Not a Vue fan by any means but i had to point something out. Notice the "New Terrain Fractals" renders. The shapes look eroded to me. Eroded procedural or cleaver faking from a fractal type? I tend to think more the latter.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/
It does help the terrain look more Terragen 2.
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It does help the terrain look more Terragen 2, if Vue was stable enough to render (infinite) procedurals. ;)
The re-lighting option is cool though. I saw a comment on youtube and I agreed that the re-lighting is a big win over Terragen 2 as you can re-light atmosphere intensity and colour. You can dramatically change mood etc. for a whole image without having to re-render it.
There are probably culprits which we aren't made aware of, but still.
This is likely not an unbiased point of view, but TG2's terrain just has that look that can't be duplicated no matter what happens in Vue (so far).
Not likely to get any disagreement, but I won't argue if you do disagree.
The terrain in question is called Eroded Rocky Mountain Fractal so it is a procedural fractal but weather is replicates erosion or is just a cleaver way of faking it is anyone's guess.
the Relighting technology looks great ! Oo
what a really nice improvement :)
Quote from: ChrisC on October 27, 2010, 10:47:31 AM
The terrain in question is called Eroded Rocky Mountain Fractal so it is a procedural fractal but weather is replicates erosion or is just a cleaver way of faking it is anyone's guess.
Yesterday a couple of renders were posted showing this fractal. Not very impressed by what they did with it, but more importantly they mentioned that the fractal has a lot of parameters. I strongly think that the fractal is a bunch of existing fractal-functions combined with maybe some erosion-emulation functions as well.
Posted where?
Well, erosion in some form is what i have been seeking.
TG2 already has (fake) fractal erosion in the Alpine fractal shader.
I am aware of that shader but the context of the post here is of Vue 9 and it's new fractals. The Alpine Shader is OK but is in need of additional perimeters, being plugable for one thing. Being able to control talus/sedimentary flows and iterated deep erosive cuts would be heaven sent as one example. However, i am aware that these features are the holy grail of terrain software.
Quote from: ChrisC on October 28, 2010, 10:24:53 PM
Posted where?
Well, erosion in some form is what i have been seeking.
Here:
http://thd777.deviantart.com/art/Rocky-Mountain-Procedural-184099421?q=in:digitalart/3d/scenes/landscapes+sort:time&qo=48 (http://thd777.deviantart.com/art/Rocky-Mountain-Procedural-184099421?q=in:digitalart/3d/scenes/landscapes+sort:time&qo=48)
Can't seem to find the other one anymore...oh well.
You mean you're looking for procedural erosion?
That does not exist anymore. And with anymore I mean that some time ago a guy called Dmytry Lavrov made a procedural erosion shader for Mojoworld.
If I'm correct he has more or less abandoned Mojoworld and is working freelance now.
More info here:
http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/mojoworld/erosion_fractal/home.html (http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/mojoworld/erosion_fractal/home.html)
See here in this link for some other examples (scroll down a bit):
http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/volumetrics/index.html (http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/volumetrics/index.html)
Yeah, i have seen that image. It represents not to good a version based on that fractal. Clearly the patterns are too fake in that example. Not rigid enough with very few octaves.
In the long term i am waiting/seeking for procedural erosion, who ever coughs it up first for everyone to use. ;)
Dmytry Lavrov is adding his code into Houdini but i have yet to see any examples of it. Perhaps not for Houdini 10 or what ever the last version was.
I have been using vue intensily over the past month and i must say it has improved dramaticly since i last used it properly in vue 6.
clouds are far better if no better than terragen 2's now
its terrain fractals i find are just as good as terragen 2's
its material editor which i have always been a fan of creates great work flow and is a lot less of a headache when it comes to models than terragen.
but the winner for me is its integration into the big cg apps.
i myself am a 3ds max user and it intergrates flawlessly with max it renders superbly with mentalray and also vray, which is a big plus for archvis artists.
its ecosystem in terms of both plants and objects buts terragens populations to shame in terms of workflow and speed.
and also its 64bit ;D
its developed very fast unlike terragen when was its last release um like 18months ago?
just my 2 cents.
Quote from: wetbanana on October 29, 2010, 10:13:01 PM
I have been using vue intensily over the past month and i must say it has improved dramaticly since i last used it properly in vue 6.
Completely agree by only looking at the work done with Vue. There's still a lot of crap, but more good to awesome work is being shown over the last couple of months.
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clouds are far better if no better than terragen 2's now
I'd like to see examples which prove your point, because this is one of the few things, besides true procedurals, where TG2 is much better at than Vue.
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its terrain fractals i find are just as good as terragen 2's
More flavours and thus more possibilities, I agree. However, stability?
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its material editor which i have always been a fan of creates great work flow and is a lot less of a headache when it comes to models than terragen.
but the winner for me is its integration into the big cg apps.
i myself am a 3ds max user and it intergrates flawlessly with max it renders superbly with mentalray and also vray, which is a big plus for archvis artists.
its ecosystem in terms of both plants and objects buts terragens populations to shame in terms of workflow and speed.
and also its 64bit ;D
its developed very fast unlike terragen when was its last release um like 18months ago?
just my 2 cents.
Oh hell yeah you're right about these! Although stability in other 3D apps using Xstream is also not very stable if I should believe everybody's complaints about it.
vue 8.5 xstream runs absolutely flawlessly on max 2010 hardley ever crashes and when it does its due to max itself not vue.
Vue 8.5 clouds have better scattering than terragens.
here is some nice vue clouds
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/267/d/b/Oceanview_by_Alexm95.jpg)
I really like the rock work here
(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/221/1/7/Rocky_Pastures_by_phaceless2.jpg)
wow !!!
so now, they just have to sell it to a decent price and stop asking for money every 6 months for their new release ;)
Quote from: wetbanana on October 30, 2010, 08:42:21 PM
vue 8.5 xstream runs absolutely flawlessly on max 2010 hardley ever crashes and when it does its due to max itself not vue.
Vue 8.5 clouds have better scattering than terragens.
here is some nice vue clouds
img width=512 height=236]http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/267/d/b/Oceanview_by_Alexm95.jpg[/img]
I really like the rock work here
(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/221/1/7/Rocky_Pastures_by_phaceless2.jpg)
I agree with you about the scatter in Vue. I think it looks better/more appealing, but when it comes to realism and detail I really have to disagree with you. The scatter algorithms in Vue are too fancied up to make it look more Hollywood, but I wouldn't consider it to be better. Final result matters though, I admit that.
Besides that the noise-fractals for clouds, and the node-based flexibility for adjusting these fractals, allow TG2 to create far more realistic cloudshapes.
I bet a Vue user has the same node-based flexibility to adjust cloud-fractals, but why haven't I seen almost no great cloud images so far?
Your example is nice, but in my opinion not up to par with TG2.
Your TG2 work on clouds is much better, for example ;) Not to mention the dozens of other examples I'd be very happy to drop here if you'd like.
There are much better examples for Vue rock work :) Vue's hyperterrains in combination with the material-editor allows for much greater control and displacement-coolness.
However, the big drawback is stability.
Unlike you suggest I read very often that Vue (Xstream) is very unstable, especially when working with true procedurals. By that I mean procedurals on a planet-wide scale and not locally applied to a heightfield, since that works fine in Vue.
i agree on that par that Terragen stability and most of all speed and app response time is far better for terrain and procedural work than Vue object wise
vue is better From now on when i do indoor and scifi city scapes vue will be my no choice as shown by this rough concept i did here as im still getting used to this workflow.
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/296/3/3/trillion_by_wetbanana-d31csol.png)
but for enormous landscape scenes like my latest Uncharted render Terragen works far better for me ;)
Quote from: wetbanana on November 01, 2010, 12:22:36 AM
i agree on that par that Terragen stability and most of all speed and app response time is far better for terrain and procedural work than Vue object wise
vue is better From now on when i do indoor and scifi city scapes vue will be my no choice as shown by this rough concept i did here as im still getting used to this workflow.
Vue would be a kind of logical choice for indoor and scifi work since TG2 isn't specifically designed for that and probably won't ever be.
Object-integration and rendering could be improved in TG2 to make even more realistic landscapes.
Hi,
Sorry for grabbing old topic, but couldn't resist. IMHO clouds quality from vue will never match TG because (as far as I've tested) vue clouds aren't GI illuminated eg by sky. There is only "ambient" light to fill shadows on clouds. It's easy to check, just change light type in vue (with spectral clouds) from GR to standard and see if it makes difference.
Best regs.
Quote from: Eneen on February 22, 2012, 02:40:52 AM
Hi,
Sorry for grabbing old topic, but couldn't resist. IMHO clouds quality from vue will never match TG because (as far as I've tested) vue clouds aren't GI illuminated eg by sky. There is only "ambient" light to fill shadows on clouds. It's easy to check, just change light type in vue (with spectral clouds) from GR to standard and see if it makes difference.
Best regs.
Check again, Vue does have GI that affects the sky and clouds. In fact Vue has multiple light scattering within the cloud volumes, something which Terragen 2 does not have, yet. ;)
Quote from: ChrisC on February 22, 2012, 06:13:35 PM
Check again, Vue does have GI that affects the sky and clouds. In fact Vue has multiple light scattering within the cloud volumes, something which Terragen 2 does not have, yet. ;)
I suppose it depends how you define "multiple light scattering", but Terragen 2's GI has always included multiple scattering in clouds and atmosphere. The screen-space resolution of the scattering you can capture depends on the GI relative detail and render detail. It won't capture details down to the pixel level, but you can simulate most of the important large-scale effects of multiple scattering.
Matt
I think TG's approach is a bit more "brute force" or "unbiased" if you will, at least in some respects. I remember when "Spectral Atmospheres" were first introduced the clouds were entirely unaffected by local light sources. So if you put a colored light in a cloud, it wouldn't light it up. They made a big deal out of it when they fixed this, it was one of the headline features of Vue 9 I think. Here's the video they used to demonstrate it: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_9_infinite/videos/Jumbo2.html
Whereas in TG2 I believe the volumetric cloud system has inherently included that capability from the beginning, it just takes a more neutral approach in some ways. This means that, rather than support for a particular feature like that as a "headline" thing, like "cloud self shadowing", it's more of a natural result of taking a more comprehensive approach (although it can be adjusted).
- Oshyan
By multiple scattering I think he means, like that described in the article presented in the Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences, Volume 28, April 1971: Benjamin M.Herman, Samuel R. Browning and Robert J. Curran, Institute of Atmospheric Physics, The University of Arazona, Tucson: The Effect of Atmospheric Aerosols on Scattered Sunlight.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
You can define the real world phenomenon. How you simulate it is a very open subject. Both Vue and Terragen simulate multiple scattering, but probably do so in different ways. Neither has a fully accurate solution.
ChrisC, I'm almost sure, clouds are only lit by sun or other emitters, not by sky. Even in relight there is only "ambient" option (controlling ambient color - make it pink and check). It doesn't matter if I turn gi off or on with all indirect options enabled, ultra or user settings, same result, same clouds.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 27, 2010, 08:58:37 AMQuote
It does help the terrain look more Terragen 2, if Vue was stable enough to render (infinite) procedurals. ;)
The re-lighting option is cool though. I saw a comment on youtube and I agreed that the re-lighting is a big win over Terragen 2 as you can re-light atmosphere intensity and colour. You can dramatically change mood etc. for a whole image without having to re-render it.
Just wondering out loud if Planetside gonna put similar or better features into Terragen 2 ?
Quote from: Eneen on February 23, 2012, 04:52:50 PM
ChrisC, I'm almost sure, clouds are only lit by sun or other emitters, not by sky. Even in relight there is only "ambient" option (controlling ambient color - make it pink and check). It doesn't matter if I turn gi off or on with all indirect options enabled, ultra or user settings, same result, same clouds.
Well, i don't know what to say about that. I have used Vue 5 to now, however i am aware that the cloud GI was added to Vue "6" i think. It has been a while since i last used Vue though. You might want to post your issue at there cornucopia forums or contact e-on directly.