Have been hearing a lot of news about the presidential election in US news.
Frankly its a little strange to hear so much about a european election, other than that it is happening and who is running. And even stranger is that the news has been rather impartial, just the facts really.
So can any one in this community, who is in france or in europe tell me whats going on? I need an opinion fix!
Sorry, my English is not good enough to talk about politics.
Just a factual thing: French "socialistes" are center left, not communists like I've read in some NYTimes comments at the time of Strauss Kahn case. For exemple: An importante part of the "privatisations" (when a governemental business go to private sector) in France was made by the socialistes (and in my point of view, if it was a good thing for business, it was not a good thing for people wallet, but that is an other debate).
And yes, Marine Lepen (and Front National) result is disturbing/worrying (I don't know which of these term is the stronger).
Maybe you can link here some of the US news you saw, and another french dude, who speak a perfect english, may comment them (There are so many lack of understanding, disagreement, bashing, between US UK and French... Be a little more specific on topic can't be wrong). ;)
Sarkozy = Republicans
Hollande = Democrates
Le Pen = Right side of Republicans, Tea Party
Melenchon = Communists (!)
We'll have either Hollande or Sarkozy as a president.
We'll be under foreign banks' attacks whatever the result will be, because of our debt (which is far less important than the english or US' one)
And nothing will really change in our country. We are following Greece, and obviously, in few years, we'll sink.
But don't be jealous, USA will sink too ;D
USA have a debt of 15 000 thousands billions dollars, which represents 99% of your incomes. And you now are in debt with China, who bought your debt back (well a part of it)
Anyway... in 2 weeks will have a new president, or not, and our life won't change.
And I disagree with Chinasky. I don't think Le Pen results are disturbing, they are absolutely normal and the result of 30 years of immigrationist politic. Some french people live in very bad area, poor and unemployed. and with time, the original white catholic french (that is rude and simplified version of our history uh), have been "colonised" by all the immigration's waves.
That means that a lot of places in all the big cities suburbs are now, the place where live immigrants that are, in majority, muslim from North Africa.If you are white, you are a minority.
Plus the fact that the last 30 years, we heard our gvts telling french people that we are supposed to change of our way of life to the way of life of the new imcoming people.
they don't need to accept the french way of life, they can just continue to live as they did before, and the french people have to accept it. Otherwise, they are racists !!!!
So, I don't think it is disturbing that Le Pen had such a high score, it is normal and our politics did exactly the job needed for her to be so high in this elections.
Oh, and I do not vote ! F#CK THIS SYSTEM !
QuoteAnd even stranger is that the news has been rather impartial, just the facts really.
That is not what I read on some papers from USA. They don't even know Hollande and call him "the socialist", and we all know this is not a very good way to be called in the US ;D
not mentioning the fact that Hollande wants us out of Afghanistan as quickly as possible (which is good, we never should have follow the USA, again, in a war), and that creates a deep relationships problems between our 2 countries.
Franck, you should just make a movie and get it over with. :P
Quote from: calico on April 24, 2012, 08:53:31 AM
Franck, you should just make a movie and get it over with. :P
;D
Hey guys, thanks!
I'm afraid I don't think I can get to specific with my questions, I just don't know enough of French life to ask but general questions.
I am just interested because France and the the U.S. have similar fundamental views of liberty and freedom. Our revolutions occurring in the same age, for example. Though I am aware of some fundamental differences.
I think there are a lot of similarities between our intellectual voices too, where ideologies are concerned. So I was looking at the the news in france for ideas about what the debates here will sound like (not specifics, just general stuff).
Hey Seth,
On what you wrote about Le Pen:
Its interesting! France has always had difficulties with Islam. Anyone remember a man called Charlemagne? maybe he will return! He's one of my favorite historical figures, so any chance to mention him ;)
By the way, I also agree with you on your outlook, of Frances and Americas economic futures. We are all completely screwed! The trouble is, history shows nations don't go quietly into the night. There will be more war.
Seth and Chinaski-
I would not read the NYT, unless you are running for office your self ;), anyway, don't read the opinion section, its written by ass hats, and wont give you a good idea of what most Americas think about anything.
Thanks for letting me hear what some real people in france think.
*Oh one more thing...
On the issue of poor people in france. I have only seen photos and commentary on this during the paris riots a while back. But I have to say, if the images on the news were accurate, the rioters did not really look poor. But I don't know the truth of this...
Those neighborhoods were beautiful! If you want to see ugly poverty visit some neighborhoods in Chicago. (wear a bullet proof jacket when you visit :-X)
I never voted myself either, even early on i always thought the system was run by the establishment of either party but was to young to put into detail. Used to be a Neo-Con and i did not even know it. :P Now i know if Ron Paul does not win and give us back our freedoms were doomed and honestly i do not think there is any place better to live overall on the entire planet. The people here are waking up though and know we have been ruled by big government far to long. Mostly younger folks but the older folks like myself have enough common sense to see what is going on as well. This system here in the US is not sustainable and must be changed.
QuoteAnd yes, Marine Lepen (and Front National) result is disturbing/worrying (I don't know which of these term is the stronger).
what i think we need to do about it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTUDXLKI3LY
I'm so tired how left and right wings try to excuse people who vote FN. It's like to be blind. It's not a despair vote.
Mass racism coming back in our country that's the all thing.
Sarkosy and Ump have a lot of responsability in this.
DAmm 20 % shame on us.
The only country with more than 20% is Autria i think.
Shame on us.
And don't talk to me about Goldwin point !!!!!!!
Ah, c'est en train de tourner au débat franco-français ici!
@Seth: Juste, quand même, quelque chose, que je peux difficilement laisser passer, le Front de Gauche (Mélanchon pour nos amis anglophone) ce n'est pas QUE les communistes, c'est la réunion de plusieurs partis. Politiquement, il sont, évidemment plus à gauche que Hollande mais de là à les réduire au simple "communistes"...
Je passe aussi sur les considérations de "couleurs", c'est peut-être le fait que ce soit en anglais mais ça passe mal. Le soit-disant "creuset" à la française marchant plutôt mal, les immigrés restent entre eux.
Par contre j'ai un doute pour les Etats-Unis, le fait qu'il soit extrèmement endettés ce n'est pas une de leur stratégie économique? (en tout cas c'est ce qu'on apprend en cour de géographie) :) . Après, rien ne dit que leur système ne puisse pas arrivé à saturation.
Après même si je me fait pas vraiment d'illusion, quelque soit l'élus (l'emballage changera avec un peu de chance et se serait quand même bien plus agréable à l'oeil), je pense qu'il faut voter, ne serait ce parce que que si on ne le fait pas, après on est mal positionné pour râler.
Désolé si mon ton peut sembler parfois trop didactique, mais il faut que nos amis anglais suivent un minimum^^
Oh, that's about to turn the Franco-French debate here!
@ Seth: anyway, something that I can hardly pass up, the Left Front (Mélanchon for our English friends) it's not THAT the Communists, is a combination of several parties. Politically, there are obviously more left than Holland but then to reduce them to simply "communist" ...
I also pass on considerations of "color" is perhaps the fact that it is in English but it goes wrong. The so-called "melting pot" French walking rather badly, immigrants keep to themselves.
Other side, I have a question for the United States, the fact that it is extremely indebted not one of their economic strategy? (at least that's what we learned in court of Geography) :). After, nothing says that their system can not reached saturation.
After even if I did not really illusion, whatever the elected officials (the packaging will change with a little luck and would still be much more pleasing to the eye), I think we should vote, not is it because if it does not, it is poorly positioned to complain about.
Sad if my tone may seem sometimes too didactic, but we need our English friends after a minimum ^ ^
Google translate.
Our national debt is the main reason we need to alter the current establishment (both parties) because spending, taxing and printing more money only increases the debt. The way we run our economic system is completely backwards. Government has a horrible track record of how it spends our money. We are better equip at spending our own money then the bureaucrats are. The people should keep the fruits of there labor, not some centralized entity. Historically, the bigger the governments become, the more the people suffer, the more freedoms are stripped away and the wider the gap between the rich and poor becomes.
@Tyrcrash
QuoteOther side, I have a question for the United States, the fact that it is extremely indebted not one of their economic strategy?
Who really knows? But I tend to think it is the result of greed and stupidity, rather than evil genius! But yes, there are a lot of people in the states who think all of this is planed. Black helicopter and prison camps in the near future. :o
Quotebut we need our English friends after a minimum
We are not just your friends, we are your cousins! Is there anyone in Europe who doubts that Americans would bleed for Europe? We even die for people who hate us (Iraq, Afghanistan). And don't give me any crap about oil. None of the marines who died over there did it for a better deal on gas!
It sounds to me (based on what you guys are telling me) that like in the U.S, the problem is not about Race (though some try to make it so) the problems are about culture.
A culture cannot survive the mass influx of different world views. The one will always give way to the other.
@ChrisC
I like your hope and optimism. But I think its time to except that we have jumped from a plain without a parachute. Gravity will pull us down to the rocks below.
Welcome to servitude.
I will always have hope. Honestly i see more and more that the American people are waking up finally and see that this system is not working out. Sure there may be a few bumps in the road along the way but worse case scenario we start over and keep things simple, the way they used to be. There will be pain as first but the wounds can heal. Europe might be inspired to follow that way as well. Not by forced corersion, not by occupying other countries, not by rigging the system but by what inspires us to be free and prosper.
I won't go into political debate, but Tyrcrash, even if you learn in geography that it is their economic strategy to be so much into debt (hahahaha) I just want you to remember that in the USA 45.8 million people need food stamps to survive !!!
And if China didn't buy part of the american debt some time ago they would already be dead by now.
Oh, and Badger, if Iraq and Afghanistan hate the USA is because USA killed them first.
in Iraq, just because of the embargo, more than 500 000 children died. That is not being the nice guy, uh.
Quote from: Seth on April 25, 2012, 10:01:50 PM
I won't go into political debate, but Tyrcrash, even if you learn in geography that it is their economic strategy to be so much into debt (hahahaha) I just want you to remember that in the USA 45.8 million people need food stamps to survive !!!
And if China didn't buy part of the american debt some time ago they would already be dead by now.
Oh, and Badger, if Iraq and Afghanistan hate the USA is because USA killed them first.
in Iraq, just because of the embargo, more than 500 000 children died. That is not being the nice guy, uh.
I think there is some truth in what your saying Seth, but also some exaggeration.
The embargoes do not keep food from the mouths of children, the governments do that. Think of North Korea. while the people starve, the "fearless leader" plays xbox and eats a feast. The people are thin, but he is fat.
I am not the only one saying the embargo killed children, UNICEF said that.
and the real number, by then, was between 500 000 to 1 300 000 children killed because of the embargo.
that is not exageration, that is a fact.
And it is always easier to say that it is because of "the enemy" that people are dying, it allows us to sleep better.
I am not naive anymore. Our nice "democratic" countries, kill people to steal ressources, not to free people.
Yes, it is time to stop the Imperialism non-sense. You get Blow Back every time.
If that is true, than perhaps it is best if we all fall.
But I don't believe you. I think like in progressivism, people try to help and just get it terribly, terribly wrong.
Quote from: ChrisC on April 25, 2012, 11:16:22 PM
Yes, it is time to stop the Imperialism non-sense.
agree !
@Seth: De mes souvenirs ce n'est pas simplement que les US, utilise leurs dettes pour être plus puissant. C'est plutôt qu'il utilise leur attractivité (toujours très forte), le statut de superpuissance globale, et tout ce qui fait que les Etats-Unis sont première puissance mondiale pour obtenir des crédits qu'il pourront rembourser mais seulement dans un certain temps (en gros au vus de leur puissance si ils ne rendent pas l'argent tout de suite, ils ont tellement de garanti de tout de même le rendre, que les banques ne s'affolent pas). Evidemment un tel système ne marche que si il y a de la croissance. (Déjà que j'ai l'impression de pas être clair, je n'ose imaginer ce que ça va donner en anglais). Après, il faut bien évidemment dissocié le gouvernement des US, toutes les multinationales qui s'y trouvent et la population.
Après la sacro-sainte dette qui semble être l'instrument de l'apocalypse qui va tous nous anéantir et nous faire revenir à l'age de pierre, l'islamisme en plus (ironie, je précise), peut être faudrait t'il la relativiser. Deux pays ont déjà annulé la leur, l'Argentine et l'Islande. Certes ces pays ne sont ni les US, ni la France. Mais à chaque fois cela a plutôt été un succès (surtout pour l'Argentine, qui est tout de même 2eme puissance de l'Amérique du Sud et acteur incontournable du Mercosur). Et à chaque fois, personne ne les a rayé de la carte. Ce sont les Etats qui ont permis aux banques d'avoir autant de puissance et de pouvoir brader leur dettes et de permettre à certains de s'enrichir avec, il ne tient qu'aux Etats de stopper cet état de fait.
@ Seth: From my memory it's not just the U.S., using their debts to be more powerful. Rather, it uses their attractiveness (still strong), the global superpower status, and everything that the U.S. is the first world power to get loans that will pay off but only in a certain time (roughly seen in their power if they do not make money right away, so they secured all the same make, that banks do not panic). Obviously such a system only works if there is growth. Then you have obviously disassociated the government of U.S., all multinational companies located there and the population.
After the sacred debt which seems to be the instrument of the Apocalypse that will destroy us all and bring us back to the Stone Age, Islamism and more (ironically, I say), you may need it relativize. Both countries have already canceled theirs, Argentina and Iceland. Although these countries are neither the U.S. nor France. But each time it was more successful (especially Argentina, which is still the 2nd power of South America and Mercosur player). And each time, nobody has wiped out. These are states that have allowed banks to have more power and can sell off their debts and allow the funds to enrich themselves with, it is up to States to stop this situation. (here, states is not US, but country around the world, I specify that because i believe one on my sentence are not understand good -it's not your fault, obviously, but because I'm not good in English :) )
Argentina has large oil, uranium and gas reserves due to thier natural resources. We don't.
Iceland are not out of crisis, I need to remember you :) even with their high geothemic ressource and aluminium. We don't.
As for the growth you are talking about, you must know that, General Motors for example, to get their growth back, divided the salary of their working people by 2 !!!
Oh and in case you don't know it, the US debt is not like the french debt : we count the social security, medical security, etc... they don't !!!
the US debt "does not count off-budget obligations such as required spending for Social Security and Medicare, whose programs represent a balloon payment for the Government as more Americans retire and collect benefits".
Kotlikoff, Astrue or Moylan say the true debt is between 60 trilions to 200 trillions... but if you think they can pay off that much money...
well I am not part of the optimistic people ;)
and again, if the USA are such powerful, how can you explain that almost 46 millions people need food stamps to survive ?!
Je n'ai pas dit que le système économique américain était le meilleur, évidemment qu'il ont un paquet de problème, le nombre croissant de personne sous le seuil de pauvreté n'est qu'une de leur nombreuse contradiction, il est fort probable qu'il arrive bientôt à implosion. Ce que je voulais dire c'est que les US ont quelque part voulu leur dettes, tandis que nous dès le départ on en voulait pas, et pour autant on a rien fait pour s'en débarrasser (même si le fait qu'un pays, de part sa nature, soit endettés c'est parfaitement normale)
Après nous avons peut être pas beaucoup de ressources naturels mais pour autant on reste 5eme puissance mondiale. Les pays basant uniquement leur économie sur des ressources naturels sont fragile: au moindre aléas, la demande diminue et c'est toute leur économie qui prend, la notre est un poil plus flexible (on a quelque secteur d'excellence: aéronautique, et plus controversé, le nucléaire) et bien évidement on a beaucoup de tertiaire. Même si l'Islande n'est pas sorti de la crise, en disant qu'elle ne paierait pas la dette, elle c'est certes aliéné sur le plan international (qui voudrait prêter à un tel pays) mais elle a rendue le problème uniquement islandais, et donc bien plus facile à régler. Alors évidement ça laisse penser que le seul moyen de s'en sortir serait de faire du protectionnisme à fond et de se replier sur soi même. C'est plus simple mais c'est pas une solution à long termes pour tout les pays.
Mais je reste persuadé que le problème principale de tout cela c'est le monde de la finance (pas du point de vue communiste, hein, l'ensemble de ces acteurs en générale), c'est à cause d'eux si aujourd'hui il y a bien plus d'argent structurale (de l'argent virtuel) que de fiduciaire (véritable argent). Il jouent avec ce qu'on a pas et font croire que tout est à portée, immédiatement. Ce qui n'est pas le cas.
I did not say that the American economic system was the best, obviously he has a bunch of problems, the growing number of people under the poverty line is only one of their numerous contradictions, it is likely he soon comes to implosion. What I meant was that the U.S. wanted somewhere their debts, while we at the outset we would not, and so far it has done nothing to get rid of it (although the fact that a country , by its nature, be indebted it is perfectly normal)
After we can not be many natural resources but so far it remains 5th world power. Countries based solely on their economies are fragile natural resources: the lesser contingencies, demand falls and the whole economy that is, ours is a bit more flexible (it was a sector of excellence: aerospace, and more controversial, nuclear) and of course we have many tertiary. While Iceland is not out of the crisis, saying it would not pay the debt, it is certainly alienated internationally (which would lead to such a country) but it has made the problem Icelandic only, and therefore much easier to solve. So obviously it suggests that the only way to get out of protectionism would be thoroughly and withdraw into yourself. This is simpler but it's not a long term solution for all countries.
But I remain convinced that the main problem of all this is the world of finance (not the communist viewpoint, eh, all these actors in general) is because of them if. Today there are many more structural money (virtual money) as trustee (real money). He played with what we have and do not believe that everything is within reach immediately. This is not the case.
on est d'accord sur les causes. c'est toujours ca de pris ;)
Allez on va finir ce bref échange par un léger compliment: ça m'a fait plaisir de parler avec l'un (le?) plus grand artiste français de Terragen :)
Quote from: Tyrcrash on April 26, 2012, 02:16:59 PM
Allez on va finir ce bref échange par un léger compliment: ça m'a fait plaisir de parler avec l'un (le?) plus grand artiste français de Terragen :)
You are a great TG artist Seth, its just a fact.
Thanks guys, believe it or not, I now know a lot more about France then I did. What surprises me the most is how similar everything is! Politics and opinion (among regular people).
I did not expect that, probably just miss conceptions on my part, since I have never visited.
@Tyrcrash
you sound rather optimistic too. To tell the truth in my heart I have hope things will work out like you and ChrisC, I just don't find it likely in France or the US. Even China cannot sustain its model for to long.
But I would be very, very happy to be wrong (About US and France).
Quote from: Seth on April 26, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
and again, if the USA are such powerful, how can you explain that almost 46 millions people need food stamps to survive ?!
This is the best answer for that question. This man predicted the Housing Bubble crash and clearly points out that our problems go back for a long time. The video is long but quite and eye opener.
http://youtu.be/zdB9I79BQRI
@TheBadger: Perhaps it's because I'm 18 years old, in 20 year I probably sing a different tune :-\
Well, if it is of any consolation i am 35. I think it all boils down to one's perception and attitude of the world. I am a realist as well but not the doom and gloom type. History has it's ups and downs like a fractal sine wave. ;D
Yes, I think is true, but people prefer to think, that despite the brevity of their lives, they have the chance to live at a turning point in the history of humanity while this might be simply a period of the curve...
With the victory of François Hollande will France break the European Austerity pact it signed with Germany?
Greece looks like it's going to exit the Euro zone pretty soon
Quote from: penang on May 07, 2012, 01:23:05 AM
With the victory of François Hollande will France break the European Austerity pact it signed with Germany?
Greece looks like it's going to exit the Euro zone pretty soon
Hollande is a Socialist so austerity measures do not sit well with Socialists.
That seems like a good idea. Having competing currencies is more safe anyways. The European Union experiment does not appear to be working out to well.
The path taken by USA is to spend, spend, spend, while Europe is trying to save, save and find even more ways to save.
The spend-spend-spend path is easy, with a known consequence - deficit spending and trillions of national debt
On the other hand, save-save-save will be painful, especially with populations that are so used to getting free money from the government without having to work (aka welfare) but countries that tried it turned their economy around (Eg. Germany)
If France is going to break the austerity pact, its future gonna looks gloomy.
Quote from: penang on May 07, 2012, 02:48:44 AM
The path taken by USA is to spend, spend, spend, while Europe is trying to save, save and find even more ways to save.
The spend-spend-spend path is easy, with a known consequence - deficit spending and trillions of national debt
On the other hand, save-save-save will be painful, especially with populations that are so used to getting free money from the government without having to work (aka welfare) but countries that tried it turned their economy around (Eg. Germany)
If France is going to break the austerity pact, its future gonna looks gloomy.
It certainly is a mixed number of events and two sides for both the US and Europe. The current establishment in the US is the mass spending as this goes for both parties, they just spend in different areas. Both parties are wrong on foreign policy as well. However, there is a rise with Independents and Libertarians in particular who offer an alternative to spending the US into serfdom.
I certainly agree that if France keeps on there current path, the money will eventually run out and who is going to bail them out? Hopefully no one. It sounds cruel but everyone should ask the question, why should irresponsible behavior be rewarded? The bank bailouts and the auto bailouts were huge mistakes and so was all of the stimulus packages.
Who said there is nothing to read on NYTimes opinions? (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/07/opinion/krugman-those-revolting-europeans.html?_r=1&hp) ;)
Krugman is the last Economist i want to hear an opinion from. :P
No kidding? :P
http://www.dailypaul.com/230133/telegraphwhy-the-new-york-times-s-paul-krugman-is-clueless-about-the-european-economic-crisis
Peter Schiff on Paul Krugman, Europe and Austerity.
http://youtu.be/ME_w2n2-9Y0
lol. NYT, I thought they went out of business?
Quote from: TheBadger on May 08, 2012, 12:36:28 AM
lol. NYT, I thought they went out of business?
If only.
Now that elections in France and Greece is over, let's focus on the US of A
It's very, and I emphasize, VERY unfortunate that the GOP rank and file decide that Ron Paul will not be on the ballot come this Nov.
The guy that they chose? He is no better than Obama, and is equally clueless on the working of economy, deficit, and national debt
penang, from your previous posts on this forum, I know a bit of what kind of person you are.
So, just for you to know, the elections are not over in France.
The next round is in June for the Assemblee Nationale.
And if you want to talk about USA and/or Obama and/or Ron Paul, feel free to open another thread but please.
Thank you.
Tiens Seth, à propos du vote FN, un article (http://www.arretsurimages.net/contenu.php?id=4878) qui reflète assez bien ce que je pense de la question. Ça devrait te plaire. :D
Elle laisse de coté (volontairement je pense) le vote FN "trollesque" ouvrier (vote de colère à base de "tous pourri") qu'on a pu voir au premier tour dans certaines des grandes villes du nord et/ou des bassins miniers... Vote FN ouvrier de premier tour qui d'ailleurs s'est massivement reporté sur le PS au second tour (voir les différentes cartes de résultats).
Je ne pense pas que cet article nous mette d'accord (loin de là), mais je le trouve relativement intéressant. ;)
Sinon le cas du Gard, de mon point de vue, pose question : On a là une large majorité de votes FN avec des électeurs "senior" (issu de l'Algérie Française pour une bonne part, ou de Tunisie comme mes grands parents)... Que va devenir ce type de vote FN dans les dix ans à venir ? Disparaître avec ses électeurs (on aurait alors un infléchissement notable du FN dans cette région), ou bien se transmettre (en quelque sorte) d'une génération à la suivante ? Qu'en penses-tu ?
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2012, 08:09:58 AM
penang, from your previous posts on this forum, I know a bit of what kind of person you are.
So, just for you to know, the elections are not over in France.
The next round is in June for the Assemblee Nationale.
And if you want to talk about USA and/or Obama and/or Ron Paul, feel free to open another thread but please.
Thank you.
We shall keep that in mind Seth. :) My own passions get the best of me at times.
Europe runs away from austerity and freedom
http://youtu.be/pqNhjwDLD_I
Quote from: ChrisC on May 09, 2012, 01:54:04 AMEurope runs away from austerity and freedom
http://youtu.be/pqNhjwDLD_I
Hopefully not the entire Europe, but I digress ...