scene, and also the render time.
Again, a nice image. Congratulations to the guy who made it.
Cheers,
Frank
Quote from: wetbanana on April 30, 2009, 07:10:19 PM
well Their a load of guys over on daz..
Your avatar is making me mad. Please can you have it stand still? It really goes on my nerves. Please. :D
I think that the few people who do exceptional Vue renders could excel incredibly if they gave TG2 two months. It's just a possibility...
um Well i think this is about maximum vue 6 render abilities and I don't think so with the trees and grasses we can impovise though and the house well maybe we can find something similar I have a beach house for daz that looks like this put i payed for that ::)
and its almost certainly been post worked with that kind of ethereal lighting
This image is from Ken Wellings (KenWas) and he's an accomplished Vue artist. So what we're looking at here is really an above average quality image.
I think he didn't spend that much work/time on this one. I've seen better images from him before.
However, with the same models available TG2 can easily match this and probably do even better. The clouds for starters aren't that good (oh yes, here we go again :)) and the lighting is a bit flat somehow.
Martin
Quote from: JimB on April 30, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
This could be really funny. Especially if you send them a really good TG render for them to replicate in Vue ;)
I already have!
I sent them this
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/yellowstone_saurav_subedi.jpg.html
(http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/yellowstone_saurav_subedi.jpg.html) ...........!!!
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on April 30, 2009, 07:36:33 PM
This image is from Ken Wellings (KenWas) and he's an accomplished Vue artist. So what we're looking at here is really an above average quality image.
I think he didn't spend that much work/time on this one. I've seen better images from him before.
However, with the same models available TG2 can easily match this and probably do even better. The clouds for starters aren't that good (oh yes, here we go again :)) and the lighting is a bit flat somehow.
Martin
well its a vue 6 render you can tell with the clouds and the lighting
Vue 6 or 7, whatever....they asked to see if TG is capable of something like this and thus my answer was and still is yes, and better.
It seems you're going to make them cry for mercy with that example-image for them to match :)
Quote from: calico on April 30, 2009, 07:28:17 PM
I think that the few people who do exceptional Vue renders could excel incredibly if they gave TG2 two months. It's just a possibility...
Well we've all produced images that are, shall we say, "under par", lol
Remember Bryce anyone ? I remember being so excited and proud of images I made in Bryce that I would not dare to show today :)
This is a good example of the fact that it is not the software but the artist that makes great images. I hope the artist who made this image is proud of his work and recognises (albeit quietly :) ) that the quality of the work is down to themselves rather than the software.
Would be fun to try to emulate but I fear the comparison would be unfair, we'd just end up getting inspired and go and do something entirely differant lol :)
Richard
well I think that image is amazing he must know vue in and out to produce an image like that :o
Some of the Vue renders I have seen are spectacular their is this guy who does renders that look like paintings not realistic but a work of art I mean I personally don't like realism If i wanted to make a picture ofa forest with mountain i would go out and take a photo it would only appeal to me if it had a big planet over the top of it or a sci fi getaway tucked into the trees but that's just my taste ;D
oh and yeah i used to use bryce 2 lol that was my first piece of 3d software!
Sounds like a challenge to me. ;) Yeah, Ken is very good with Vue. I have used Vue and after about 2 months got pretty good with it simply because it's a much easier program to learn. I personally think anyone who thinks Vue is better, really means it's easier. I'm sure some will take offense to that, but that's the way I see it.
FrankB, Martins avatar was getting on my nerves so bad I disabled avatars in the preferences section. That one of wetbanana's makes me want to take a hammer to it. Grrrrrrr Must an old age thing? LOL
Later, got to run and find a beach house and a heron. :D
Quote from: wetbanana on April 30, 2009, 07:48:25 PM
Some of the Vue renders I have seen are spectacular their is this guy who does renders that look like paintings not realistic but a work of art
One of these guys? Nice stuff, but still possible in TG2.
http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/featured/inspiration-dominic-davison/
http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/featured/inspiration-karin-eszterhas/
Two very inspiring artists, I particularly like the first one :)
Richard
yup this guy!
(http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/Davison/DD_Woodland_Waterway.jpg)
:o :o :o
Quote from: wetbanana on April 30, 2009, 08:00:49 PM
That is an amazing oil-painting!
Yes indeed :)
However, I agree with you, very nice and that would be very difficult to reproduce :)
yeah Alot of those pictures are photoshop though it say comnining vue and photoshop i would like to see the images before they went through ps
That picture you posted isn't Vue or Photoshop, it is a real oil-painting ;)
oh woops ;D thought it was too good to be true!
Shit happens ;D It's late! (at least, it is here)
I see you now replaced it for something else, nice one too :) Inspirational indeed :)
I show people Terragen images and they ask me where the place is, they don't see them as computer generated. I recon that Vue image while far better than anything I could even imagine doing, still looks computer generated. If we printed off a load of real photos, Terragen images, and that Vue image and asked people to pick out the computer generated ones, that Vue image would be most likely to be picked.
Quote from: JimB on April 30, 2009, 07:56:50 PM
Quote from: wetbanana on April 30, 2009, 07:48:25 PM
Some of the Vue renders I have seen are spectacular their is this guy who does renders that look like paintings not realistic but a work of art
One of these guys? Nice stuff, but still possible in TG2.
http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/featured/inspiration-dominic-davison/
http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/featured/inspiration-karin-eszterhas/
Does this guy go by the name of Dom1 on the renderosity forums? When you started talking about a guy who uses vue to create renders that look like paintings that's the first person I thought about. Now that you've posted those images I think it's him even more.
Two major things about Vue... 1) Vue is now content-ware much like Daz Studio. So, they give you a restricted Vue 7 Pioneer version for free and you buy content for it produced by others through the Vue store. If you buy certain content (for enough money), Vue 7 becomes 'unlocked' (you get all of the features). 2) The basics provided in Vue 7 Pioneer are just that, basic. You cannot come close to producing a scene of the visual stunning that TG2 does out-of-the-box. There's also no way to produce a scene anywhere close to the farm image provided in this thread with the included objects given in the free version. I personally found its visual interface is not intuitive. I supposed after I worked with it for a while, I'd figure it out, but it just doesn't work for me in the way that I like to work.
The idea of the reinvented Vue business model is interesting. It is designed to make money by selling content (houses, trees, plants, etc) and use the application as a springboard vehicle for those sales. It's interesting in that Daz Studio has shown it to be a successful model (as long as the content is extremely high quality). Smith Micro (Poser) has tried this with Content Paradise but their content comes nowhere near the quality of Daz. I haven't invested in any Vue content yet, but some of it does appear compelling. I just found that Vue's add-ons to open the package up to the full version were a bit costly in my book... especially when you start buying trees, bushes and plants. I might do this at some point when I have some spare cash, but I already have an excellent landscape generation tool and it's called TG2.
Anyway, the point is, what makes that scene isn't the quality of the render, it's the quality of the objects IN the render. To be convincing, a plant needs to look like a plant. A house like a house, etc. That's what makes or breaks a scene. If the object is of low quality, then the whole image appears digital or somehow 'wrong'. TG2 can easily produce the same scene, the question is... can it do it better? Probably not... but that's mostly because of the plant, house, bird objects that Vue had no hand in the creation of. Vue's lighting and atmosphere system is probably its best aspect and that's what the image creator took advantage of in the farmhouse scene.
As for the future of TG2, TG2 probably needs to become content-ware as well. I would like to see Planetside set up a store involving the sale of TGO objects for use in TG2 renders. By setting up such a store, Planetside could take a cut of any TGO objects sold and increase how much they make from TG2. They might even make enough to reduce the cost of TG2 and make it up on the sale of content. But, TG2 also needs to allow for a plug-in system so that the sale of third party plug-ins is possible. Planetside also needs to allow the easy export/import of node networks as presets within TG2. So, if you want to drop in clouds produced by someone else, you simply import a cloud preset. These presets can, again, be sold on a Planetside content store for purchase by users who want to produce a scene.
So, then, the whole thing becomes much more focused on the content produced than about the application itself... which is probably as it should be. Such a store would also allow for much more easy location of objects for use within TG2. Right now, it's not nearly as convenient in that we all have to find .OBJ files and them import them. With a TGO store, it's a one click download and you're rapidly producing a scene. The other good thing is that a store can entice existing 3D modeling artists to begin creation of objects for sale on a Planetside store. There are plenty of artists who sell on Daz, Content Paradise and now Vue's store that would likely begin producing content for Terragen 2 were a store to become available.
Thanks.
--
Brian
A pleasant image, but it is clear for me without party taken which it misses cruelly of realism! (the first image).
the second is much more realistic!
@commorancy
QuotePlanetside also needs to allow the easy export/import of node networks as presets within TG2.
This is already possible as clip files.
QuoteSo, if you want to drop in clouds produced by someone else, you simply import a cloud preset. These presets can, again, be sold on a Planetside content store for purchase by users who want to produce a scene.
FrankB, Tangled-Universe and Seth are already doing this via New World Digital Art. I believe Luc Bianco also sells a preset for Canyons. So this is already happening.
Quote from: domdib on May 01, 2009, 05:34:26 AM
@commorancy
QuotePlanetside also needs to allow the easy export/import of node networks as presets within TG2.
This is already possible as clip files.
QuoteSo, if you want to drop in clouds produced by someone else, you simply import a cloud preset. These presets can, again, be sold on a Planetside content store for purchase by users who want to produce a scene.
FrankB, Tangled-Universe and Seth are already doing this via New World Digital Art. I believe Luc Bianco also sells a preset for Canyons. So this is already happening.
It's already happening, yes. But, not in a single convenient place. You have to go track them down or know how to find them. Having a store that's run and sanctioned by Planetside makes it far easier for TG2 owners to find content in one single place. Right now, there's Ashundar and, as you mentioned New World Digital Art. There might be others sites as well. Creating a single place where it all can be sold and perhaps even building an ecommerce interface right into TG2 for direct import makes it far simpler to get scenes together fast. So, if you need a farmhouse along with some field grass for your scene, you browse, buy, import and render. No conversion required. No hassling with shaders. No scaling issues. No fumbling for texture maps. Perhaps a lot of people like doing this sort of thing with 3D objects, but many people don't want this. They want to have what they need at their fingertips. Granted, if I could buy a farmhouse for $15 versus having to spend an hour locating one, converting it, importing it and fumbling with shaders and textures, I'd probably spend the $15. That's why a single store for TG2 is important rather than having people randomly do it on whatever sites across the net.
As far as clip files go, it needs a better import process. For example, to import clouds, it should be as simple as clicking on the 'Atmsophere' button, then under that area, right-click import. That's how it should work. Having 'insert clip file' off of the main menu isn't intuitive, nor does it suggest where those nodes might end up. It also dumps the nodes right into the nodes area potentially on top of everything else. The objects that are imported should stay encapsulated as a single imported group that's separate from any other nodes so that they can be easily deleted as a single group. That way, if you decide you want to remove imported generated cloud bank, it's an easy delete. This is especially true when the node layout is complex. Granted, if the designer is thoughtful enough to put the nodes into its own grouped area, then that may make it import better. But, right now that's left up to each designer to do. TG2 should automatically know to import any clip files under its own imported node group for easy deletion. TG2 should also allow the designer to label the 'type' of object that it is (object, shader, atmosphere, etc) so that the group appears under one of the buttons. Again, this makes it an easy delete.
Thanks.
Well, if we're talking about objects, a place to get some would be cowl.
But Clip Files.... I don't think its even a good idea to share them at all...
If you have a site where everybody can simply download a terrain, surface files, objects, clouds and water settings... than you don't really create an image.
Thats just combining the work of others. Even if you buy all this, its not a big thing to just combine something and render it. There is no... own work.
Maybe many people see this different.
Quote from: commorancy on May 01, 2009, 07:14:51 AM
Quote from: domdib on May 01, 2009, 05:34:26 AM
FrankB, Tangled-Universe and Seth are already doing this via New World Digital Art. I believe Luc Bianco also sells a preset for Canyons. So this is already happening.
It's already happening, yes. But, not in a single convenient place.
Actually, what's happening now is the beginning of the creation of a partner ecosystem around TG2. It may happen the way you described, or in another and maybe better ways.
I think that we users and Planetside.. they don't want to become exactly like Vue.
Eventually, individual contributors to that ecosystem may or may not join forces. At the moment, we are on our way to exactly do that. NWDA is gathering the best artists for TG2 (and growing) to create a de-facto high quality TG2 ecosystem side on the commercial end of it all. We're small still, but we're growing, so that in a while we'll have a big portfolio to choose from. So this may become one of the places you're looking at.
But equally important is the free sharing that we all do, here and in other places. Although I run the commercial store at NWDA, I still share presets and techniques. Some of them I actually develop consciuosly just for free distribution. I also encourage my partners to continue to share things.
Never forget that TG2 has just launched, and this is all the early beginnings of it. We don't have to rush headless, just to eventually become the same rip-off as the Vue ecosystem apparently is.
We have the chance, and the obligation, to make it better. And in my mind, that includes a healthy mix of communities, free sharing and productized "solutions", such as some high end presets and objects.
Amen :)
Frank
Quote from: Goms on May 01, 2009, 07:27:33 AM
Well, if we're talking about objects, a place to get some would be cowl.
But Clip Files.... I don't think its even a good idea to share them at all...
If you have a site where everybody can simply download a terrain, surface files, objects, clouds and water settings... than you don't really create an image.
Thats just combining the work of others. Even if you buy all this, its not a big thing to just combine something and render it. There is no... own work.
Maybe many people see this different.
Actually, clip files would be fine to share as long as they can be protected. If they are encapsulated into an opaque container that can be imported, that would allow for protection I'm sure some authors who go through a lot of work to create a node sequence don't necessarily want to share their 'code'. So, an opaque object that can't be viewed would be best (at least for selling purposes). Otherwise, if the node code can be dissected, then it basically allows anyone to see how it was done, copy it and perhaps even sell it themselves. Obviously, visibility of the code should be up to the author, though. If the author wants to share his/her node sequence, then that should also be allowed.
As far as whole scenes go, yes, it makes sense not to sell those. However, if someone spends time building the Grand Canyon and wants to sell that as a clip file, I don't see any issue with this. That's where the store personnel object review and the terms of service of the store would have to come into play. So, for example, in order to become a seller, you'd have to agree to upload only individual components... (clouds only, surfaces only, objects, etc) and not whole scenes.
As far as combining the work of others, that's what people are already doing and have been doing for years with Poser, Daz Studio and most recently Vue and TrueSpace. So, I don't inherently see anything wrong in utilizing the work of others to produce a scene as long as the composition of the final scene is yours alone. There's something to be said for creating everything yourself.. but have you tried to create a human model with the complexity of Daz's Michael 4 or Victoria 4? You'd spend the better part of 6 months just modeling it. Then, another several months trying to produce the necessary texture maps to make it look realistic.
It's doubtful that the farm scene that opened this thread was 100% created by the person who composed and rendered the scene. The 3D grass, trees and farmhouse were likely produced by others.
Thanks.
Quote from: Goms on May 01, 2009, 07:27:33 AM
Well, if we're talking about objects, a place to get some would be cowl.
But Clip Files.... I don't think its even a good idea to share them at all...
If you have a site where everybody can simply download a terrain, surface files, objects, clouds and water settings... than you don't really create an image.
Thats just combining the work of others. Even if you buy all this, its not a big thing to just combine something and render it. There is no... own work.
Maybe many people see this different.
I will take the stance that that's bull#*5&. - NO personal offense meant, Goms!
Goms, I know that this thinking has somehow spread through the German hobbyist network, but let me tell you that it's just common sense to use pre-defined elements to create a new whole.
When you build a house, do you feel guilty and un-creative because someone else has made the bricks for the walls and the glass for the windows? Probably not.
And when you render a scene with TG2, do you feel guilty and un-creative because you're using Klas oak tree in it?
You'll get my point.
I recommend to let go of that thought. It takes the fun out of things :D
Cheers,
Frank
If I'm correct TG2 will support macro-functionality somewhere in the future which will allow users/creators to encapsulate node-sequences into one single macro-node. It should then be relatively easy to protect the actual content of the macro and only allow other users to use the parameters offered by the macro.
Quote from: FrankB on May 01, 2009, 07:46:44 AM
Actually, what's happening now is the beginning of the creation of a partner ecosystem around TG2. It may happen the way you described, or in another and maybe better ways.
I think that we users and Planetside.. they don't want to become exactly like Vue.
Actually, I don't like Vue's partner system. Of all of the partner systems I've used, I prefer Daz's system and interface. It's easy to search and easy to find items. The licensing terms are very clear as well. You can use the purchased objects in 2D illustrations, but the actual purchased 3D models (and associated resources) themselves cannot be sold.
Perhaps this store/partner concept can be done better. But, I'm not sure how that would work. There are a certain amount of freebies given away in any content creation system. But, in order to attract the most people into the partner system, there has to be a commercial portion where people can share in the profits of items they create. And specifically, share them to people with like minded interests (i.e., sell them to people who own TG2). Of course, that's dependent upon how many copies of TG2 have been sold.
QuoteEventually, individual contributors to that ecosystem may or may not join forces. At the moment, we are on our way to exactly do that. NWDA is gathering the best artists for TG2 (and growing) to create a de-facto high quality TG2 ecosystem side on the commercial end of it all. We're small still, but we're growing, so that in a while we'll have a big portfolio to choose from. So this may become one of the places you're looking at.
Could be... we'll have to wait and see. I'd like to see some kind of involvement from Planetside in this, though.
QuoteBut equally important is the free sharing that we all do, here and in other places. Although I run the commercial store at NWDA, I still share presets and techniques. Some of them I actually develop consciuosly just for free distribution. I also encourage my partners to continue to share things. Never forget that TG2 has just launched, and this is all the early beginnings of it. We don't have to rush headless, just to eventually become the same rip-off as the Vue ecosystem apparently is. We have the chance, and the obligation, to make it better. And in my mind, that includes a healthy mix of communities, free sharing and productized "solutions", such as some high end presets and objects.
Amen :)
Frank
Yes, TG2 has just launched (sort of). It's not like the pre-purchase hasn't been available for quite some time. But yes, a partner ecosystem will be necessary to bring in other artists who otherwise would never have looked twice at TG2. There are many artists who do want to produce high quality scenes, but they aren't technical enough to write node sequences themselves. So, they rely on the more technical people to come up with cool looking cloudscapes and terrains. That allows them to concentrate on producing the images rather than the details of producing node networks. Which is why a store with objects is important to TG2's adoption by artists.
Thanks.
--
Brian
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 01, 2009, 07:56:44 AM
If I'm correct TG2 will support macro-functionality somewhere in the future which will allow users/creators to encapsulate node-sequences into one single macro-node. It should then be relatively easy to protect the actual content of the macro and only allow other users to use the parameters offered by the macro.
Cool to hear. I think this will become very important in a commercial marketplace.
Thanks.
--
Brian
To come alongside of Frank's explanation about Clip Files, the original message from Planetside about this TG2 system is that there would be builders of internal node networks and another group of people who wouldn't want to get into those details. I'm somewhere in between. But, just because I have a load of clip files doesn't make me less or more creative. I might not be as technical, but can still come up with some cool stuff...even with others' clip files.
Quote from: FrankB on May 01, 2009, 07:55:25 AM
I will take the stance that that's bull#*5&. - NO personal offense meant, Goms!
Goms, I know that this thinking has somehow spread through the German hobbyist network, but let me tell you that it's just common sense to use pre-defined elements to create a new whole.
When you build a house, do you feel guilty and un-creative because someone else has made the bricks for the walls and the glass for the windows? Probably not.
And when you render a scene with TG2, do you feel guilty and un-creative because you're using Klas oak tree in it?
You'll get my point.
I recommend to let go of that thought. It takes the fun out of things :D
Cheers,
Frank
right, but i did not mean objects or single clip files. Also, i absolutely agree that no one has the time and knowledge to create all models himself. That was not my point.
I just don't like the thought that someone just combines clipfiles. Its ok to take a look and see, how other people are doing something. Also it may be possible to learn from clipfiles. But just combining without learning something from it...
It's of course ok to sell clipfiles if there is demand for it. It would also be ok to sell whole scenes.
It's just my opinion about this topic; if i see a picture in which is a huge amount of individual work its more amazing than a picture where i see the clouds, stones and snow from your site. Maybe the terrain is downloaded from another site and thats it. It will of course look good. But not because the work of the artist but because your work.
However, thats a point where a discussion could not lead to anything.
Goms, I agree with you that I've seen some very creative people on this site who can take nothing and create a masterpiece. But, these are in a slim minority. I think of Seth, since I remember him from when he first came here. His first image showed something special and I remember commenting on something. He was very polite about it, but in very quick order he was creating beautiful images. Yet, I'd bet money that he would never say he never learned anything anyone nor would he say he has never used a clip file.
Painters don't usually make their own paint or create their own canvas or tools. A clip file is a tool. Yep, we can learn from a clip file. But, using a clip file in a creative way can be just as creative as creating something from scratch. Frank's analogy about a builder is accurate...having a bunch of beautiful pieces of the grand design, but not designing the blueprint or not having fabricated these beautiful individual pieces of a building, didn't prevent someone from creating the Empire State Building or erecting the Eiffel Tower.
Let's not forget the most potentially creative person here is Matt.
Quote from: buzzzzz1 on April 30, 2009, 07:55:03 PM
FrankB, Martins avatar was getting on my nerves so bad I disabled avatars in the preferences section. That one of wetbanana's makes me want to take a hammer to it. Grrrrrrr Must an old age thing? LOL
One of the few advantages of Internet Explorer is that you can stop animations by clicking the stop button. On Firefox and Opera, the stop button can only be used to stop loading the page, and it is not available after the page has been loaded.
On Opera, you can stop animation by selecting "Tools" -> "Quick preferences" (or press F12), and then uncheck "Enable animated images".
Incidentally, I notice that the message editor on this forum has a button for marguee. That is another element that should be avoided.
--
Pauli