http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/the-paying-to-work-for-free-vfx-business-model/
Interesting article. Hope to see somebody touch this one. :o
This article makes me mad as hell!
If everything in the article is true I would support unionization. So long as the union did not become just another paid agent of leftist politics (I know I'm asking a lot)
Dam, at least a Guild with some power!
Anyone who pays to take this program is a fool. You would be better off taking a job for 10$ an hour than going 100,000$ into debt (with interest rates), for a chance to maybe get a full time job for 30-40hr. Such bullshit! This really makes me mad. I almost cannot believe its a true story. These programs are exploitation, and I'm saying this as a conservative.
What is interesting is that there are close ties here in Planetside to Digital Domain, so I'm hoping for varying points of view.
Just to show some other experienced professionals' opinions and conjectures about the future of VFx - http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=64713&page=1
I'm very willing to talk to anyone about this, if anyone wants to. It's a mess, in my opinion.
I had wanted to go to an art school for a time some time back but the more i investigated that most of these schools are connected to the Fannie Mae Government-based loans, that was the end of that. For one, i have zero trust for Fannie Mae and am not willing to risk spending thirty years or so paying of unrealistically high tuition fees. The diploma is no guarantee and a job is no guarantee so what am i doing, studying at home and not going into debt.
I would not mind working for free if someone was hurting so much that they needed those services badly and i felt in my heart to voluntarily help someone, however a means of monetary compensation is only fair in most cases. If i provide a good and or service then the reward for my hard work should be some means of being compensated while the individual or party is provided for. A negotiable and fair trade off serving the interests of everyone. That is real Capitalism.
I completely agree. As far as defining Capitalism, what matters to me is that before it was called Capitalism, it was common sense. You give me a loaf of bread because I gave you milk from the goat I keep. Anything else is disastrous, but some people just don't want to work because stealing from others seems easier...including businesses.
Quote from: ChrisC on March 29, 2012, 03:53:43 PM
I would not mind working for free if someone was hurting so much that they needed those services badly and i felt in my heart to voluntarily help someone, however a means of monetary compensation is only fair in most cases. If i provide a good and or service then the reward for my hard work should be some means of being compensated while the individual or party is provided for. A negotiable and fair trade off serving the interests of everyone. That is real Capitalism.
Quote from: calico on March 29, 2012, 04:13:12 PM
I completely agree. As far as defining Capitalism, what matters to me is that before it was called Capitalism, it was common sense. You give me a loaf of bread because I gave you milk from the goat I keep. Anything else is disastrous, but some people just don't want to work because stealing from others seems easier...including businesses.
Indeed. :)
Quote from: ChrisC on March 29, 2012, 03:44:41 PM
...The diploma is no guarantee and a job is no guarantee so what am i doing, studying at home and not going into debt.
I applaud your wisdom ChrisC. Truly.
In modern art schools across the country (University system), the modernist perspective that artistry cannot be taught has been widely adopted. What this means is that the schools believe that talent is intrinsic and students have it or they do not. The result is that all they try to teach is technique or method (tutorials). This makes university instruction no better than a trade education. Or learning by your self on the net, and probably not even as good as that.
Art history (cultural/intellectual) is debased even further. Where understanding of meaning and intent was once the focus of art history studies, now all you learn is names and dates. It is now considered an unscholarly question to ask if something is true! This is a terrible insult to all art, since for the last 3000 years (until the modern age) all art was solely concerned with Truth. (Truth; Athena, Colombia, the holy spirit ect.) And the consequences of Truth (cultural/intellectual).
When applying for a job now, no one cares where you went to school. And why should they?. They only care if, and how well you can do the work, and that is what a demo is for.
I'm not saying people should not go to college. I'm just saying make sure you know why you want to go. Know the program, the teachers and what they are going to teach. Otherwise your just wasting time and money.
In my un-humble opinion, college has become a racket. Not all everywhere, but mostly. Certainly where the fine arts are concerned.
Quote from: calico on March 29, 2012, 12:08:41 PM
What is interesting is that there are close ties here in Planetside to Digital Domain...
What do you mean by this? I doubt anyone here is getting some kind of kickback from the Digital Domain business model.
Yes, i was so desperate to get into school that i should have taken time out to research my decision early on but later i thought it over and over, read what these schools are getting away with and the unreasonable amount of loans to take out, the next bubble to burst as tuition can only be artificially inflated so much and these models cannot work. No reason what so ever tuition costs should be the way they are. In the end, learning at home is more affordable and you do not have to take to some standard nor hate some professor for the day. The nice element of art is there are no real rules and no standard of how something should be done or some favored technique. I classify myself as a realist (certain rules do apply) in art but my approach and techniques would not be the same as what a school might dictate and that can hinder a visionary. It is certainly a racket, mostly.
@TheBadger - Matt once worked at Digital Domain and has even done some work for them since then.
While I agree training is mostly inept nowadays, I do have a disagreement with this statement and since it's my thread I don't mind a small diversion. ;D
It really is sort of related, though. Art has rules - rules of perspective, of color, of light, of understanding medium...to name a few. For example, one of the things zBrush experts say again and again is how important understanding anatomy is and being able to create accurate anatomy is foundational to create any other sort of creature like a human or completely different than human.
So there are ways things should be done and taught and learned.
Quote from: ChrisC on March 30, 2012, 02:42:59 AM
The nice element of art is there are no real rules and no standard of how something should be done or some favored technique.
I think what i should have meant was one's style, teaching methods and one's personal approach but yes, the fundamentals do have rules. I think with surrealism and abstracts you can bend the rules to some degree though. Picasso is a good example.
Roger. Interesting history, that one.
Quote from: ChrisC on March 30, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
Picasso is a good example.
Just to be clear, there is no ongoing affiliation or cooperation between Planetside and Digital Domain, formal or otherwise.
Speaking personally, not on behalf of Planetside, I am disappointed by a major player in the industry moving in this direction. It's a tough industry to be in on either end - as employer or employee - but I think this is just exploiting people.
- Oshyan
Thanks for that Oshyan, its good to know that the people at Planetside think about the human side of business. But you guys have proven this many times, at least in my eyes.
What surprised me most in that article (if its all true) is that the Gnomon school in L.A. is going down this path. I cant believe that the industry and culture in LA would let this go on. If the unions would stop getting into bed with politicians, maybe they would have more time to take care of their people better. Maybe then not so many people would hate unions.
Gnomon, huh. That was another school i wanted to get in as well. Sad. However, i can say that there DVD Tutorials are fairly priced.
Unions for sure are not what they used to be.
Quote from: ChrisC on April 01, 2012, 03:52:39 PM
Gnomon, huh. That was another school i wanted to get in as well. Sad. However, i can say that there DVD Tutorials are fairly priced.
Unions for sure are not what they used to be.
Yeah, despite everything I said (which I really do feel) I still think about going to Gnomon for the equivalent of an MFA, or to the SAIC to get my real MFA. But this desire only helps me to understand how people can get roped into bad deals like those in the article above. If I was rich and could waste money I would do it. But even if I was rich I would not pay those schools to work on their projects, just out of spite.
I have some Gnomon DVDs. They are nice, and you can sometimes find them used on Amazon for even less.
Quote from: ChrisC on April 01, 2012, 03:52:39 PM
Unions for sure are not what they used to be.
I have to say that there is some good in everything. The Unions helped the U.S. defeat communism in the states during the depression and earlier, by providing labor movements an alternative to communism. The unions were forced to become so anti communist to survive, that members actively worked against the communist party start ups in a clandestine fashion. To bad the unions of today are not as smart as they used to be. Maybe conservatives would call them patriots rather than socialists. And things could start to improve for everybody.
Thanks Oshyan. I didn't know about the change with DD. But, I do appreciate hearing your opinion.
It takes so much skill, talent, and dedication to work through all of this software and learn how to be useful in it. Not recognizing this effort is hugely disrespectful.
And welcome back!
What worries me particularity about today's Unions is this Mob Rule mentality, connections with a powerful influence to certain Lobby Groups (both state and federal) and making many unrealistic demands which in turn can harm a competitive market place. The end result also hurts young minimum wage earners because of such demands.
Their thugs. Its as simple as that. So are the Union busters. The rest of us just suffer in the wake of their stupidity and power lust.
I had great hopes someone would arrive on the stage for this current presidential campaign, someone who could actually unite and bring hope, a leader. But as everyone can see, thats not going to happen.
America is like van gogh, who shot him self in the head in a barren field, and could not even get that right. Passion and stupidity is the legacy of the baby boomers generation, whatever else they are, this is how history will remember them.
Not so sure, delegates still need to be counted. It's still early. ;)
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=127193
Yes, that is very disappointing. I would rather make minimum wage then work for just entirely nothing. I still need food to eat, clothing on my back and a home look after. Unless the Government want's to just hand me out entitlements under a inflating welfare state to pay for all my living so i can bum off of the 53% through forced coercion but then i would fell like compete human trash.
From that thread you posted
Quotehttp://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/about/
"The top box office grossing films of the last 30 years were driven by an abundant amount of visual effects and so were the top 100 films of all time which made a combined amount of $56 Billion dollars. If you were new to this industry, you would suspect that the companies that administer visual effects for the Hollywood conglomerates would be fortune 500 companies with stock prices that rival Apple or Google.
Isn't it ironic that the visual effects industry is one of the worst businesses to be in? Each facility operates on a flawed business model by losing or making no money at all on the blockbuster films they conduct work on. On a good year they will make a profit margin as small as 3-5%. How can this be possible? The reason why is Hollywood studio conglomerates effectively leverage their position by pitting vfx facilities so strongly against each other that eventually one company ends up taking the project for a loss. In fact, one producer was so bold as to state in an article that:
If I don't put a visual effects shop out of business (on my movie), I'm not doing my job."
__________________
"O K, so what's the speed of dark?"
Demo reel
http://www.box.net/shared/static/mxlfdh3448.mov
Quote from: ChrisC on April 02, 2012, 11:17:40 PM
Not so sure, delegates still need to be counted. It's still early. ;)
Are you still counting? :-\ ;)
At one time in the US, it was a religious, cultural, societal, belief that ripping people off was wrong. Of course it's always been that someone is out there taking advantage of others, but those people, however rich they became, were not viewed as heroes of industry. Now?
All of western civilizations ideals are dying. This story in the OP is just one example that effects the people in this community in an obvious way. I'm not talking about politics, right or left, I'm talking about who we are (were) as a civilization.
Liberty is traded for fear, and never is safety found. Then we sell our children in to serfdom for some of the same ideas we fought wars against.
AND where are all the artists?!? In history artists were a vehicle for Truth, liberating the minds of the masses. Goya, Jacques-Louis David, just to name two who move me. Well? The artists are all busy worrying about meaningless esthetics, and can't be bothered right now, when they do have time, their busy playing with politics, reducing art to party propaganda. Sure is pretty though.
The artists who work in VFX have a natural link to the biggest canvas ever made. If only they would pull together. Then again, why should an FX union be any different than the rest of them?
Not counting but i have hope and i think the folks are waking up to that fact. Worse case scenario we have a "good" revolution and start over. We defy the "kings" just as the Founders did with King George's tyrannical state. If we are on a road to serfdom which we very well could be then we overthrow the rulers at some point. There are more of us then them.
As an Artist who is more traditional then digital, i to value the classics and the value of what they did. I hate Politics most of the time and all i want is Liberty, less Government and Free Enterprise. Competition is good but stabbing others in the back is not. In a Free Market, there still needs to be principles and we are loosing that. Post-Modernism, Progressive Ideologies, and the 60s really changed what we once were.
Art to me is creating other worlds with positive messages thrown in. I will never do Art for the sake of making an individual or a group of people by means of forced coercion to alter there life-style or individual thoughts nor freedom. The Artists should stay out of Activism as Hollywood nor the Liberal Academics should never be the majority rule for the rest of the nation and what they feel is in there self-interests to alter Government. Good intentions can have bad consequences. Every person should be liberated to what they want as long as they do not harm others. We would prosper and not have Lobbyists telling us and the Market what to do.
In a Free Enterprise system with limited Government, the back stabbers will loose and they will not be bailed out. The Marker will correct itself and there is less risk in investments. More Jobs can be started that way. The polluters will be taken to court as Private Property rights will reign in. Contract Laws will make certain no one gets away with anything. Food safety can be overlooked by the food companies themselves if the public demands it. The freedom to grow our own healthy food as subsidies and government-owned land are eliminated. The successful will win and anyone will have the opportunity to compete fairly and society will progress and new investments will be made, new technologies will get into the Marker faster, quality will go up, other nations will become good trading partners, we will be allowed to keep more of our money, safe it, invest it. The best spenders of money is you, the individual.
http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=65018&page=0
Read the very bottom by "Chris Clyde". I agree with his points.
Man i am really stunned to read some things you write here!
Probably all you live in USA ,England etc. ?
Your view of economy , unions etc is so nice i think the very rich guys are laughing hard when they read these things you think are good for the masses !
Did you thought why mostly the equivalent hard disks , LCD's etc. are nearly in the same price range? Free Enterprise ?
Yes free to not undermine themselves . They do this all the time.
Some times you hear a lawsuit but mostly not. Yeah no need for government (says the corporations )!*
And "All of western civilizations ideals are dying" ...yeah they can not do slavery anymore (It has other names now).
Imperialism in the name of democracy and religion etc...Or was it the other way around? Anyway...
Those where the days with principles !*
How could the artists stand against the corporations?
I hate politics too and sometimes think that i am naive , but you are really interesting guys that only see the the flowers and trees without the bears ,centipede etc.
*Sarcasm.
I think you misunderstand us Kadri. We are mostly talking about ideals, not reality. How things and people should be.
For example, You sound like you support unions. Well it may surprise you, but so do I. But I find it hard to swallow, that in order to be in a union I MUST as a member give money to the union, who then gives it to a political party that actively works to undermine the things I believe in. They do not give members a choice as to what the union bosses do with the money.
So Kadri, what am I to do then. Join a union and maybe get better pay, at the expense of my principals and beliefs. Or stand on my principals and be poor? You tell me.
Personally I don't think its a fair choice.
Ideally, unions should not be joined at the hip with any political party. If they were not attached to politics I appose then I could support the unions.
Yes it is complicated of course but i can not separate unions , economy ,politics from each other .
Nothing of these are an island of itself.
I am in a union that have some actions i can not believe and not approve. What should i do?
Other unions do not represent my world view at all! Should i go without a union? No this doesn't help.
Some times we have to choose . It may not be ideal , but what is?
The topic is very clear to me. This is a classic example ripping off the students , taxpayer etc.
Well, there are Unions that have no connections to Politics as well. Not all Unions are inherently bad. Just a good portion of them. There was some Grocery Market protests here not too far back and they were making threats to those wanting to still shop at these markets but the thing is we still have to eat. It is when they make unrealistic demands that tend to drive away potential employees that is where i draw the line. A GM Union member may make up to 30$ per hr. That is a lot of cash and if they make demands that it is not enough and require a pay raise, i would raise an eye brow at that action. Maybe they don't need a huge house, a new BMW, expensive vocations, designer clothing, the point is some do not live within there means and are not content with what they have. Of course i am not accusing you of such because how can i as i do not know you personally. Perhaps you are a part of not being the worse Union out there.
I also am against big corporations when they create a monopoly and are connected to Government. Also i hate Imperialism and the fact that we occupy other countries, this is very wrong. With the corruption going on in some of these companies, many are better off being independent free lancers. It can be done. Believe me, my life sucks. I am on Welfare and want to get back to work badly and stop getting Government handouts. I live in the poverty line in one of the areas that was hit the hardest during the housing downturn.
It is good that you understand the main topic. I tend to go off because i am a visionary with big ideas and dream of better tomorrows. Artist mentality. ;) If not in this life, then the next. I am always an optimist.
Quote from: ChrisC on April 07, 2012, 01:27:04 PM
...I am on Welfare and want to get back to work badly and stop getting Government handouts. I live in the poverty line in one of the areas that was hit the hardest during the housing downturn...
Sorry to hear this! I hope you will get better Chris.
Quote from: Kadri on April 07, 2012, 01:59:49 PM
Quote from: ChrisC on April 07, 2012, 01:27:04 PM
...I am on Welfare and want to get back to work badly and stop getting Government handouts. I live in the poverty line in one of the areas that was hit the hardest during the housing downturn...
Sorry to hear this! I hope you will get better Chris.
No worries, every day i persevere and know that in spite of this necessary dependency i can in time develop skills to where i can eventually thrive in the market place and can take it with me where ever there is a better economy. I can then finally say good bye to my folks. :)
:)
Quote from: calico on March 29, 2012, 11:17:34 AMhttp://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/the-paying-to-work-for-free-vfx-business-model/
Interesting article. Hope to see somebody touch this one. :o
When the news came, several weeks ago, that one of the major VFX studio has branched out to China, at that time I already had suspicions that they were going to do what they do in the States, in China
Maybe they can make more money in China that way