Steve jobs of Apple Has passed http://www.apple.com/
(http://applepictures.net/apple-skull.jpg)
:D Classic Franck !!!
God, I hate cancer! RIP, Steve. Never owned an apple product, but used plenty of them that were inspired by S. Jobs and his company....
I would have an iPad if it would have a USB port and would not cost so much money, so I have an Archos.
I would have an iPod if the sound was very good and if I wouldn't need to install iTunes and such bad software to use it, so I have a SONY.
I would have a Mac if I could play my games on it, and if it would not cost that much money, so I have a PC.
I would have an iPhone, but I will never spend 600 Euros on a phone, so I have a Samsung.
What is good in Apple ?
1- their design (definitely not from Steve Jobs, hu ?)
2- their commercial politics (they have been able to sell useless, expensive stuff to people, by making them believe they will be different and will look smart and cool)
3- their fanboys (always defending Apple products, worshipping Steve Jobs as the messiah, and allowing us, not fanboys, to have a good laugh on them)
I am "sad" because Steve Jobs died and he was a clever guy, with inspiring speeches... and he has a family and all...
But c'mon guys, look at the way Apple get their business done in China for example... and that is Steve Jobs responsability :)
anyway...
RIP Steve Jobs
RIP Steve, If it were not for you my PC would not be so good.
A shame but true.
Richard
You're right.
What a way to go, though. Crap.
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2011, 12:35:28 PM
I would have an iPad if it would have a USB port and would not cost so much money, so I have an Archos.
I would have an iPod if the sound was very good and if I wouldn't need to install iTunes and such bad software to use it, so I have a SONY.
I would have a Mac if I could play my games on it, and if it would not cost that much money, so I have a PC.
I would have an iPhone, but I will never spend 600 Euros on a phone, so I have a Samsung.
What is good in Apple ?
1- their design (definitely not from Steve Jobs, hu ?)
2- their commercial politics (they have been able to sell useless, expensive stuff to people, by making them believe they will be different and will look smart and cool)
3- their fanboys (always defending Apple products, worshipping Steve Jobs as the messiah, and allowing us, not fanboys, to have a good laugh on them)
I am "sad" because Steve Jobs died and he was a clever guy, with inspiring speeches... and he has a family and all...
But c'mon guys, look at the way Apple get their business done in China for example... and that is Steve Jobs responsability :)
anyway...
RIP Steve Jobs
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2011, 12:35:28 PM
...
3- their fanboys (always defending Apple products, worshipping Steve Jobs as the messiah, and allowing us, not fanboys, to have a good laugh on them)
I always find it a little insulting if people like you, who have no use for apple products, call people like me a "fanboy", just because contrairy to you I have use for certain apple products.
To clarify, I am not a fan of anything. I use a macbook for work because its battery lasts forever and the usability of the hardware (e.g. the multi touch pad) and applications and the OS is second to none for my work style. That's just a fact and doesn't make me a mindless zombie fan.
Also, you don't have to have a laugh on me or anyone else because of this. I'm pretty certain that most users of apple products are similarly objective regarding their work tools of choice. Please note that nobody dizzes you because of your choice of tools either. Live and let live.
Frank
Frank, I'm not sure if Franck considers every Apple user also an Apple Fanboy, it's not 1:1.
That's my truth anyway if I speak for myself. I know plenty people, like you, who find good use and advantages using some Apple products over non-Apple products.
However, in contrary to fanboys like my laboratory head chief, they do not try to convince you to use Apple-stuff, do not look down upon non-Apple products and don't blindly believe Apple invents everything (a bit similar to nowadays teenagers singing along covers of songs, of which they don't realize it actually is a cover).
They're "just" making slick looking and especially very cleverly designed/chosen user-experience.
Ditto. I didn't mean to take the "fanboy" approach. But, IT has some issues, not exclusive to Apple, like slave labor, etc. I've considered getting an Apple myself, but it just didn't work according to my plan. Another thing someone close to me exposed about Steve Jobs - most of our present PC innovations were in part (if not completely) inspired by something Apple did or was thinking about doing. He was an innovator and maybe wasn't as wicked as some want him to be. I sometimes think people in the limelight are easy targets; in this case, he probably was.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 09, 2011, 06:56:09 AM
Frank, I'm not sure if Franck considers every Apple user also an Apple Fanboy, it's not 1:1.
That's my truth anyway if I speak for myself. I know plenty people, like you, who find good use and advantages using some Apple products over non-Apple products.
However, in contrary to fanboys like my laboratory head chief, they do not try to convince you to use Apple-stuff, do not look down upon non-Apple products and don't blindly believe Apple invents everything (a bit similar to nowadays teenagers singing along covers of songs, of which they don't realize it actually is a cover).
They're "just" making slick looking and especially very cleverly designed/chosen user-experience.
It's been my experience over the 8 years of being a Mac user (after being on Windows for nearly a decade) that anti-Mac individuals are usually the ones to initiate the fight. Point in case: Seth's inappropriate and bigotry laden post in a thread meant to pay final respects to a great man. Why do this?
Seth, I could point out the fallacies in your post with great ease, but your arguments appear so trite I don't think you'd ever see reason.
So out of respect for this thread and this forum, I'll refrain from doing so and simply ask you to show some respect for those who choose differently than you. You are not the authority on what constitutes right or wrong in consumer electronics. Try to understand that.
hey Frank !
I was talking about Apple fanboys, not Apple users ^^
and they are two different things indeed.
Fanboys are the kind of people who will buy every new iProducts just because it is fashionable, Frank. not because it is useful.
Buying stuff to use them because they work better than another one, it is just being smart, not being a fanboy.
anyway... :D
@DutchDimension : why posting this ? because some people like me are just so tired to hear about Steve Jobs as the messiah in the press, TV, etc...
I agree he was a great business man but cut it with the great man blablabla :)
He did used cheap workers in China for us westerners to have those great iCrap everywhere, not even caring about the suicides and everything.
I agree : he was great business man, and he took great decision for Apple.
but that is all. he was not Einstein, nor Da Vinci.
Anyway, don't get me wrong DD, I don't hate Steve Jobs, nor I love Bill Gates. I see that Mac can be great for 2D jobs for example. but well... I don't like the interface and even trying TG2 on a Mac was not as good as on PC from my experience.
But as you said, I don't think I'll change my mind on PC?Mac subject nor on Steve Jobs (maybe on S.Jobs... but i really didn't enjoy using a mac)
That said, you are right : I am not the authority on what constitutes right or wrong in consumer electronics. But I don't think you are neither.
And that is not because a guy died, a guy I didn't even know personnally, that I don't even buy products from, that I will just cry outloud everywhere with everybody, faking sadness and telling everybody he was the best of us all... (see what I mean)
Anyway...
This is really a problem and it includes HP and others like Dell as well, unless they have changed their policies. GE's CEO was on last night's "60 Minutes" explaining why it was great that 60% of his company's work and employees were outside of the U.S. and now he sits on the council of the U.S. President for helping the U.S. economy. I'd say I'm stupid if I don't get it. He doesn't care about the U.S. He cares about his pocketbook - it's what a person does; not what they say.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
He did used cheap workers in China for us westerners to have those great iCrap everywhere, not even caring about the suicides and everything.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
He did used cheap workers in China for us westerners to have those great iCrap everywhere
I guarantee you, many of the products in your house, the very computer you render your TG scenes on, will have been made to some degree by cheap workers in China.
Steve Jobs over the years has tried very hard indeed (and at great cost) to have his products made in the USA. (Look up NeXT and their factory in Fremont, California) It was rival companies making cheap PC's in the East that eventually nearly forced NeXT (and by extension Apple) into bankruptcy. So if you feel the need to lay blame over the situation in China, you might want to take a history lesson first.
And calling it iCrap? Really? How old are you?
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
...not even caring about the suicides and everything.
You know this for a fact? You don't... so let me provide you with some facts then.
Much of the information the media has on the labour issues at Foxconn, Wintek, etc. have been brought to light by Apple themselves through their 'Supplier responsibility reviews' (http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf) which looks at the working conditions at these factories. As you can see, they make the results of these reviews publicly available. They have in the past terminated business entirely with factories found to be in violation of working regulations. Apple has also funded and launched training programs to avoid a repeat of the hiring of workers under the age of 16 (which is the minimum age in China btw).
Furthermore it has been pointed out that the rate of suicide amongst Foxconn employees is actually lower than that of the national Chinese rate. Read more about that little nugget of information here (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/1356).
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
I agree : he was great business man, and he took great decision for Apple.
but that is all. he was not Einstein, nor Da Vinci.
That's for history to decide.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
Anyway, don't get me wrong DD, I don't hate Steve Jobs, nor I love Bill Gates. I see that Mac can be great for 2D jobs for example. but well... I don't like the interface and even trying TG2 on a Mac was not as good as on PC from my experience.
But as you said, I don't think I'll change my mind on PC?Mac subject nor on Steve Jobs (maybe on S.Jobs... but i really didn't enjoy using a mac)
That said, you are right : I am not the authority on what constitutes right or wrong in consumer electronics. But I don't think you are neither.
Exactly, I'm not. And I'm fully aware of that. That's why you won't see me jumping into a thread like this thinking myself superior because I chose differently. To quote Steve Wozniak (the other Apple co-founder):
"I've never been one of those people that takes a big, strong side. Macintosh versus PC. Hey, my preferred machine, the one I'm comfortable with, is a Macintosh, and I've got my reasons, and they're good reasons. But I don't try to apply them to everyone else."I think you could learn from that.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 05:26:55 AM
And that is not because a guy died, a guy I didn't even know personnally, that I don't even buy products from, that I will just cry outloud everywhere with everybody, faking sadness and telling everybody he was the best of us all... (see what I mean)
Anyway...
You could have just taken a higher moral stance and refrained from posting entirely. Instead you came here all riled up, guns blazing, keen to belittle Apple customers, and worse, spit on a man's grave. Totally unnecessary.
QuoteI guarantee you, many of the products in your house, the very computer you render your TG scenes on, will have been made to some degree by cheap workers in China.
Absolutely !!! but I don't worship the brand's boss for that.
QuoteAnd calling it iCrap? Really? How old are you?
35, thank you.
want to patronize me, maybe ?
QuoteMuch of the information the media has on the labour issues at Foxconn, Wintek, etc. have been brought to light by Apple themselves through their 'Supplier responsibility reviews' which looks at the working conditions at these factories.
come on and be honest about that ! Apple has been forced to produced this document.
and even then, in response to the suicides, workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves...
QuoteApple has also funded and launched training programs to avoid a repeat of the hiring of workers under the age of 16 (which is the minimum age in China btw).
In 2011 Apple admitted that its child labor practices in China had worsened. Not great news I guess.
QuoteTo quote Steve Wozniak
Steve Jobs didn't really set the direction of my Apple I and Apple II designs but he did the more important part of turning them into a product that would change the world. I don't deny that.
QuoteYou could have just taken a higher moral stance and refrained from posting entirely.
I could have done that, yes.
but I am not into this morale thing...
And I am not spitting on his grave, I just want to point that he was just a man, not some gourou, perfect in everything and blablabla...
Now, that said, you should just take a deep breath.
you are actually reading a post, in a thread, on internet.
we are all here to talk freely about almost everything we want to.
you disagree with my opinion, that is okay for me.
just try not to patronize me. Asking for age this way, for example just didn't help people to rationalize their thought (that was what you asked) but keeps them being emotionally picked up.
and yes, I do think that a majority of the products are iCrap (sorry)
iTunes is just bad to me, and for example if you want to upload some music from my computer on your iPod, you can't because I don't have iTunes. but if I want to upload music from your mac on my SONY, i can because it is just USB...
Same for the iPad2 : come on !!! no USB ?! at this price ???
anyway you said :
QuoteThat's why you won't see me jumping into a thread like this thinking myself superior because I chose differently.
mmmmh... I never said I was superior because i use PC...
and honestly...
I just feel like you did exactly the opposite of what you said. jumping in and talking like The Professor to his stupid student :)
and as I said in my previous post
QuoteRIP Steve Jobs
Much of the "design" that went into making Apple products so iconic did not come from Steve Jobs but from Jonathan Ive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive).
He created the look we know today. The functionality came from what Steve Jobs wanted but the cool designs and I think a lot of the interface useability came from Jonathyan.
:)
Richard
Quote from: Apple Wikki
Jonathan "Jony" Ive, CBE (born February 1967) is an English designer and the Senior Vice President of Industrial Design at Apple Inc. He is the leading designer and conceptual mind behind the iMac, titanium and aluminum PowerBook G4, G4 Cube, MacBook, unibody MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, iPod, iPhone, and iPad.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
Absolutely !!! but I don't worship the brand's boss for that.
Great. Neither do I. There's a difference between worship and respecting, or admiring. As I hinted at before, during my years as an Apple user I've been the target of many more fanboy attacks from the opposite camp (for lack of a better word) than when I was a Windows user. So please stop perpetuating the myth that this is an Apple phenomenon only.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
35, thank you.
want to patronize me, maybe ?
I'm sorry, but now you know how it feels to be on the receiving end. Maybe next time refrain from instigating and we'll all get along swimmingly. :)
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
come on and be honest about that ! Apple has been forced to produced this document.
And so they should. And they are taking good action. But what would you rather that happened? That Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Amazon.com, Nike, all companies with vested interests pull out entirely? Yanking millions of jobs away from the Chinese? How will that help the situation? It won't. The fact is that China is going through a process that the so called 1st world countries (I hate that term) have already gone through by and large. And us Westerners have gladly taken advantage of that situation for decades because we're addicted to cheap! The Chinese government certainly isn't putting all their weight behind resolving the situation either because it allows them to build up their economy and status as a world dominating power. It's a problem that cannot be laid at the feet of one company. It's much more complicated than that. To claim otherwise while typing on, wearing, or otherwise consuming a 'Made in China' product is nothing short of hypocrisy.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
and even then, in response to the suicides, workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves...
From my understanding that was to waive any rights to financial compensation. Morally questionable though it might be, you'll find that's a clause found in pretty much any life-insurance policy. Moreover, this is Foxconn, not Apple's doing.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
In 2011 Apple admitted that its child labor practices in China had worsened. Not great news I guess.
And in response Apple have intensified their efforts to do something about it.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
I could have done that, yes.
but I am not into this morale thing...
Not a personality trait to be proud of.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
you disagree with my opinion, that is okay for me.
just try not to patronize me.
Simple, don't write bigoted posts if you don't like to be treated in kind.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
and yes, I do think that a majority of the products are iCrap (sorry)
iTunes is just bad to me, and for example if you want to upload some music from my computer on your iPod, you can't because I don't have iTunes. but if I want to upload music from your mac on my SONY, i can because it is just USB...
Same for the iPad2 : come on !!! no USB ?! at this price ???
Erhm... the ports on iPads, iPhones and iPods are all USB. And personally I don't see the how uploading to a media device is worse through iTunes than say Explorer. In fact, there is myriad of advantages attached to organizing one's personal media through iTunes that you as a Windows user are probably not aware of. Automated backups of content and device state, in-program control of firmware updates, organizing and archiving of media all in one place, automated inclusion of mobile purchases into the user's source media library and vice versa, adherence to the Unix folder structure (which introduces it's own set of advantages in the greater scope of the Operating System), automated synchronization of all media across all devices, automatically downloading of cover art, browsing for and buying of media, re-downloading of purchases whenever required, etc. All in one application. Mighty convenient I think. Frankly, the thought of doing it any other way horrifies me. But hey... each to their own.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
I say, FAIL.
35? Honestly?
Cypher: Definitely, Jonathan Ive certainly deserves a lot of praise! Though you may be surprised how much Jobs was involved in the design process. Even from a very early stage onward, all the way back to the first Apple 2 cases. This wiki article about the Apple Industrial Design Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Industrial_Design_Group) makes for fascinating reading.
can you explain me how I can plug in my external hard drive or usb key in an iPad ? :)
what you don't seem to understand, or acting as you don't understand is that the thing I criticize is the way to make people believe Steve Jobs was a flawless genius, that chenge our lives as nobody did before ! and that is bullshit !
when Bill Gates will die, people will say exactly the same of him...
I do think Wosniak was much more important as a creator than Steve Jobs.
I do think he was nothing else than a good business man.
I do think we can say that every company using cheap, underage, exploited people to build their stuff are indeed responsible. It is too easy to say it is the chinese gvt.
Your morale might be as twisted as mine from what i read. (money for a sucide...)
You brought the windows vs Mac subject. I won't defend Microsoft, they are just as bad company as Apple with all their monopole wars.
oh and the last quote (me say, FAIL), you saw that I edited it before you quoted it as i found it offensive and pueril ;)
anyway... we won't agree on this subject I guess
you think he was a genius and I think he was a business man.
you think Apple products are better than others and I don't.
you think it is the China's gvt that is responsible and I say it the companies that use the people that are responsible.
you think your morale is higher than mine and i think it is just a matter of point of view.
you think i should keep my mouth shut because... well i don't really know why... because you disagree with me ?
As for the getting along swimmingly... I've been in here for the last 4 years and it seems everything went pretty well so far ;D
edit : and as a friend of mine just sent me that, I'll share this with you
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/315769_10150321255242496_586152495_8158268_1731676236_n.jpg)
Quote from: DutchDimension on October 10, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
...
And us Westerners have gladly taken advantage of that situation for decades because we're addicted to cheap!
...
I think with "we" you mean the manufacturers/companies? Not us consumers, because we're being taken not so gently in the ass for say 20 years by now because of this capitalistic business model.
I'm pretty sure you can produce whatever product here Europe or US, ask the same price for it and still make some money.
It won't be as much as when you produce it abroad in, say China, but still.
But capitalism/share holders only allows one thing: more profits than last year.
Regardless whatever company it is, it is the underlying mechanism of capitalism which creates these awful situations.
All superbig producers of consumer products are guilty for these practices.
I don't believe any company is more or less guilty than another.
US and European government should add extra tax on the profits of these big companies when their profit is generated by selling products in US/EU which is made dirt cheap in China and decrease tax if you produce within US/EU. (they should add tax on any financial transaction on the stock market anyway, if it is not only for thieves like Goldman Sachs who earn hundreds of millions a month by High Frequency Trading, but that's another discussion).
The Chinese government indeed aids in making this possible by giving the companies a lot of room in paying wages/taxes/etc.
This way you can level out the great advantages of producing cheap in China with all the awful side-effects and create more jobs and economic growth in the US/EU.
Regardless of whether this idea is great or simply sucks, the problem is that the lobby of these big multinationals is so head-deep into the asses of the politicians that the result is that intensive changes like these or any other type will NEVER ever occur.
Cheers,
Martin
(OTOH and something totally different; yes China is becoming a superpower, but they will face similar problems like us, but a lot quicker.
For example, within 20-30 years a vast part of the current population has aged past working age and a social security system needs to be designed to support the elderly. The scale of this aging-problem will be much bigger than say here in The Netherlands where elderly are draining money because of healthcare, retirement and additional costs. In China none of these systems exist yet so they are extremely behind. Their economic growth is staggering, but their future problems grow a lot quicker if you'd ask me.
Given China's socialistic history, not, I don't see a that much flourishing future as many do.
They will get their problems as well, but bigger and much faster, since their demand for food and resources will become really huge.
Most negative scenario is that our world economics, distribution of resources and availability of food do not allow for billions of people with the same level of wealth. I guess many people know what happens when threats are becoming that big...)
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
can you explain me how I can plug in my external hard drive or usb key in an iPad ? :)
A separate stand-alone external HD? I fail to see the benefit of that to be honest. But feel free to educate me. If it can do more than the iTunes approach that I talked about, I'll be impressed.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
what you don't seem to understand, or acting as you don't understand is that the thing I criticize is the way to make people believe Steve Jobs was a flawless genius, that chenge our lives as nobody did before ! and that is bullshit !
Fact is, he did change your live. One could cast significant doubts as to whether we'd be having this debate at all if it wasn't for Apple.
No one says the man was flawless. I don't know where you got that from. Maybe you got blinded by the recent spur of condolences. In a time of mourning it is common courtesy to praise said person.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
Your morale might be as twisted as mine from what i read. (money for a sucide...)
I'm not sure you entirely understood my post.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
You brought the windows vs Mac subject. I won't defend Microsoft, they are just as bad company as Apple with all their monopole wars.
Are you a Linux user then? What other OS are you running then on your PC? My raising of Windows served only to differentiate between Mac users and non Mac users in order to make a point.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
oh and the last quote (me say, FAIL), you saw that I edited it before you quoted it as i found it offensive and pueril ;)
In which case, consider my response to it retracted.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
you think Apple products are better than others and I don't..
I think they are better for me and my family. I'm not so foolish as to claim they are better solutions for everybody. I hope you understand the difference.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
you think it is the China's gvt that is responsible and I say it the companies that use the people that are responsible.
Incorrect. I said I find the Chinese government is *also* responsible. As well as the companies who have their products built there. As well as the end consumer who buys said products. Global economics is an incredibly difficult subject and we, each of us, can only do what little we can, and hope the situation will eventually evolve into something better.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
you think your morale is higher than mine and i think it is just a matter of point of view.
In essence you said you don't care about having morals. I find that unfortunate. How else do you want me to interpret that? I find you a bit confusing here.
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
you think i should keep my mouth shut because... well i don't really know why... because you disagree with me ?
Again, incorrect. But I am a firm believer of the saying: "If you haven't got anything good to say, don't say anything at all unless you are asked to do so".
Tangled-Universe: Agreed. No argument there.
As I said, we won't agree here :)
it is always the same argument pros vs antis...
as for Vue vs TG2, Maya vs 3DSMAX, etc...
let us agree that we disagree and we shall be fine ;D
Hi Franck, the trouble is that you have mixed your opinion with a few statements that are over-generalizations and some that can only insult people who make different buying decisons. I think DutchDimension had a point over you in that this was a memorial post and you started laying out your personal grudge against Apple products, which wasnt exactly the most sensible thing to do.
Anyway, let's move on. Even facts can be looked at from multiple angles so that we dont have to struggle to agree on everything (as far as I am concerned).
regards
Frank
I think we've all said what needed to be said. No hard feelings, so I'm more than happy to move on and get back to one passion we all share. Terragen! :)
;)
Quote from: FrankB on October 10, 2011, 11:46:21 AM
Hi Franck, the trouble is that you have mixed your opinion with a few statements that are over-generalizations and some that can only insult people who make different buying decisons.
you should read again my post Frank.
I didn't insult anyone.
my only statement that could have been misunderstand was about the fanboys. ;)
anyway, as you said, let's move on ;D
Quoteyou should read again my post Frank.
I didn't insult anyone
Actually I felt a little attacked by your initial posts. But I am rather pleased by the ensuing debate and discussion. Steve Jobs is relevant, current, and worthy of discussion. If there had been no disagreement there could be no discussion, and as I said, Jobs is worthy of discussion.
But in the end, to the victor must go the spoils, and hands down DutchDimension has won this debate. I say this not because I am a Mac user (I am) but because his arguments were well thought out and well represented.
Seth, your arguments while containing valid points, seemed over emotional and without Reason. For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. With a caption Paraphrasing a quote usually attributed to Joseph Stalin- ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic"). A quote which was made in connection to the murder of millions and millions of innocent people. I know something about this. I studied at Lomonosov Moscow State University, My wife is Russian my Son is half Russian, I know where the bodies were dumped. And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting! Why would you say these things? What sense could it make to you? Perhaps, as you said, you don't care about morality and therefor are able to say things that have no basis in reality and make no sense.
I am not rebuking you for fun. This is a forum supporting a technology used in art and communication. By your presence here I infer that you are, or want to be, an artist. Don't you know that an artists ability to think is seen in his work? "Think differently", You will find more personal success if you do, and your work will show it.
Anyway, I hold nothing against you, you are free and so am I.
@everyone
Capitalism and freedom/liberty are inseparable, without the one the other falls, this happens in greater and lessor degrees. The truth of this statement is proven by history.
As to the question of corporations, one good thing, that I think everyone can agree on, is that there has never been on the earth a more efficient mechanism, as we see in the corporation, of dispensing goods and services to the population. The price can be negotiated.
The problems the world faces can all be fixed, and no one should have to give up any of their liberty to do it.
Peace
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 AM
Seth, your arguments while containing valid points, seemed over emotional and without Reason. For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. With a caption Paraphrasing a quote usually attributed to Joseph Stalin- ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic"). A quote which was made in connection to the murder of millions and millions of innocent people. I know something about this. I studied at Lomonosov Moscow State University, My wife is Russian my Son is half Russian, I know where the bodies were dumped. And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting! Why would you say these things? What sense could it make to you? Perhaps, as you said, you don't care about morality and therefor are able to say things that have no basis in reality and make no sense.
Despite your proven background knowledge I think you mis-interpreted the image.
In my opinion this image clearly shows the fuzz of Steve Jobs passing away compared to the lack of fuzz about millions dying each year completely unnoticed.
The image clearly is sarcastic about everybody crying over Jobs while not caring about real problems in the world which are definitely worth crying for and deserve more attention.
But, us western people prefer to stay in our comfort zone and try to care as less as possible about other people's problem.
Hence that some people respond like some kind of era ended with Jobs passing away.
Hundreds of millions have bigger and far more important problems than their materialistic gadgets and such.
That's what this image is about.
I think drawing a conclusion which points toward Stalin and other crazy people from history is exaggerated and only based on the coincidential similarity of the image's text with historical quotes.
At least, that's how I look at it.
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 AM
Capitalism and freedom/liberty are inseparable, without the one the other falls, this happens in greater and lessor degrees. The truth of this statement is proven by history.
As to the question of corporations, one good thing, that I think everyone can agree on, is that there has never been on the earth a more efficient mechanism, as we see in the corporation, of dispensing goods and services to the population. The price can be negotiated.
The problems the world faces can all be fixed, and no one should have to give up any of their liberty to do it.
Peace
I would have agreed completely with you if it wasn't for the "The price can be negotiated" part.
In modern capitalism this is inheritently not true since multinationals have distanced themselves completely from every type of control for reasons I explained in my previous lengthy post. Shortly summarized as that economy dictates this world + politics and not politicians themselves who have the means to design laws to allow more control over (negotiations of) prices.
That said I think your critics on Franck as not thinking differently is not justified.
Admittedly the way Franck tends to formulate/put things isn't always the best and incentive, the thinking definitely is different and not mainstream.
Mainstream thinking is what current capitalism/globalism/politicians like the most as it is very easy to control people without critical thinking or people who don't think differently.
They like you dumb better.
Cheers,
Martin
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 AM
you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide
???
absolutely not !!!!
that is completely overstated !
I just wanted to say that millions of people are completely over reacting on Steve Jobs death whereas they don't give a shit about millions african kidz dying !!!
if you don't understand, that I am truely sorry for you !
That just explains why I don't place my morale in the same subject that you do.
and so much for your "think differently" !!!
differently of whom ?
using a Mac (or Apple products) is not anymore "thinking differently", it is "Think Fashionable" nowadays. ::)
And I don't mean that for all the "true" users but for the millions walking around with all their iProducts, not even knowing how to use it properly... but just showing off their expensive gizmos.
As for my so-called art, thank you but I hope that I don't need to think like you do to express something through it.
because it seems that "Think Differently" means "Think Like I Do".
to be honest, you should know that through the ages the morale evolved and that a lot of artists were absolutely not morale people.
here is my website : www.7thcircle.fr
I never tell people i am an artist, i tell them i am a Terragen user.
have a look and tell me if you can see my ability to think. If you don't, that means I am not an artist, and I won't cry about that.
I know so many so called artists, doing ridiculous, meanless things that that won't be an insult. :D
And I totally disagree about the capitalism/freedom statement.
Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with freedom ! neither communism.
if you think so, just ask the millions slaves sold all around the world some centuries ago what they think about capitalism and freedom !!! ;D
I didn't want to talk more about that, but it seems this discussion is not over yet.
Again, my post was not supposed to insult people, so if some of you felt insulted, I apology.
I apology because I didn't want to hurt them.
If I wanted to do that, my posts would have been a lot more offensive.
Believe me.
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 AM
For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. ...And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting!
well now I think you might be over-interpreting this image. I too find it completely misplaced in this threat, (and I can't follow why he continues to provoke), but I think it doesn't go as far as relate to the Stalin thing - it merely seems to say "hello, it's just one individual that died, try spend more of your attention to millions of death-threatened others that still can be rescued", which I a message I think is ok to give. Is it sensible to post this in a memorial thread? Certainly not.
Regards,
Frank
QuoteI think you mis-interpreted the image
The image is a montage. What it says from right to left is Steve Jobs-death, or more abstractly, Rich man poor man. The montage is poorly recycled Bolshevik and Communist propaganda. Remember that montage was refined into an art by Sergei Eisenstein, under stalin, though Eisenstein actually worked in his art against Stalin. Now you see it is a montage, it perpetuates communist propaganda historically used to justify murder, and paraphrases stalin. You still think the quote is coincidental? You say that the image brings up a valid moral point, propaganda always does this, its purpose is to morally justify the hateful violence that always follows. Ignorance is not an excuse.
The idea that because people morn a man like steve Jobs, and do not morn the poor is a lie! Because of Steve Jobs there are less poor, and more opportunities for the poor, even in Africa. So yes we morn him and every one like him, because they are not born nor do they die every day. If we morn the poor, we do nothing but morn. It is a bad image a bad argument and a poor use of Rhetoric. What was intended to be said does not mater, what maters is what was said, directly and indirectly.
Seth said that he did not make the image, that a friend sent it to him. I believe him. But he should of thought more about everything he did and said. The image can not be ignored for what it really is! You can not just wish away history, and say "well thats not what I was trying to say". The Image is hateful, and in the tradition of a practice that has lead to mass murder. It is offensive. Especially in times like these when everyone is scared and angry about the economic situation, remember national socialism anyone?
Further more, I did not accuse Seth of being any of the things I bring up in this post. I said he was not a good debater, and listed reasons why, the image as an example.
I don't see the connection between Bolshevik/Communist propaganda and Apple/Steve Jobs.
Why the specific propaganda should be re-used.
You see it, because of your background, which I don't share so that speaks for you.
Therefore I interpret it differently. I interpret it from modern world situation where people don't care.
Thinking that way I can't imagine I'm a victim of propaganda mechanisms that justifies violence as you explained.
You projected your interpretation of the image into my different interpretation, which doesn't work/apply.
Anyway, perhaps both of us is right.
I'll try to find that specific propaganda you mentioned and see how much tangent it has with this whole Steve Jobs thing.
Cheers,
Martin
QuoteI don't see the connection between Bolshevik/Communist propaganda and Apple/Steve Jobs.
Rich man poor man.
"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them. Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them".
Yes I understand the similarity they have, but that doesn't mean it is actually related to each other. See what I mean?
Why use/make this image, from old propaganda. It has nothing to do with violence and such. I just don't see it (yet?).
Quote from: FrankB on October 11, 2011, 06:12:56 AM
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 AM
For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. ...And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting!
well now I think you might be over-interpreting this image. I too find it completely misplaced in this threat, (and I can't follow why he continues to provoke), but I think it doesn't go as far as relate to the Stalin thing - it merely seems to say "hello, it's just one individual that died, try spend more of your attention to millions of death-threatened others that still can be rescued", which I a message I think is ok to give. Is it sensible to post this in a memorial thread? Certainly not.
Regards,
Frank
Hello frank,
What I said about the image would have been an over reaction if not for what is going on in the world. Look at Grease, look at the the US. The violence is hardly making the news now, but it will grow. If aloud to it will grow and grow. It always does, little by little. So when Seth acts as a provocateur in a simple memorial thread, and says what he said, and then posts that image of people dying in a terrible way, and for the reasons I gave... Yes, I was a little offended.
But I'm done now. No one else needs to be angry because I am. I can stand by my self.
@Badger: Interesting discussion anyway, thanks for your point of view. I obviously don't react the same way you do, but I've learned from your point of view, so thanks for that! Good discussion indeed.
as for history, photomontage is a technique used since mid-victorian era. the communists used it as propagnada, as Usa used it, France, UK, and many other country.
and what you are doing is definitely propaganda for capitalism.
And because Stalin used photomontage as propaganda that would make me a communist propagandist ?!
ahahahah
what a joke !!!
I do think that you are crying for this man, Steve Jobs, who had a great life, but you do not cry on the poor kids everywhere around the Earth.
That is just selfish feeling. you morn him because you feel empty by this loss, because he made you feel better with his company's products. That is definitely a human feeling. selfishness.
tell me where you see a call for violence in this image ???
I see a call for legitimate sorrow, nothing more.
your interpretation of this image is YOUR interpretation, your political interpretation.
that must be very hard for you to watch movies and pictures if you see this picture as communist propaganda !!!
I don't like communism, i don't like capitalism neither.
both of them killed more people than every other political idea through the world (except religion I guess, but this days capitalism is a kind of religion i guess)
And it is not because Stalin said something that this is not true !
as far as I know he said :
"I believe in one thing only, the power of human will."
"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach."
"Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts"
There are tons of them, which you may disagree with but are not wrong because he said that.
I love quotes, they make you feel intellegent when you are just not smart enough to tell good things by yourself, don't you agree ^^
So one from Chomsky
"Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state."
your analyse about this picture is just wrong and as said before, you just see what you want to see because of your background. But that is ot the purpose of this montage.
Quote"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them. Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them".
the same guy said :
"American life is a powerful solvent. It seems to neutralize every intellectual element, however tough and alien it may be, and to fuse it in the native good will, complacency, thoughtlessness, and optimism."
"Fashion is something barbarous, for it produces innovation without reason and imitation without benefit"
TU
It was the casual way he showed people dying as a way to rationalize some hatful things he was saying. This is how the communists used propaganda, and the fascists for that mater. I am not accusing Seth of anything, except passion over reason. If something was wrong 50+ years ago, if it was wrong for nations to use this kind of vitriolic deceitful imagery and messaging, than it is also wrong for us. The point of that image was not the well being of the people depicted!
But I do not want to strain my relationship with you or anyone because I have a strongly held beliefs that no one else cares about. So I will defer to the following and end my involvement in this conversation.
My Life among the Deathworks by Philip Rieff
For the love of beauty: art, history, and the moral foundations of aesthetic judgment by Arthur Pontynen
Seth
I did not say Stalin invented montage, I said Sergei Eisenstein turned it into an art. What did you do google the word montage? But I am not going to fight with you on every little point.
Thank you for provoking an interesting debate.
edit
I just read what you wrote all the way through Seth... You think I don't care about the poor? But you post pictures of the poor dying, an actual photo of men woman and children dying from starvation, just to make a point! Have you ever seen someone die from starvation? You are sick! What is the difference between you who uses the dying just to prove a point in a forum discussion, and the rich corporations who use them for labor? You are worse, at least corporations give the poor a job and a chance however small. But you give them nothing, and take whatever dignity they have left away, even as they are dying! You reduced those peoples lives to an add campaign! Do you really think personal insults against me will move me?
You are a fool.
This is how I saw the image.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 11, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
Despite your proven background knowledge I think you mis-interpreted the image.
In my opinion this image clearly shows the fuzz of Steve Jobs passing away compared to the lack of fuzz about millions dying each year completely unnoticed.
The image clearly is sarcastic about everybody crying over Jobs while not caring about real problems in the world which are definitely worth crying for and deserve more attention.
Cheers,
Martin
One thing I do not think deserves attention is more wealthy men who are abusing the poor with poor labor conditions and sending American jobs overseas and who teach people that their self-worth is based upon owning a piece of cool technology. This came home to me, when watching 60 Minutes special on the CEO of GE - can't swallow that poison.
Oh please everyone, it has been an emotional debate, true, but don't insult each other over it. Also don't jump right on it with more insults if the other person crosses the line.
This was cool (from Brad Peebler at Luxology) -
"His passing hit me in a way I did not expect. I considered him a sort of mentor. I am not an Apple-zealot. I use a PC and Mac interchangeably everyday and I like and hate them both equally. At any rate, Steve was someone I looked up to and while many people talk about his "tyrant" qualities, I never experienced that. Most likely this is because I met him at a later stage in his life. I am not suggesting that he deserves the sort of unconditional praise we see in the press and worldwide over the last few days but at the same time it is unfair to be overly critical of a person you do not know. And to publicly bash someone days after their death is not being sensitive to those who may have known and liked/loved him."
Quote from: calico on October 11, 2011, 08:51:48 AM
This was cool (from Brad Peebler at Luxology) -
"His passing hit me in a way I did not expect. I considered him a sort of mentor. I am not an Apple-zealot. I use a PC and Mac interchangeably everyday and I like and hate them both equally. At any rate, Steve was someone I looked up to and while many people talk about his "tyrant" qualities, I never experienced that. Most likely this is because I met him at a later stage in his life. I am not suggesting that he deserves the sort of unconditional praise we see in the press and worldwide over the last few days but at the same time it is unfair to be overly critical of a person you do not know. And to publicly bash someone days after their death is not being sensitive to those who may have known and liked/loved him."
Very good!
QuoteWhat did you do google the word montage?
no but I kinda like the Dadaism, so it is funny to read that Eisenstein turn photomontage into art, as if nobody did that before him.
QuoteWhat is the difference between you who uses the dying just to prove a point in a forum discussion, and the rich corporations who use them for labor?
I don't make money out of them, I don't use their kids to make even more money, I don't put them into modern slavery.
QuoteYou are worse, at least corporations give the poor a job and a chance however small. But you give them nothing, and take whatever dignity they have left away, even as they are dying!
Are you fucking serious ?
and you say I have no morale ?
using people as slave, let them just surviving because you want to use them to make more and more money is "give the poor a chance" ?!
something is definitely wrong with you.
QuoteYou are sick!
QuoteYou are worse
QuoteYou are a fool.
QuoteDo you really think personal insults against me will move me?
errr...
I said you are selfish, but that is all for the insult i might have told you.
I already apoligize several times in this thread if I offended anyone by my previous posts.
but ... I am not really sure that your insults are a good way to deal with me, if i might say.
Quote from: calico on October 11, 2011, 08:51:48 AM
This was cool (from Brad Peebler at Luxology) -
"His passing hit me in a way I did not expect. I considered him a sort of mentor. I am not an Apple-zealot. I use a PC and Mac interchangeably everyday and I like and hate them both equally. At any rate, Steve was someone I looked up to and while many people talk about his "tyrant" qualities, I never experienced that. Most likely this is because I met him at a later stage in his life. I am not suggesting that he deserves the sort of unconditional praise we see in the press and worldwide over the last few days but at the same time it is unfair to be overly critical of a person you do not know. And to publicly bash someone days after their death is not being sensitive to those who may have known and liked/loved him."
That is a good quote.
That means that we have to wait some time before speaking the truth about people when they die ? ^^
I am joking calico, I understand your point :)
Quoteno but I kinda like the Dadaism, so it is funny to read that Eisenstein turn photomontage into art, as if nobody did that before him.
Dadaism is not Montage it is Collage, but that is not the point of Dadaism. Dadaisms principal focus was mockery, so I understand why you like it.
Read about the film "Ivan the terrible", by S. Eisenstein.
Anyway I really am finished now. I expect you will want the last word, good luck with that.
thank you for that.
first of all, maybe it was misunderstanding from me but in french photomontage and collage can be the same thing. and Dadaism is photomontage for me.
If you know ABCD from Hausmann, we call that photomontage in french.
but to come back on Steve Jobs
here my position on this subject, better written by far.
http://i.imgur.com/hIcgm.jpg
debating with DutchDimension was interesting even if I lost the debate. ;)
But debating with you was really not nice.
I love debating and I really like to be the Devil's advocate.
But being insulted and patronized just because you disagree, and because you interpret things instead of trying to understand them really pissed me off.
I don't ask people to agree with me, just to try to understand my point. As I try to understand others even if I don't agree. (like the last post from calico, I absolutely truely disagree but I understand)
You didn't like me "jumping" in the thread about steve Jobs death.
But I was talking about Jobs and Apple, even if it was to say they don't fit my taste.
Maybe you will say that this journalist (who wrote this article I linked) is a fool, and he doesn't know anything, and he is just doing something really out of morale by trying to express his opinion on Steve Jobs.
Leaving the discussion now is very strange.
you jumped in to criticize me, which is your right and I even appreciate it because debates are always interesting.
but then you insult me, calling me fool and all and now you are leaving ?
what is the point in that ?
maybe you just understood that your political explaination of the picture is totally out of subject...
anyway, I am still here and if others want to debate about Steve Jobs and Apple... I'm here guys ;D
Wow - 40 Billion Dollars.
Thanks for the link, 'Seth'. ;D
Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2011, 11:39:28 AM
...
but to come back on Steve Jobs
here my position on this subject, better written by far.
http://i.imgur.com/hIcgm.jpg
I don't know, this article would only be good if it was true that people (at large) would *actually*, and literally shed tears or are in true mourning.
I believe most people get by this news thinking "oh, pity. he was a very interesting person and I liked this and that about him. Shame he wasn't given more time to do things that I liked.", and then get on with their day - maybe over the next few days wondering about what will become of apple and maybe remembering a few moments that impressed them.
Granted, there might be a few with true grief, as if Steve was some kind of messiah, but clearly they are the minority. And because they are a minority, this article, and also your view on the subject Franck, is over the top. Both the article and your point of view Franck, are based on the assumption that people *actually* are in true sorrow and grief about this event. So it's like you're fighting back an attack against your values, that didn't even exist (at large).
What journalists write is one thing, what people think is another.
Cheers;
Frank
did you see what happened in front and inside some Apple Stores ???
people praying on their kneels, some crying....
but you are right.
only a few people are in true sorrow.
and as you said journalists writings are not always reality (rarely are).
And I agree with you, that the problem has more to do with the media and how they present things and how the people react to that.
it is always stunning to see how people can just drink media speech as it was truth in words.
but again, people feel concern about him... more than they feel concern about real subjects...
they sent 10000 tweets by seconds when he died !!!
and all the people were talking about that.
that is just crazy...
I haven't seen any cry & weep outburst footage, but I can imagine it happened. But even then some of those people might be just very empathetic and just go pray like they would for anyone else. Although even I think yes there are some people who are religious towards Steve as an icon.
I'm just sure it's a minority overall. Crying people having a breakdown inside an apple store is "newsworthy" footage, it will be shown on TV and spread over youtube, twitter ets... The reactions of the average man has nothing to "show" so media aren't presenting this.
So the easy conclusion for the observer is "Apple fans over-reacting religiously over the death of near-messiah Steve", and therefore "All Apple Users are self consumed egoists and don't care about the real problems in the world" .... and that of course arouses some emotions whether people have their values set straight.
But it's all based on wrong assumptions!!
I don't mind the tweets / second. This is newsworthy stuff and twitterers are self-made news wires, however unimportant they might be ;)
So it's natural that this created some buzz.
Cheers,
Frank
"All Apple Users are self consumed egoists and don't care about the real problems in the world"
nobody said that though :)
yes I know, but it's kind of what you get watching/reading the article.
Some people become "icons" in that what they represent is very different from who they are, think Princess Diana or just about any Pope. Both are "deemed" above criticism but neither have lived perfect lives. The value of an icon is that it allows us to express feelings that would otherwise overwhelm us. We (well I then, I shan't speak for others), can't express or even comprehend the extent of suffering in this world but I can understand the loss of an individual, something I and many of us have experienced. This is one of those times when the "truth" truly is subjective, the mans legend or shadow have eclipsed the personality itself, something that must have been quite difficult to live with on reflection, both for him, his close companions and to an small extent, the rest of us.
Just my two cents!
Cheers
Richard
I agree with almost everything you said Richard;
except the part saying it mst have been difficult to be an icon.
it must have been so hard to live with all those millions dollars knowing that your kids will have enough money to live in no need of anything ;)
Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
I agree with almost everything you said Richard;
except the part saying it mst have been difficult to be an icon.
it must have been so hard to live with all those millions dollars knowing that your kids will have enough money to live in no need of anything ;)
Oh I'm sure the money helped, but when people get that rich they tend to loose touch with reality, check out the various ego inflated pop, movie and political stars! Sure it would be fun, but I would not want to swap places with the mega rich, maybe just the ordinary rich, !! ;D
Richard
I personally don't think Steve Jobs was a bad person. He had a lot of passion for what he did. Maybe he was funded by DARPA, as I've read. It's obviously bad that Apple products are made by low paid workers in China but is this Steve Job's fault?
Any Apple products I've had have been good. I'm typing this from a Macbook Pro although my other computers where I do music and graphics are Linux. OSX is a reliable OS. Apple products are beautifully designed. I use my Macbook for basic daily stuff like browsing the net where I only need a laptop. I didn't buy this new though. It's second hand. I'm not saying Apple are perfect but the products are decent. As for Windows, don't get me started. Microsoft are a model of corruption. Bill Gates and his family are definitely not decent people.
However, the real problem is a general culture of total ignorance. People want lots of cheap stuff and they don't really care what slaves make it even if their neighbour is put out of a job due to this. They don't care about The US or most of Europe being deliberately de-industrialized. Now most people can't buy stuff made by people on decent wages because that wealth has been stolen. Currently it's being ploughed into a massive military build up in the Middle East to threaten one of the very countries who make that stuff you buy and have been lending you the money to buy it - China. China is of course a totalitarian state. This is coming your way soon but much worse than China. What goes around comes around. Russia are being forced into a military built up with intent to defend itself from currently escalating US and European aggression spurred by a collapsing economy (collapsed by design). USA in particular has not long to go now before it passes the point of no return. It's being duped into a war with the rest of the world that it can not possibly win - in exactly the same way Germany was (twice) and for exactly the same reasons. Free, industrious and wealthy sovereign nations are no good to international elites whose system needs regular population culls and reduction to poverty otherwise their system based on Oligarchical principles of economics can't sustain itself. It has to bail itself out by eventually using, wars, genocides etc, once the banking bailouts fail. If they are not stopped, the dark ages in Europe will look like a picnic compared to the coming collapse.
There are more important issues than Steve Jobs dying. That I do agree with.
And just a note about that article by Neeraj Thakur. It's really quite twisted. Steve Jobs was not just a celebrity. He also uses Jonas Edward Salk (the developer of the polio vaccine) as an example of somebody to praise. Bad choice because Salk was also involved in medical experiments on human beings.