Planetside Software Forums

General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: Dune on June 05, 2012, 02:56:08 AM

Title: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 05, 2012, 02:56:08 AM
It isn't as ominous as the title suggests; just an attempt to replicate the painting that was put on the forum some time ago. A nice, but hard challenge, painting it would be easier (for me at least). I'm nowhere near, but I learned a lot.
I think I would need to make the terrain in PS and WM instead of relying on random PF's....
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 05, 2012, 06:07:12 AM
Great effort Ulco! I'm really glad someone with a good grasp of TG2 is trying this.
I love Luminism, so I hope you won't mind me sharing some ideas with you. You can take or leave them as you see fit. If you all ready haven't thought of it.

I thought about this for a long time but always ran into a lack of technical knowledge at on point or another so I did not do it my self, but perhaps you will pull it off.

The first thing I thought to do was, as you say, random fractals. That was pointless I found. But you are getting much better results than I did so far, so who knows.
Then I thought  a satellite resource for an image map to get the first part of the image. The back ground is not real, so I think that random fractals would be fine.
Anyway, what would be the best file type for the image map of that location? DEM, or something? This is one of the technical problems I ran into. There are no tuts I know of on using satellite data as image maps. BUT THERE SHOULD BE!!! If anyone cares.

So assuming you get a landscape your really happy with, that reflects luminist scale. Then Lighting is the most important part.
I was thinking you could use a large flat rectangle, make it reflective, and use that as a bounce light. That should help get light where you need it. Also Lumnisits treated landscapes like portraits, so it would be appropriate to bounce light.

If you could use some of those techniques people posted, where the land produces light, that would help to. The trick would be to get everything in play at once, while keeping wanted shadows just above black.
There was also a post by mood flow where he used an image of clouds to light the shot. I couldn't make sense of that one, but maybe you can. At any rate, the landscape is secondary to the light. The light is everything.

Good luck man!

*Oh yeah, I also thought it could be smart to do three renders. One to light the background, one to light the mid, and one to light the foreground, then photoshop them. But you could also try a merge images in photomatix; no idea if that would work though.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 05, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
Found it i think. Maybe this will help. The place in the painting is the Yosemite Valley.

http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/catalog/query/(xcm=r3standardpitrex_prd&layout=6_1_61_48&uiarea=2&ctype=areaDetails&carea=%24ROOT)/.do?lastVisited=areaDetails&query=yosemite+valley
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 05, 2012, 09:46:17 AM
Thanks Badger. I have no intention however to buy a map, I'll try finding a small DEM or height map for free, or else paint something. It's not a big deal, this render, just fun. Good of you to remind me about the lighting issues. I knew of them, but didn't use them here. I did use a final surface shader blended by a circle with some luminance, but I don't know if that works ok. It might also be faked by using a color adjust (raise gamma) for a certain area.

I found another interesting site: http://www.shadedrelief.com/ (http://www.shadedrelief.com/)

I'm looking here: http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm (http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm) but how I can access some heightmap eludes me...
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: cyphyr on June 05, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
Impressive, and a (more than) good start. There is indeed a lot we can learn from the old masters. Definately worth emulating.
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: yossam on June 05, 2012, 03:34:10 PM
Fantastic start.....can't wait for the next version.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 06, 2012, 02:11:22 AM
I found a jpg of a valley in Yosemite, and a large ter of Yosemite (I already had it  ??? ), but I wouldn't know where this exact spot is. So I'm gonna concentrate on the lighting, and not the exact features of the land.....
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Kadri on June 06, 2012, 09:11:32 AM

Very nice experiment Ulco :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 06, 2012, 11:36:56 AM
It's gonna be awesome (he said, prudently).
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: inkydigit on June 06, 2012, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: Dune on June 06, 2012, 11:36:56 AM
It's gonna be awesome (he said, prudently).
you know it!
I can not wait...this looks AWESOME already!
:)
pity we don't have gps coords from the original!
:))
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: masonspappy on June 06, 2012, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: Dune on June 06, 2012, 11:36:56 AM
It's gonna be awesome ....

I think you're right. Fine work!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Oshyan on June 07, 2012, 12:15:37 AM
A surprisingly good start on this! It seems like increasing enviro light Strength on Surfaces might be a good addition...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 07, 2012, 03:28:52 AM
Hey guys,
Have an idea/request because of this thread. Hope staff could do this.

So imagine in any TG2 scene a place that is too dark because of cloud cover in that area. Now imagine a bounding box/circle in a place on the terrain where you really want light.

Imagine a string (for visualization) going from the center of the bounding box directly to the center of the light source.
Now imagine that you are able to punch a hole through the clouds, that is the size of your bounding box, or a multiple of it, as many times as you like. And in as many places as you like.

Also the bounding box/circle is adjustable and movable. And maybe the bounding box can be any 2d shape you like.

Sounds great, yes?

How hard would something like that be to program?
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 07, 2012, 03:48:00 AM
Quote(he said, prudently)
I meant 'modestly' of course.
You were just ahead of me, Badger. What I sometimes do is take the camera down to where the light should be, look up to the sun, and move or inversely blend the clouds by a simple shape. But it's a lot of work. I believe I once tried a semi transparent default shader on a plane to make a 'shadow' map.
There should be a way to use a PF mask (hit a few times or draw a painted shader), which can be adjustable on ground level, which then should be translated up in the same angel as where the sun is. It would enlarge when going up, but could on cloud level be used to inversely blend them away. The black/white distribution of the PF should of course remain the same when going higher, so a transform shader is in place.
Anyway; new iteration based on the Yosemite jpg I found.

Another thing that would be very handy is a blur node, with adjustable amount of blur, with a blend input of course. When you use a smooth function the Y is mainly going down, so that doesn't work in case of falls from steep walls, like here. These were simply painted in (painted shader) on the terrain.
Credits to Walli for his wild grass version 5, very obvious in front.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: cyphyr on June 07, 2012, 03:49:06 AM
You can place a camera projecting a "hole blob" image through the cloud. Place a camera at the point you want illuminated and point it at the sun. Add an image map shader and select camera projection (using your newly created camera) and use this as a blend shader for your cloud fractal  and "viola", a hole in your cloud layer. Increase the cameras FOV to make the hole bigger. Mostly works but it's difficult to avoid the "hole punch" look.
Cheers
Richard

Hmm, scratch this, not working as expected at all ...
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 07, 2012, 03:53:13 AM
Yes, of course, I even used that method once, but totally forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me/us.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 07, 2012, 04:08:41 AM
Good ideas, but all very time consuming. I'll use them though, until planetside gives us a proper tool! Hope it will be in the next update. I really need it to make the images I want to make.

Ulco,
Thats looking great! Study more images from the luminists, really push it! Do something amazing with this, dont stop.

Take a look at the "hudson river school", they did some amazing work.

http://artsnap.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Hudson-River-School_Yosemite.jpg
http://www.abacus-gallery.com/shopinfo/uploads/1278918519_large-image_hudson_river_school_albert_bierstadt_rocky_mountains_landers_peak_1863_007_oil_painting_large.jpg
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 07, 2012, 04:18:51 AM
There is a certain turning point between art and 'kitch', and one has to take care not to cross that line. But I really like some of these paintings, indeed. http://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&rls=nl&q=Bierstadt&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=nl&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=TWPQT73VDIHH0QWR-9HJCw&biw=1920&bih=1103&sei=T2PQT7yaIYab1AWhhNHJCw (http://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&rls=nl&q=Bierstadt&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=nl&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=TWPQT73VDIHH0QWR-9HJCw&biw=1920&bih=1103&sei=T2PQT7yaIYab1AWhhNHJCw)

I painted in that style (not quite) quite a lot...
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 07, 2012, 04:23:06 AM
Quote from: Dune on June 07, 2012, 04:18:51 AM
There is a certain turning point between art and 'kitch', and one has to take care not to cross that line.

Just tell the truth. Then you will never cross that line unwillingly.

*Thats nice Ulco. It strikes me as something between luminism and impressionism

I do like looking at impressionism! But I find there is nothing in it to believe. One can only swoon. Its like a crush on a girl you never talk to
By the way, I like that painting you made.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: j meyer on June 07, 2012, 10:31:17 AM
Nice painting!
And a promising Bierstadt attempt,too.Clouds will be very hard to get right,I guess.
Keep at it,J.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Kadri on June 07, 2012, 10:37:44 PM

Very nice painting Ulco and the other image is very nice too!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 08, 2012, 02:06:15 AM
I would like to have this enlarged, but before I do, is there anything you guys see missing? Some small extra clouds at lower level perhaps, skimming the rocks at right for instance, or a castle in the inlet at the right, or a flock of gulls? I tend to put too much in my work according to critics (be it paintings or 3D), so I have to be careful though.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 08, 2012, 05:21:43 AM
Mist. Mist on the shore to the right. And mist on the water, very decisively placed.

The clouds on the upper left corner need some more definition... Only light will do that.
And I would obscure the peek of the background mountain just a little with its own clouds (more).

The center area, and the half dome are the stars. The Light there is beautiful!
But it feels like everything else is a little disconnected from there.
Maybe just a case for tone mapping?
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 08, 2012, 06:46:19 AM
You might be right, Badger. Thanks. A little low mist creeping up to the shore or something. This is the latest version in low Q. Without water, but with the mask where I want small waves, like local disturbance by brewing storm on an otherwise calm lake.
I have added some small clouds at 400m, clinging to the vertical hills. I don't know about the peak. I would like it to be visible, but perhaps a little ring around it....
I also added another cloud fractal to get more definition in the main low cloud, and moved the high cloud a little to the left to get a bit more blue.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: mhaze on June 08, 2012, 08:00:32 AM
This is a tremendous image.  I find the white snow clad peak in the background comes forward too much.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 08, 2012, 11:10:58 AM
It softened up a bit. In that respect I like the last one better.
lol! Now this is where you'll go mad. Got a great image, but you'll want to tweak until your eyes bleed.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: j meyer on June 08, 2012, 11:38:14 AM
As for the hole in the clouds you (or anyone else) could try making a localized
cloud shape of your choice,a ridged tower like blob for instance,and then move
it via transform shader to where you want it and subtract it from your main
cloud,that should come close to what was suggested earlier in this thread.

And yes,a blur node would be a great addition.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: inkydigit on June 08, 2012, 11:39:49 AM
these are astonishingly inspirational Ulco...
I love where these are going....
it appears that Bierstadt may have taken some artistic license in the 'Among the Sierra Nevada Mountains' painting....The viewpoint is an imaginary location....
the original is huge I believe 10 foot across!
here is a nice large sized jpeg:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Albert_Bierstadt%2C_Among_the_Sierra_Nevada_Mountains.jpg
:)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 09, 2012, 03:00:15 AM
Thanks for your input guys. A lot of these ''romantic' artists have put stuff together just to make it look good, be it medieval cityscapes or landscapes. And why not? I might get into that Bierstadt terrain again, get those ragged peaks in (not too hard). But I'll remain with this one for now. And...
you're absolutely right on this, Badger; I am refining until I get mad. There are so many possibilities, and I just can't choose. I want it all. And...
Jochem, your method I indeed just used, although not localized but hitting random until it looked right. Localize is a good idea!

Latest iteration before final, I think, where I have to cover some bare ground in front, and maybe put some low lake mist near the further coast to obscure the sharp line. A bit more turbulence in the water than this as well.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: mhaze on June 09, 2012, 06:05:14 AM
Now that is just simply amazing!  I love the light on the ridges of the background mountain and the deep stillness of the water. Wow!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: mhaze on June 09, 2012, 08:03:43 AM
As for the hole in the clouds you (or anyone else) could try making a localized
cloud shape of your choice,a ridged tower like blob for instance,and then move
it via transform shader to where you want it and subtract it from your main
cloud,that should come close to what was suggested earlier in this thread.

Just tried this cannot make it work at all.  Has anyone actually succeeded in making this work?
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: squirreltape on June 09, 2012, 08:32:55 AM
Wow... fantastic project and very nicely executed indeed :)

There would more than likely be a possible issue with using a real DTM to copy a painting, rather than a photo ... landscape artists tend to change real scenes (to varying degrees) to improve their composition on the canvas rather than faithfully record exact details.  It would certainly get close but I'd wager that the real view would differ from the painting (you may find the landscape arranged differently with exaggerations etc and sometimes even whole mountains that weren't there)... but it would depend on how faithful you wanted to be I suppose.

Brilliant experiment so far though

Best wishes, Mark
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 09, 2012, 08:42:09 AM
I just tried it; works fine. Here's a quicky.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: mhaze on June 09, 2012, 11:09:39 AM
Yes I got that working - I was trying to use a localized cloud subtracted from the main cloud layer but could not get it to work.  Strange thing was I could see in the preview window that I had a hole in the cloud but it just didn't show up in the render preview!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 10, 2012, 04:19:48 AM
Another version. Not quite finished, raw from TG.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: squirreltape on June 10, 2012, 07:00:05 AM
Gorgeous :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: badvok on June 10, 2012, 08:46:35 AM
Wow. Just wow :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Kadri on June 10, 2012, 11:44:24 AM

Great images Ulco  :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Jo Kariboo on June 11, 2012, 09:19:15 AM
The last one is very nice!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: otakar on June 14, 2012, 03:01:45 PM
Ok, the foreground and that lit up wall with the waterfalls as well as the lake - just first class. Unbelievable stuff.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: choronr on June 14, 2012, 05:17:16 PM
Inspiring piece of work!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: mesocyclone on June 15, 2012, 03:19:04 PM
Wow!! Beautiful!
I have posted that image on the forum some time ago: http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=14615.0
And didn't wonder that it would inspire such beautiful artwork...
Amazing! :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 16, 2012, 03:44:43 AM
Yeah, thanks for that, mesocyclone. That did spark it off. 
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: ra on June 16, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
Very impressive work. The last one is awesome. Though I would prefer an untouched landscape without a hut  ::)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 18, 2012, 09:44:00 AM
I've seen some of his paintings in the MH The Young Museum (it was I believe) in San Francisco, a couple of weeks ago. Also in London and Paris they have some if I recall correctly. Beautiful paintings mostly.

I think you reproduced the atmosphere and feel pretty well here.
I'm not so sure about the curvature and thickness of the waterfalls though. They are bit too curved and quite thin, I *think*.
For a nice isolated area of direct lighting I sometimes cut a hole in the cloud-layer with a distance shader and move that around until I get the directly exposed area in the right position. Quite cool to do, because it offers a lot of space to play with shadows and light. Obviously you knew this already and perhaps you did that here :)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on June 21, 2012, 06:04:05 PM
Taking a rest from this one, Ulco?
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 22, 2012, 10:11:51 AM
Well, I consider it finished, Badger. The falls were just an intermezzo, Martin. Not very precisely done. Here's a final at 'desktop size'. I had it rendered at 7000px wide, which is quite awesome, although I noticed that the alpine fractal (and smoothing effect for the snow) produced ugly large ridges. 
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Kadri on June 22, 2012, 10:17:04 AM
It looks great!
I think the problems aren't much important or no problems at all. It does give a painterly look .
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 22, 2012, 10:24:23 AM
Thanks, Kadri. I'm fuzzy (fussy)  ;)
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: Dune on June 30, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
I just got a large (6000px wide) still returned form MasterMindProductions (great job, Ty!), and it's awesome. Might even consider marketing it as a print  ::) So I'll just post 2 quick screendumps from the plain render... and close this off.
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: TheBadger on July 01, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
Wow! Theres a lot more detail in there now that its big!
Title: Re: Bierstadt experiment
Post by: digitalis99 on July 02, 2012, 03:16:54 AM
Quote from: Dune on June 30, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
I just got a large (6000px wide) still returned form MasterMindProductions (great job, Ty!), and it's awesome. Might even consider marketing it as a print  ::) So I'll just post 2 quick screendumps from the plain render... and close this off.

No problem Ulco!  Glad to see it's working out for you.  Keep up the awesome scenes.