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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 05:34:43 AM

Title: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 05:34:43 AM
... that's when stuff keeps falling down from trees ;)

I've swept it all together to a little pile ;D

This is part of the "Dirt" Pack coming from Walli soon. In this render I've used 8 of the 15+ little objects of this pack, and I think it's going to come in real handy for some autumn renders I'm keen on making in the next few weeks.

Just a test render though. No work went into the ground or anything, except arranging the populations with a spherical distance shader. Oh yeah, I also applied a few level tweaks in post.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Tangled-Universe on September 14, 2009, 06:06:17 AM
That looks fabulous!
Can't you make a scene? ;) ;D

Martin
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Seth on September 14, 2009, 07:23:35 AM
good looking ^^
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Volker Harun on September 14, 2009, 07:26:39 AM
Very good looking ;)
Looking forward to that scene, too ;D
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Henry Blewer on September 14, 2009, 08:00:43 AM
More good stuff coming! I like this one. It reminds me of a bigfoot nest. (Actually me when I drank too much one night and my ex would not allow me in. :( ??? ::) :o)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: littlecannon on September 14, 2009, 08:25:53 AM
Nice... they look similar to the ones he has on turbosquid. (I snapped them up).
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: inkydigit on September 14, 2009, 10:09:26 AM
nice pile o leaves/detritus!
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: old_blaggard on September 14, 2009, 11:02:33 AM
Looks like a great pack from Walli - I've really been looking for some high-quality dead stuff for a while ;).
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 11:12:56 AM
here's a little bit more detail on the individual elements of the pack.

There's clump or two made of these components as well. Still in testing, but it's looking really good to be released soon.
This pack has some components in common with the TSquid version, but our's will be a little bigger, TG2 optimized (tgo+obj) and at our usual friendly prices.  ;)

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Seth on September 14, 2009, 11:21:17 AM
I test it a bit... I will try to do something with it too ;)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: RArcher on September 14, 2009, 11:33:55 AM
Looks great Frank,  I've got a little something in the works as well that looks as thought it might turn out OK.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 11:43:41 AM
Quote from: RArcher on September 14, 2009, 11:33:55 AM
...that looks as thought it might turn out OK.

aahhh, Ryan, you don't fool me with this Ryan-ish understatement ;D
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: cyphyr on September 14, 2009, 11:48:54 AM
I was looking at Ryans "cracked earth" and thinking how good it would look with some detritus scattered about ... .. . :)
Richard
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 11:52:04 AM
I'm currently rendering this pile on Ryan's Dirt Clumps Pack.
I'm afraid I have tweaked the dirt clumps to death a little, but I'll let it finish the render. Should be ready in an estimated 2 hours or so.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: rcallicotte on September 14, 2009, 12:11:17 PM
I thought I remarked in this thread.  What happened to my comments?
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 12:31:01 PM
haven't seen anything, Rob. Forgot to hit "submit", maybe?
Sometimes I write a reply and then accidently my thumb hits the back button on my mouse, before I can submit.. aarggh.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: rcallicotte on September 14, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
I know I thought it - Great work, Frank!  I love it.  It looks very real.

Am I losing my mind?   ???   Hope not.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 03:11:02 PM
the render is ready.
I'm disappointed of the quality of that xfrog tree. Probably this one is more suitable for mid distances.
Other than that ... well, you tell me ;)

Cheers;
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 14, 2009, 03:17:25 PM
probably you could add one or two populations with objects slightly rotated, so that not all of them lie so flat. Nice colors!
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 03:24:48 PM
thanks :)

'course they lie flat. They've been stomped upon ;D

no seriously, good suggestion. I shall remember that next time.

Cheers,
Frank

PS: Walli, I need a hero tree. Definitely. Please. Soon. ;)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: cyphyr on September 14, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
Lovely, and I agree about the tree, set Walli on to that :)
Quote from: Walli on September 14, 2009, 03:17:25 PM
probably you could add one or two populations with objects slightly rotated, so that not all of them lie so flat. Nice colors!
I really wish we could do this, for now we can only rotate objects in the ZX plane, it would be oh so cool to be able to rotate in the ZY and XY plane too. It would also help in placing populations away from the planets "north pole"
Richard
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 03:29:05 PM
Richard, the way I would do this is add another population or three, where the object reader inside the populator already has rotation applied. Once populated, it will look like a random 3D roation.

Regards
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: cyphyr on September 14, 2009, 03:35:40 PM
Yes I know it can be done that way, its just that then you'd have to load the object three times. Probably not an issue with smaller objects like these but imagine trying to create an extensive overgrown forest with trees tipping this way and that. With five or six different trees each being loaded several times to give the offset rotation one could easily run out of memory fast. "All" (because I know nothing is easy) Planetside has to do is allow random rotation in other planes for the populator and the problem goes away.
:)
Richard
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 03:38:53 PM
I didn't mean to load each population thrice. Just one, two or three pops loaded a second time. Also, these tilted (trees for example) can be restricted to near to mid distances, so that they don't eat into memory that much.
But I agree, it's a hack, and allowing rotation around the other planes would be the correct solution.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:22:29 PM
yes, some additional options for the populator would be nice. For examle also the possibility to use one populator for several objects. I am sure Planetside has this on its list ;-)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: goldfarb on September 14, 2009, 04:25:56 PM
FrankB
great render...one of the hardest things to do in CG is 'crap'...
nature is mostly dead and broken things but we never build this stuff..

great job!
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Henry Blewer on September 14, 2009, 04:32:54 PM
That would make a very useful object pack, natural debris. Dead trees, logs, leaves, needles, and various seeds.
The latest render is good. I like the color variation of the trees leaves. The tree would benefit from a more detailed image mapping of it's leaves.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: njeneb on September 14, 2009, 04:32:54 PM
The tree would benefit from a more detailed image mapping of it's leaves.

Let's face it: it would benefit more from being a better model overall. Those 2D xfrog broad leaves are certainly not the way to go. :(
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: choronr on September 14, 2009, 04:41:10 PM
Organic debris is common and normal in almost all landscape images. This is a timely offering as what I am working on needs something like this to fill in the voids between rocks and plants ...great one Frank!
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:43:20 PM
Thanks guys. Don't forget the credits for the plants / debris go to Walli, not me.

cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:49:58 PM
Quote from: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Those 2D xfrog broad leaves are certainly not the way to go. :(

well, not long ago most people were complaining about polygon count (and still do), so using 2D planes was the only practical way. Keep in mind, when replacing this last level by geometry, you easily can pass 1 million polygons - thats still not an option for most people.

Actually I think that also could be something nice for a renderengine - only recieving position data were the leaves should be and then do some instancing inside the instance ;-)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:56:47 PM
It doesn't matter whether it's technically more feasible to render with a low poly count or not. My point is that especially the broadleaf vegetation is spoiling realism big time in our renders. 2D is fine when each leaf is not more than 4 pixels, but even then: like in this model, all leaves follow the same orientation and plane, and when you see a branch from the side, it's flat. So in reality these models are ok for mid distances, but not as close as this.

Did I say I need a hero tree already? ;D

Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:59:22 PM
I would like to add: high poly count is soon to become a problem of the past. With 64 bit coming along in TG2 sometime soon, and RAM being so cheap... hey!

Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 14, 2009, 05:00:16 PM
I understand you perfectly ;-)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: cyphyr on September 14, 2009, 05:05:17 PM
Quote from: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:49:58 PM
... do some instancing inside the instance ;-)

I'm liking, confused but liking :)

Richard
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: goldfarb on September 14, 2009, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:49:58 PM
Quote from: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Those 2D xfrog broad leaves are certainly not the way to go. :(

well, not long ago most people were complaining about polygon count (and still do), so using 2D planes was the only practical way. Keep in mind, when replacing this last level by geometry, you easily can pass 1 million polygons - thats still not an option for most people.

Actually I think that also could be something nice for a renderengine - only recieving position data were the leaves should be and then do some instancing inside the instance ;-)

something like renderman's Delayed Load would solve this issue...(only loads geometry when needed)

OR

have a tree that can receive a population, so the leaves are instances instead of duplicated geometry...


@njeneb - "natural debris. Dead trees, logs, leaves, needles, and various seeds."

something like dandelO's Planetary Grass Shader but modified to make this kind of natural debris...
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Volker Harun on September 14, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Nice scene ... I do not know if anybody noticed ... some better tree would add to realsim ;)
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Seth on September 14, 2009, 06:09:42 PM
good job ^^
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: jo on September 14, 2009, 09:09:27 PM
Hi,

I've always had a theory that bicubic patches would be a good way to go for leaf geometry. Nice curving shapes without too much added data, quick to evaluate during rendering. A bit slower than flat polys no doubt, but a worthwhile tradeoff for increased realism I think.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: CCC on September 15, 2009, 12:00:37 AM
For instance inside of a instance. I am very certain Modo 401 does this where a user can have an instanced tree and have an instanced leaf on each tree.

Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 15, 2009, 03:04:59 AM
What I can see more and more often is, that many render engines actually have problems, when tracing that many alpha planes. I even stumbled over extrem cases where a 2000 poly lowpoly LOD of a tree rendered much slower compared to the original (about 150000 polygons).
The main problem when going the very detailed approach is the amount of memory needed. Of course you can instance this tree without much impact - but then you probably only can load two or three of these "monsters" until you are out of RAM, unless you have 8GB+.

So I really think it would be a nice approach to generate such leaf (and probably even tiny branching) geometry at rendertime would be veeeery nice - but for sure very complex to implement.

In any case, during autumn a hero will be born, I am pretty sure about that.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 15, 2009, 05:24:18 AM
Quote from: Walli on September 15, 2009, 03:04:59 AM
In any case, during autumn a hero will be born, I am pretty sure about that.

I'm certainly looking forward to that! Great news!

Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Henry Blewer on September 15, 2009, 07:59:24 AM
Back in the day, I used VistaPro 3 and Scenery Animator 4. The approach they used was L-Systems for tree/plant generation. World Construction Set used billboards with actual photos of trees. The VistaPro / Scenery Animator approach was fast, and produced decent results for that time. World Construction Set was slow on my Amiga 4000. It could take 2 days for a single image.
The billboard approach could be used in Terragen 2 effectively for stills. A plug-in for an L-System would be a cool add-on.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Walli on September 15, 2009, 08:35:53 AM
until you get an  l-system that is capable of creating nice plants - especieally if you want more then just some firs and broadleaves - takes a while.

L-Systems can be very powerful though. Houdini has a nice l-system implemention, well integrated.
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Zylot on September 16, 2009, 09:06:58 AM
I've been waiting for something like this for a while, nice!
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 16, 2009, 09:08:18 AM
Quote from: Zylot on September 16, 2009, 09:06:58 AM
I've been waiting for something like this for a while, nice!

do you refer to the images in this thread, the l-system, or the hero tree? :)

Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: FrankB on September 25, 2009, 06:09:20 AM
The groundstuff dirt used in these images is now available at NWDA: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=6723.msg81432#msg81432

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Autumn...
Post by: Gannaingh on September 25, 2009, 11:31:32 AM
How have I missed this?! This looks wonderful and will be very useful for adding some more randomness to our scenes! Awesome work guys!