Gday Mowahk20
Yes it is a shame that Frank B would/ could not even show us, with a picture showing how the functions were put together, how he did what he did.
It would have been better not have shown us mugs the pic before the experts had worked out the presets for the Functions.
Mike
Quote from: groverwa on February 06, 2007, 08:43:27 PM
Gday Mowahk20
Yes it is a shame that Frank B would/ could not even show us, with a picture showing how the functions were put together, how he did what he did.
It would have been better not have shown us mugs the pic before the experts had worked out the presets for the Functions.
Mike
As much as I would like to see how he created the terrain I also would like to thank him for not showing us/me! It gives us motivation to study and tinker with the program. If he did indeed show us his node network he would have hindered our exploration of the program.
Just my two cents though.
Awesome work none the less and I cannot wait to see a non-alpha tester recreate a similar terrain!
don't you thinka node picture would actually help develop this concept since you would have a reference to work off of.
Quote from: king_tiger_666 on February 06, 2007, 09:39:32 PM
don't you thinka node picture would actually help develop this concept since you would have a reference to work off of.
I think it would help right off the bat, but in the long run I think I would benefit much more by experimenting with other nodes before I actually find the solution to the problem. The way I look at it is this... When someone is not given the answer and they want to learn how the effect was achieved they will go try to figure it out. At first its going to be frustrating and it will take awhile, but all that time really does not go to waste (at least in my opinion). I believe trial and error is an efficient way to gain knowledge. Sure we will have a harder time creating that same effect, but we have gained much more knowledge (through trial and error) that can be put into other techniques in the future. Hopefully after some tinkering the person will come up with a technique that works to their liking.
I am not advocating that we should never share tgd's or post pictures of our node networks, but I also believe the art of tinkering is a very powerful learning tool and we should not be so quick to throw our tgd's out in the open because we are in a sense hurting the community.
Quote from: BPauba on February 06, 2007, 09:50:48 PM
...we should not be so quick to throw our tgd's out in the open because we are in a sense hurting the community.
Hurting the community?
In my opinion alpha testers should be a little bit more generous with info about how they created stuff, since there still isn't proper documentation on the TP.
Oshyan provides us a lot with useful info, but he also has a life outside this forum ;D
Therefore I'd like to see more alpha-testers being pro-active on this forum in providing info. Most of the times people are only asking technical questions, not "hey that's a great image, can I have the tgd (so I can recreate it)?
So what's the big deal for them? People aren't up to recreating work.
They just want to know how to do certain technical aspects and implement them into their own work, their own style. At least, I do :)
To a certain extend I agree with you about tinkering with TG2 would aid in understandig, but examples can also give a good, sometimes even better understandig how stuff works and therefore be as beneficial for your skills/development with TG2.
Martin
I am not sure but I think that there are areas even now that the Alpha testers cannot talk about due to the NDA. Having said that those members of the Alpha test team that are here have provided lots of information on the technical aspects on the use of the software, I am not sure at this stage what else they can do!
As to the documentation this is still in an embryonic state and will develop over time, on this subject I would agree with the current release policy here releasing quality documentation slowly to allow absorption and learning form the existing content, as not to have information overload form a users point of view.
If people have specific questions on a technical aspect of the software then they should ask a question on that subject which will be answered in due course.
I am sure there is technical documentation that cannot be released for commercial and other reasons such as the design documentation and such like and it would be unreasonable to ask for this.
The way I look at it is this, if every aspect of the program where explained now where would be the sense of discovery and wonder at having found some thing out by your self, this is akin then to having foreknowledge of what your Christmas presents are going to be.
Problem solving is one skill that the human brain is highly adept at, both as individuals and groups; barring in intellectual or related disability figuring out how to do some thing is what we do, there are of course animals that have similar skills such as Gorillas and Chimpanzees, this lead to the development of progress without which you have stagnation and eventual collapse.
My argument is, is that individual learning and discovery can aid in the advancement of the groups knowledge and the converse is also true that what a group discovers can aid the individual, for instance the discovery of Penicillin in 1928 by Alexander Fleming helped save countless lives.
The litmus test for any discovery is can the results be replicated form what has been said (Not directly using TGD files) by an individual this is where the group dynamic is important as they can test the results to test weather the original findings are true thus if they can not then its not good science.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
C-A is right in terms of there being pretty heavy restrictions imposed upon us by the NDA, but one of the larger reasons we don't share tgd files that much is either because a) we don't feel like our images are really above and beyond what others are doing (like me ;)) or b) we want other people to figure things out for themselves. This latter choice can either be for commercial reasons (like Frank who runs a business based on his Terragen art) or simply because, as C-A said, what's the fun in making images if you're just copying off of someone else. I personally don't have a problem with sharing techniques, but I think we should share just that - techniques. Whenever I share one of my files, I try to put at least a short description of why I did what I did so that people viewing it can see how the nodes interact.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on February 07, 2007, 04:44:13 AM
Quote from: BPauba on February 06, 2007, 09:50:48 PM
...we should not be so quick to throw our tgd's out in the open because we are in a sense hurting the community.
Hurting the community?
In my opinion alpha testers should be a little bit more generous with info about how they created stuff, since there still isn't proper documentation on the TP.
Oshyan provides us a lot with useful info, but he also has a life outside this forum ;D
Therefore I'd like to see more alpha-testers being pro-active on this forum in providing info. Most of the times people are only asking technical questions, not "hey that's a great image, can I have the tgd (so I can recreate it)?
So what's the big deal for them? People aren't up to recreating work.
They just want to know how to do certain technical aspects and implement them into their own work, their own style. At least, I do :)
To a certain extend I agree with you about tinkering with TG2 would aid in understandig, but examples can also give a good, sometimes even better understandig how stuff works and therefore be as beneficial for your skills/development with TG2.
Martin
By no means am I saying that we should never share our TGD files, and I do believe it is a great way to learn specific aspects of Terragen, but that in itself is a huge downfall for learning strictly off of TGD files. When you look into a node network on a TGD you have the map to success right in front of you. there is nothing wrong with that, but when you have the map in front of you all the time is when it starts hurting and limiting you.
For example, I have not much of any experience in the atmosphere nodes, but I have looked at a couple of TGD files, so I can create a believable cloudscape if I wanted, but I am greatly limited because the only reason I know how to do that is because I have seen the correct way to do it. I am dumbing this down, because obviously I could create different forms of clouds by just simply changing some already known variables, but in theory I am limited, and that does have some significance in the real world as well.
On another problem I was having I did not look at a TGD file until I had the solution, sure enough I got the look I wanted after awhile, but it was not the same technique. I learned much much more by tinkering with the program other then just looking at the TGD.
Strictly learning by yourself is very inefficient as well. Obviously by resorting to this method of learning all the time would greatly reduce the amount of things you could/should learn. What I am trying to say is either extreme is not healthy, and a balance of both can really help us fly through the learning curve of Terragen...
Like right now, I am looking at 3DGuy's TGD and tinkering, but I still do not have the answer. Argh!
with tinkering comes learning:P...
Thanks all for replying. May be it´s better to start a seperate topic about this discussion, because it´s messing up Frank´s topic.
In general I think you all exaggerate a
bit all the things I´ve said in my last post, but I´ll respond to all of you individually first:
@ Cyber-Angel:Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
I am not sure but I think that there are areas even now that the Alpha testers cannot talk about due to the NDA. Having said that those members of the Alpha test team that are here have provided lots of information on the technical aspects on the use of the software, I am not sure at this stage what else they can do!
As far as I know a NDA isn't concerned about telling others how to create a certain effect (connect A to B then C to D etc. etc.) or how to use a function
with the TP of TG2.
Underlined, because the TP is already disclosed, to us users. I think now at the moment alpha testers can't talk about future functionality and how to's of yet to be released versions of TG2.
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
As to the documentation this is still in an embryonic state and will develop over time, on this subject I would agree with the current release policy here releasing quality documentation slowly to allow absorption and learning form the existing content, as not to have information overload form a users point of view.
Yes, I agree. As I already mentioned alpha testers could aid in this.
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
I am sure there is technical documentation that cannot be released for commercial and other reasons such as the design documentation and such like and it would be unreasonable to ask for this.
Of course, logical... I obviously didn´t mean this kind of documentation.
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
The way I look at it is this, if every aspect of the program where explained now where would be the sense of discovery and wonder at having found some thing out by your self, this is akin then to having foreknowledge of what your Christmas presents are going to be.
Problem solving is one skill that the human brain is highly adept at, both as individuals and groups; barring in intellectual or related disability figuring out how to do some thing is what we do, there are of course animals that have similar skills such as Gorillas and Chimpanzees, this lead to the development of progress without which you have stagnation and eventual collapse.
You lost me in the last line, what are you trying to say?
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
My argument is, is that individual learning and discovery can aid in the advancement of the groups knowledge and the converse is also true that what a group discovers can aid the individual, for instance the discovery of Penicillin in 1928 by Alexander Fleming helped save countless lives.
One helps all, all help one... That´s what communities like these are for :)
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on February 07, 2007, 10:42:40 AM
The litmus test for any discovery is can the results be replicated form what has been said (Not directly using TGD files) by an individual this is where the group dynamic is important as they can test the results to test weather the original findings are true thus if they can not then its not good science.
Well, being a scientific researcher myself I don´t really agree (underlined parts are contradicted when you´re speaking about science), but further discussion on this line is not of concern here, though interesting ;D
@ old_blaggard:Same here about the NDA. I don´t know the contents of the NDA, but as you already mentioned I don´t really understand how the NDA restricts in telling others how to use certain functions in the TP. Maybe you could explain a little bit more about the NDA, so help me to understand?
Not sharing files because of reason a) suits me fine :)
Reason b) also, certainly when commercial aspects are involved. I never said, or at least meant to say, that figuring out things yourself isn´t fun/good at all.
However, sometimes a little extra help could give you just that small insight which could help you a lot and a long way on. It´s only this information I´m talking about.
In the last line you´re more or less saying the same. Sharing techniques to learn from it, not sharing TGD´s to see your work posted by others somewhere on the net.
I think I already said that quite clear in my post above :)
@ BPauba:Quote from: BPauba on February 07, 2007, 03:35:11 PM
By no means am I saying that we should never share our TGD files, and I do believe it is a great way to learn specific aspects of Terragen, but that in itself is a huge downfall for learning strictly off of TGD files. When you look into a node network on a TGD you have the map to success right in front of you. there is nothing wrong with that, but when you have the map in front of you all the time is when it starts hurting and limiting you.
Certainly agree on your last sentence.
As I already tried to explain above I´m only trying to say alpha testers should be pro-active here when people are asking info about things they see in their images.
I only meant technical info, like old blaggard meant above (when sharing files, describe why and how why things were done...that would be a great step forward), not sharing TGD files. I never said the info should be shared in the form of a TGD file.
Quote from: BPauba on February 07, 2007, 03:35:11 PM
For example, I have not much of any experience in the atmosphere nodes, but I have looked at a couple of TGD files, so I can create a believable cloudscape if I wanted, but I am greatly limited because the only reason I know how to do that is because I have seen the correct way to do it. I am dumbing this down, because obviously I could create different forms of clouds by just simply changing some already known variables, but in theory I am limited, and that does have some significance in the real world as well.
In theory you´re still unlimited, because it´s your decision wheter or how to use the TGD file. A TGD file can give you comprehensive insight/understandig. This obtained knowledge can be used to implement in your own way to your own work....creativity. By purpose I explicitely mentioned in my post above that people want to understand how to do what. Not to recreate with the use of a TGD file. Again, I never mentioned the info should be shared in a TGD file.
Quote from: BPauba on February 07, 2007, 03:35:11 PM
On another problem I was having I did not look at a TGD file until I had the solution, sure enough I got the look I wanted after awhile, but it was not the same technique. I learned much much more by tinkering with the program other then just looking at the TGD.
Strictly learning by yourself is very inefficient as well. Obviously by resorting to this method of learning all the time would greatly reduce the amount of things you could/should learn. What I am trying to say is either extreme is not healthy, and a balance of both can really help us fly through the learning curve of Terragen...
I agree. Learning by yourself provides greater understanding, because you learn it your way. Your own way in understanding. And yes, it´s ineffecient. Therefore, some 3rd party help could just give you that ´extra´. As you said, balance.
In conclusion:First of all, being a dutch guy I can be a little bit direct or harsh-sounding sometimes :)
Just to make clear I do not intend to offend people here as I don´t feel offended at all by you.
Well, in conclusion I just like to see (more) alpha-testers be more pro-active on this forum in providing help/information on problems/questions regarding function(ality) of the TP.
I didn´t say these should be providing just by TGD´s, not at all.
Learning yourself (yes, by tinkering :) ) is the best way I think, because you can learn at your own pace, you remember/recall things your own way, you have your own approach/workflow. All add in greater understanding. Later you can polish it, because it´s likely you´ll learn to create certain things in an ineffecient way (technically/renderwise speaking).
It can take a lot of effort to get the result you´re after, but sometimes it can take too much effort (inefficient as BPauba told) and extra help in the form of a description or an example-TGD can aid in understanding.
So, to say for the n-th time... It´s not about only sharing info in the form of a TGD, not about recreating stuff etc. etc.
It´s all about willing to understand this wonderful program and all of it´s functionality and to apply it creatively.
So alpha testers, please stand up and help Oshyan on this forum with the load of questions over here :)
Kind regards to all of you :)
Martin
In answer to your question, the NDA is strict enough that we can't even go into much detail as to what it's about, so... take from that what you will :D.
old_blaggard your on the alpha team? sorry I left this thread for a day and I missed so much.
Regards,
Will
Yeah, I was rounded up as a last-minute Mac tester ;).
Quote from: old_blaggard on February 07, 2007, 05:40:29 PM
In answer to your question, the NDA is strict enough that we can't even go into much detail as to what it's about, so... take from that what you will :D.
Haha, well...don´t be surprised from now on when people like me are asking things which are being restricted by the NDA. This is such a vague description but I´ll try to take from it whatever I can :)
Stubborn as I am: I still can´t believe the NDA restricts the alpha-testers from telling how to use certain shaders for example. Oshyan also had to sign the NDA and he´s giving lots of information, so why can´t you alpha-testers? But in regard to your post it seems you guys can´t explain us.
I´m sorry, I just don´t understand ???
Well, we can technically give some information as to how we used the shaders, and I detailed my reasons for why I think most alpha testers choose not to in a previous post. Also, Oshyan did sign an NDA, but since he's a part of Planetside now, he can really say whatever he wants ;).
I think that when downloading a tgd file as an example, people should keep in mind that it's just one way to do it, not nesceseraly the way. Because TG is so powerfull and versatile (mainbe because of the nodes) there's a plethora of ways to achieve most looks/effects.
I've shared quite a few tgd's, but they're not full scenes. They're more tech examples of how things can be done. I tinker alot ;) When tinkering, there's one important thing to remember... change one and only one thing at a time and see how that effects things. I usually see people making lots of changes and then see what the result is. They might end up with a cool scene, but no idea on how they got there.
you have a good point there, there is also just sharing CLip files to get desired effects, I think that could be useful. Also I'm so glad to have plethora as part of my vocabulary now.
Regards,
Will
Tangeled-Universe,
Let me try and explain that line that has got you confused.
What I was referring to was that a social system such as a civilization requires progress to move forward other wise it risks stagnation and eventual collapse. In evolutionary terms then if a species moves to slowly in its evolutionary path then it will be passed by another species and become extinct, the converse is also true if that species moves faster in its evolutionary progress then every thing around it, it also risks extinction.
I hope that clears things up.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on February 07, 2007, 06:02:24 PM
Quote from: old_blaggard on February 07, 2007, 05:40:29 PM
In answer to your question, the NDA is strict enough that we can't even go into much detail as to what it's about, so... take from that what you will :D.
Haha, well...don´t be surprised from now on when people like me are asking things which are being restricted by the NDA. This is such a vague description but I´ll try to take from it whatever I can :)
Stubborn as I am: I still can´t believe the NDA restricts the alpha-testers from telling how to use certain shaders for example. Oshyan also had to sign the NDA and he´s giving lots of information, so why can´t you alpha-testers? But in regard to your post it seems you guys can´t explain us.
I´m sorry, I just don´t understand ???
Martin, You have been around the Terragen Community as long as I, so I think we both know why certain people won't share knowledge. Although some will be generous with terrains.
Yes Jay, you're right.
I guess it's also a difference in mentality.
Well, all been said I think it's all clear enough for me. Thank you all for discussing/explaining. So if it's up to me this case is closed :)
Let's get on with tinkering ;D
Martin
Whoa, this discussion seems to have wandered a little off topic, so I'll try to bring it back round:
Really nice picture - can I have the .tgd? (ONLY KIDDING!!!)
Just wanted to say, thanks for sharing what I think is a really inspiring picture. I think that you can take the fact that it has triggered such an energetic discussion into how it was created as evidence of its "fantastic-ness"!
I like Old_Blaggard am an alpha tester(mac)...but I dont have a clue as to how all of the shaders or any of the functions work!....so I am in the dark as much as anyone, I have also found that, for me at least downloading someone elses tgd(or tgw for tg0.9) does not always make things any clearer...sometimes I have learnt more by playing with settings myself, that being said a functions/shaders description list would be immensely helpful, as would some nice presets to play with!!....anyhow, I will continue to try to get my head around this powerful app!
any tips/tricks will still be greatly appreciated!
have fun
inky
:)
Yes, a list of function/shader decriptions would indeed be of tremendous value.
Planetside planned to release preset-files at the end of december last year, but due to busy times and the holidays it's been delayed.
Last week Oshyan told me they will be available within a couple of weeks; together with an update and "additional objects"...whatever that might be :)
So I expect them to be somewhere in march, beginning of april.
Well, now we'll sit and wait (Heineken ad ;D)
Time enough to play...
Martin
p.s. Well, no time enough...way too short on time ghehe ;D
As part of the final documentation, each and every parameter of each and every node will be detailed. Poor Oshyan... :P.
Quote from: old_blaggard on February 08, 2007, 12:00:56 PM
As part of the final documentation, each and every parameter of each and every node will be detailed. Poor Oshyan... :P.
chyeah, that is gunna be one hell of a job. Good discussion guys :D
Well what an interesting discussion, for which I thank one and all. Much I didn't agree with, some were typically academic and as such rarely practical. Much touched on practicality but tended to deride history, by that I imply experience as a bases for ongoing development. Ignore history and you end up reinventing the wheel. Absolutely nothing wrong or improper in diagnosing .tgd's if that action results in closing the loop. Ugh! don't you just hate some modern cliques. If one is given the opportunity to investigate the result of someone else's labour, on your own route, towards self awareness, this is not necessarily plagiarism but rather as has been mentioned, development of the individual at their own rate and to their own individual ends. Collectively we all learn, we all gain. Each necessarily to their own perceptions, each due to their individual creativity, each to their individual talent. Errrrg! the beast has crashed yet again. I must stop my ramblings. Nice to see a mature community having vented its various spleens, subsiding back to practical, common help and assistance all within one thread and without a flame war. Well done lads and lasses, all power to your renders. ;D Grrrrrrrrrr! I'm back to say briefly, give Frank a break he's developing a preset for all of us eventually to use if the powers that be like what they see. If he's been commissioned to do that, then be patient and hope he is successful. :-*
I can't wait.
:o
Quote from: old_blaggard on February 08, 2007, 12:00:56 PM
As part of the final documentation, each and every parameter of each and every node will be detailed. Poor Oshyan... :P.
im sure Oshyan can...
Quote from: calico on February 09, 2007, 03:33:38 PM
I can't wait.
:o
Quote from: old_blaggard on February 08, 2007, 12:00:56 PM
As part of the final documentation, each and every parameter of each and every node will be detailed. Poor Oshyan... :P.
Patience Dude! ;-)