Hi, is it possible in TG2???[attachthumb=#]
Someone called JCinBAMA just posted this in terranuts and said he made it with an image map...
But how???
Could someone tell if it's actually 3d???
Its a photo, without a doubt.
Richard Fraser
Go to Terranuts and read his/her replies. I think someone is trying to BS us. ;)
OK :-\
Just waiting for the day...
and waiting and waiting....
Haaaa, if that is 3D i will eat my Hat! ;D
theres no way you could do that with an image map! If that was 3d then I will eat my socks (hat was already taken ;) )
Regards,
Will
I would assume by "done with an image map" they meant taking a photo of a wave and just mapping it to a terrain. Hardly revolutionary. ;D
- Oshyan
OK forget about the wave brothers,
The way I see it waves are shaders that we apply to the water right? So there actually should be a way to make that as a shader and have it look that good. When I do buy the full version of TG2 I was hoping that that would be one of the features they are working on for a final alpha, but maybe not.
I have heard though here and there that they are working on it. I know that allot of video games use shaders to make their water look real with waves, from Guld Wars to Rolly Coaster tycoon and more, so it should not be a whole stretch to get there from here with waves. Some bright boy will find a way and show us the path I am betting. /smiles....
DT
i was duped.. i thought he produced the whole thing in tg2..
>:(
I'm currently *trying* to create waves with crests with functions, but I've hit a dead end. If I can't figure it out, then there's always using the function exp(sin(x)) and using the redirect shader (see "A function only landscape" in the image sharing boards).
I would like to re-post this that I posted in response to a question over at Ashundar which was also to do with waves such as the one pictured above:
Waves like you describe are vary complex phenomena and would be extremely difficult to implement unless you modeled the underlying physics.
Breaking shallow water waves start far out at sea, with the sea surface been displaced by wind pressure, this combined with the centripetal force generated by the rotation of the earth produces waves.
The motion under the sea surface is a elliptical one, when the deep water wave approaches shore it increases in height until the force of gravity which is pulling on it means it can no longer support its own weight and the wave lip collapses in an asymmetrical fashion and this is what you see when a wave breaks.
There are many complex phenomena at work such as wave/ shore interaction that are not fully understood and so it would be vary difficult to produce an algorithm to render such phenomena without that data.
Terragen would need a 3D fluid solver probably based on a quad-tree data structure to do breaking surf, and the sea spray should be automatically generated.
This fluid solver would need to also consider:
Naiver-Stokes Equation
Reynolds Number
Law of Energy Conservation
Newtons Laws of Motion
Non-Ideal Fluids
Compressible and Non-Compressible Fluid Flow
those are just some of the things the solver would have to consider and since your talking about waves they would have to except back lighting and subsurface scattering, the water produced by this solver would need to consider multiple forward and backward scattering not single forward scattering as proposed in some of the computer graphics literature.
If you wanted to take it a stage further along, since you have a sun object and Terragen is capable of producing clouds, you could implement an evaporation model into Terragen; so that your bodies of water became a source of water vapor and also sea spray, is a source of cloud condensation nuclei without which you would have no clouds.
------------------------------------------------------------
I know that Terragen is not going to to Physically accurate any time soon but there you have it, this is what it is take it or leave it.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Use that..overshader or something on a terrain in the middle of a lake/water, then add that spray can in MS Paint and ta da! You've got yourself an awesome looking wave :)
Cyber-Angel, how do you always seem to know about the physics behind this stuff? Do you have a degree in Physics?
Dark-Fire,
To answer you question no I don't have a degree in physics, but I spend a lot of time reading whats out there on the Internet and then trying to peace it all together. I just happen to love finding relationships in complex phenomena and have come to the conclusion the world in which we live isn't nearly as complex as people seem to think it is.
The way I look at it is this software such Terragen try to model parts of the natural physical world and its many phenomena, conversely then nature has certain immutable laws which we call the laws of physics.
Put it another way cut a slice from an apple, you have a partially whole apple not the complete whole; representing nature on a computer then at the moment with all the fudging, workarounds and so forth is like the apple with the missing slice it isn't the complete picture and therefore not as one would expect.
As computers get more powerful new methods replace the old, if your going to represent nature on a computer then nature has rules that need to be followed just like if people go up against nature and as you know nature wins every time, you cannot escape the fundamental laws of physics and how they interact with one another.
As it stands right now there are two many uncertainties, to many unknowns and areas of grey about various aspects of how nature works, what we know to be true today may not be so in ten or even fifty years form now, but that is what discovery (Not the Channel) and a sense of wonder (I never lost mine) will do for you.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Well that science channel will do that to you ;) I, for one, am sad that the world has gotten so specialized. What ever happened to the renaissance man(or woman)? I kinda of wish I could go off on only a whim and my curosity and see what I could discover but for that I would need some money. My dream is to one day either get into space or get myself a minisub and go the Mariana Trench if not to only finsish what Don Walsh and Jacques Piccard started.
Regards,
Will
Quote from: Will on March 17, 2007, 07:52:22 PM
I kinda of wish I could go off on only a whim and my curosity and see what I could discover but for that I would need some money.
T2TP lets you discover new worlds for free (but you do have to pay for HD-quality worlds).
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on March 17, 2007, 07:39:42 PM
...but that is what discovery (Not the Channel) and a sense of wonder (I never lost mine) will do for you.
There is one other thing required, which not many people have much of: time. I would like more time to find out about things like physics, but unfortunately I have very little time and it is impossible to create more (unless you have enough time to find a flaw in physics that would allow you to create more time)...
AHA! That bring up a good idea that I want to try out... there's an incredibly good 3d fluid simulator available called Realflow (not free, but there is a trial version). It's rather good at simulating fluid and gas physics. You can import an object such as terrain and have water realistically interact with it...you could get some good wave shapes from that. You can export the fluid as a mesh into TG2 and apply some shaders to it...
*runs off to play with realfow*
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on March 17, 2007, 07:39:42 PM
Dark-Fire,
To answer you question no I don't have a degree in physics, but I spend a lot of time reading whats out there on the Internet and then trying to peace it all together. I just happen to love finding relationships in complex phenomena and have come to the conclusion the world in which we live isn't nearly as complex as people seem to think it is.
The way I look at it is this software such Terragen try to model parts of the natural physical world and its many phenomena, conversely then nature has certain immutable laws which we call the laws of physics.
Put it another way cut a slice from an apple, you have a partially whole apple not the complete whole; representing nature on a computer then at the moment with all the fudging, workarounds and so forth is like the apple with the missing slice it isn't the complete picture and therefore not as one would expect.
As computers get more powerful new methods replace the old, if your going to represent nature on a computer then nature has rules that need to be followed just like if people go up against nature and as you know nature wins every time, you cannot escape the fundamental laws of physics and how they interact with one another.
As it stands right now there are two many uncertainties, to many unknowns and areas of grey about various aspects of how nature works, what we know to be true today may not be so in ten or even fifty years form now, but that is what discovery (Not the Channel) and a sense of wonder (I never lost mine) will do for you.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Heh just saying, you COULD represent nature..on a computer..with the current computer software/hardware.
All I'm saying is, its just a matter of your creativity~
(Me = looking at it from a different perspective and case)
You see, 3d art has always been a creative passion for me. I long to make those seemingly mysterious and beautiful art pieces down at the Maxon Cinema 4D gallery. ALWAYS wanted to. Beautiful, modernistic architecture with its definitive simplicity has always appealed to me..and I have always marvelled at it.
When I saw Terragen's (first) gallery, I was simply amazed..I went on to model, but was not able to achieve those results..I did once, but then, I followed a tutorial and got lost..
Well, I saw Terragen TWO's gallery, and I was simply amazingly shocked - those trees on that beautiful on that yet dusty, yet High Definition landscape..
That's why I've always been sticking to it. I was like..drooling when I was waiting for the TG2TP download. :P And thus, by 'some' hard effort, I managed to make some pretty awesome renders...by my standards, that is :P lol
Ok, I kinda..wandered off there...but the main point is 3D art = creativity.
You can simulate nature with your hard efforts, such as the fantastic team at Crysis have done.
But then again, we're talking about computer..software..aren't we...
Software only takes us so far, the rest is our hard work :) ^ ^
So start working hard, TG2 artists! Let's make those scenes we've been so ever striving to make... :)
Oh and Will, the renaissance man still does exist. Sort of.
The only thing is funding, which could easily be obtained if you..have a high paying job :P
Or be friends with Bill Gates who gives you 5 mil for your birthday. Yay.
I thought I would drop my two cents in as I have studied advanced wave dynamics.
I suspect cyber-angel you were referring to this as the elliptical motion? where A is in deep water and B is once the wave begins to feel the bottom the wave orbital shape changes to be more of a back-forth motion which is a mechanism for ripple formation.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Wave_motion-i18n.png/350px-Wave_motion-i18n.png)
Also I wouldn't say waves a generated by the wind pressure more as the frictional force imposed by the wind. and is generally described by the fetch distance
As far as equations to explain wave breaking, they are very much conceptual such as stokes wave theory, airy wave theory, solitary wave theory, which all relate to wave height and water depth...
on a simpler level wave breaking can be characterised by a relationship between significant wave height "average height trough to crest" and water depth. wave breaking occurs when H/h=0.3
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4787/image1hz2.jpg)
@Will it has become very specialised, but that's just the beast of coastal systems / science in general.
King tiger and your digrams :P It would be intresting to see some plug-in or node that would distort the terrien (water) in such a wat that it creates better peaks that are more physicaly correct while some how preserving Jo and Matts sanity. Think "Terragen 2: Salty+Animation"
Regards,
Will
do you mean cheats :P :P
diagrams are a good thing:P makes something out of gibberish .....
and will your probably right... having waves based on wave theory maths is unrealistic in terms of terragen... but nevertheless it does help understanding of waves and possible adaptations for terragen....
I have been trying for 3 days now to remember the name of a software program, a terrain generator that came out , or was out about 8 years ago. It was a small free program that generated terrain and .GIS data. It could add multiple layers of clouds like TG2 and had a feature that would allow you to make up to I think 7 waves patterns that did actually create waves.
The premise was that in nature waves had different currents or wind effects, so you could set up the various parameters from different points to set the waves. Now the waves got hooky when you made them to big, but it did work. I have been searching for that software which was shareware by the way for days now but it looks like it has vanished and Imay still have it on one of my backup CDs from 8 years ago, but it has been done, maybe not on a level TG2 could do, but someone has done it and we all forgot about it, and I think it was the grandfather of all Terrain programs. Strange how no one other then I believe "World Construction Set" can make waves.
However as I said in the post before, I see waves being done all the time using shaders in Vid games, so why can't TG2 do the same with shaders like in Vid games???? is my question??? There is always the cheat to get th job done like in shaders. I am betting in the final version Planet Side will step up to the bar for us, it has in every other way, so let us hope they are working on it and sometime with the final release we get some waves /winks. I Played Guild Wars all day yesterday for a break, and took at least an 2 hours looking at the waves from small to large that they we doing in game, so I can see that there is a way, we just have not seen it yet /smiles......
Ahh and the graphics are great thanks for those brother /smiles....it shows allot And I think if Planetside does not make one that you guys are right, when they open it up for plugins, it should be one of the first ones made, and WOW will they make money whoever makes it. It got my duckets /winks....Hahaha I know it can be done, I have seen it years ago, and it worked then, not sure where it got lost though?????? OOh well..
DeathTwister
maybe something like this to look at?
http://www.vterrain.org/Water/ (http://www.vterrain.org/Water/)
also I see there's a bit on wave modelling to produce perlin noise outputs
one example http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2001.asp (http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2001.aspandhere)
He He,
King-Tiger I was thinking more along the lines of the transition from deep water waves to shallow water waves, as you know wave/ shore interaction is a complex and still not widely understood phenomena, as you know waves break due to the slowing of a wave as it contacts the ocean floor as it approaches the beach.
The decrease in wavelength forces the wave lip upwards up till it reaches a point where it cannot sustain its height where upon the wave lip collapses in an asymmetric pattern due to friction on the sea floor due to the shallow depth and this is seen as the phenomena known as breaking.
Essentially what you have illustrated.
The Text I started my studies into this with (The Earths Dynamic Systems, 5th Edition, W.Kenneth Hamblin, 1989, Macmillan Publish Company) (ISBN: 0-02-349381-X) (Chapter 15: Shoreline Systems).
For the record I cross study in multiple disciplines such as: Physical Oceanography, Physical Hydrology, Wave/ Shore Dynamics etc then cross reference and cross pollinate information from different sources and make decisions based on what I know; I have to consider the audience I am writing for, a general one here on these forums with the occasional more technically read such as you good self, hence some of the more technical aspects are left out, other times it just what I can recall at the time of writing.
If you really want to do the kind of breakers shown in that image, then you'd have to have the automatic creation of the small foam bubbles left behind in the swash zone after a wave has fully retreated.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
can you guys imagine a Real Flow plug-in for terragen?!
Regards,
Will
I had some more along the lines of what described in the paper (PDF):
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~fedkiw/papers/stanford2004-02.pdf
Or A TG2 implementation of some thing similar thereof.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
I would say wave transition is actually quite well understood, I myself have done wave analysis across a surf zone for my Post Grad....
;D King_Tiger,
I have read enough of whats out there to know that if you take ten people interested in this stuff, you will get ten different answers usually beginning with the words "It is assumed that", perticually where wave/ shore interaction is concerned as you cannot directly see many of the micro-scale processes at work, and therefore it is difficult to gather qualitative, empirical data on much of the underlying micro-scale phenomena in the swash/ backwash zone, data which as you know would be required by the fluid solver if it where to be considered empirically representative of wave/shore phenomena.
You know as well as I that right now that there are still gaps in the knowledge base, grey areas as yet to be investigated and current hypothesis rechecked with as yet to be designed instrumentation (I see grey areas in the knowledge as been that way only due to the fact that as of now no one knows what questions to ask).
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Not to be a party pooper ( I'm finding this disscusion very intresting) but arn't we trying to figure out of to get Terragen to make these types of wave?
Regards,
Will
This is the closest I've come to making big waves in TG2. Unfortunately it doesn't have a curl to it though.
(http://imagehost.meltingice.net/images/galleries/thumbs/opt1174235447r.jpg) (http://imagehost.meltingice.net/viewer.php?id=opt1174235447r.jpg)
Those waves are very good. Perhaps there are better wave-making features planned for TG2...
Hi MeltingIce short time 2 see yaz again /winks,
I love your tutorials my brother, they are awesome.
Hay any chance of letting us know how you got that far so far? Do you have the paid version or free trial right now bro, and does it matter at this point do you think making water work like an ocean??? Looks like you have gotten some very good headway so far and the image is awesome, love that water. /smiles....
This is a great discussion guys /winks.
DeathTwister
Yes. This is a great discussion. I realy do hope that Planetside figure out how to make waves.
Take a look at this. It's realy cool. It is a Hydro-Fluid simulator. But I think this is a plugin for 3ds max.
http://www.scanlinevfx.com/movie_collection.html (http://www.scanlinevfx.com/movie_collection.html)
that is very nice!!... it would be cool "IF" some CG stuff could be transferred to terragen...
That ocean is amazing - reminds me of the movie Perfect Storm! I am following this thread with interest!!! I usually put water in my piccies but haven't so far because I've been disappointed with the lack of transparency (which I believe is coming). Anyway working on deep oceans like Ryan's piccy (Meltingice) doesn't need any transparency so I'd be interested in this!! Just a head in the right direction is all I need (more info than Luc's tip on cumulous clouds - if that wasn't the most frustrating thing!!!! LOL) I think we'd all appreciate something to get our teeth into - I just want ONE fabulous render! LOL Thanks for your input guys this forum has been invaluable! Thanks again.... ;D
There's a big difference between "waves" - which TG2 can already do quite well - and *breaking waves*, which no off-the-shelf program, including games, does at all, or at least very well. DT, you say you were studying the waves in Guild Wars and other games, but none of them do breaking waves as far as I know, and the regular wave shapes they can do are generally quite possible and in fact can usually be done much better in TG2.
You can use any procedural or even a heightfield to create water shape. In fact one might start a breaking wave study by creating a sort of sawtooth heightfield and then displacing it in TG2 horizontally. Without transparency you're going to find the results fairly lacking, but you *may* be able to use very carefully tuned height-based texturing (with lighter blues for higher altitudes) to simulate both transparency and foam. With enough effort I think you'd get an acceptable result, but it would be pretty finnicky, not easily applicable to other scenes, and certainly not animatable. Perhaps a breaking wave function will be added later, but I wouldn't expect it for the initial release of TG2.
- Oshyan
Hay Oshyan,
Thanks for the idea on how to play with the waves, and yes, I think they were shaders I see in games and not real waves I give you that, but your right, in that I have been messing a bit with the shaders and kinda changing them out and around to see what I can come up with. If I come up with anything good, I will post my finding and share with you all /smiles... And I hope some peeps make a good plugin then for the waves, sounds like we could use that one first /winks...
Also I think it could help if we could bring in .pngs I think for getting transparencies in, but when I tried it I couldn't get it to work right. But would be nice to be able to bring in other files besides just .bmp's like .jpg's and .png's if I could put that on a wish list? /smiles.
DT
DT, you can already use .jpg's, tiff's and a number of other file formats. PNG's are technically supported but seem problematic at present. TIFF and TGA can both have embedded alpha channels, or you can specify an external alpha (for transparency).
I'm also confused about your use of the term "shader". It's an extremely general and largely meaningless word. In this context of computer graphics it basically refers to *any* sets of instructions or settings used to describe the "shading" (visual) properties of a surface or object. TG2 uses "shaders", games use "shaders", etc. but they often refer to different things, albeit variations of the same. Saying "it used shaders" doesn't really mean much. You would use "shaders" in TG2 to achieve the same effect(s).
- Oshyan
Hay there,
QuoteI'm also confused about your use of the term "shader". It's an extremely general and largely meaningless word. In this context of computer graphics it basically refers to *any* sets of instructions or settings used to describe the "shading" (visual) properties of a surface or object. TG2 uses "shaders", games use "shaders", etc. but they often refer to different things, albeit variations of the same. Saying "it used shaders" doesn't really mean much. You would use "shaders" in TG2 to achieve the same effect(s).
Haha I have always found that confusing allot myself haha, I am with you there. I have been trying to use .jpgs instead of .bmps for textures and every time I get a does not support this file type for the things I am trying to do, right now any way. So now I am confused, what formats are able to do what, and where? Any Tuts on that you know of Master brother?
I would love to find out exactly how all the file types work in TGD2, but have not run across any as of yet.
And .pngs do not seem to hold there interlaced transparencies at all, for me anyway, not sure why as it comes out white where I wanted nothing, so I am still learning how to use them all. So a good Tut on what does work where would be nice??
Thanks for the info Oshyan, as always your the Elf /smiles DT
PNG's are problematic at present, as I said. .jpg's should work fine. Where and how are you trying to load them? I just created an Image Map shader and loaded a .jpg just fine. It displayed immediately.
- Oshyan