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General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: TheBadger on May 01, 2013, 05:10:48 am

Title: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 01, 2013, 05:10:48 am
So I was watching this show called "Vice" on HBO. its a pretty good news magazine... Definitely not for young kids though.

Anyway, for the first time I heard about the street battles between National socialists, communists, anarchists and the state that are going on daily in Greece. I really had no idea what was going on there before this program. I had thought all the riots and protests were just spontaneous anger, or regular socialists.

But there are full on communists and fascists fighting for control. The fascists have even gotten 10% of the parliament!
I really had no idea things were this bad in Europe.

I am very confused by the so called anarchists though. So they are "anarchists", but they want socialism? Do Europeans not know what anarchy is? How can you be an anarchists and want benefits from the government?

It is really a full on mess there! Much worse than I knew about... Thanks to the main stream media!

I also learned from that same episode of Vice, that spain is nearly as bad. And to a lessor extent France and Britten.
What the HELL! 2 world wars were not enough for you people that you are bringing back National socialism and communism?
And people say Americans are uneducated and stupid. That we don't know are own history. Ha! Well this time we surrender. You win!

If thats really what Europeans want, its their prerogative, I guess.
The good news is that your all already disarmed and ordered into a kind of federation. So whichever you go with, communism or fascism, it wont be hard for your new masters to "reeducate" the entire continent. That should save some money and trouble.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 01, 2013, 10:47:16 am
I didn't watched it but from what people told me, what they said about France was absolutely untrue.
Even far-left wing people told me they said stupid things about the Front National we have in France.
I'll have to watch it by myself to have a better idea on that subject.

That said... you know that for a lot of europeans (not all but a lot), we see US government as fascist and imperialist (and it is imperialist indeed) :)
And maybe you should learn a bit more about anarchist-communism before saying that anarchy and communism are so different.
The thing is that "fascists" in Greece, for example, are doing what the government is not : taking care of poors, bringing security back in some unprotected areas, etc...
I am not saying that it is the solution, I am saying people want them because they do what they say. Which is the opposite of any given democratic government in Europe.

And I do believe a lot of people would prefer be lead by fascists from their own country than by any given american imperialism.

So before you state that we are winning the battle of stupidity and uneducation, I would suggest you to look at your own country ;)
USA go to war against a lot of countries, making millions of dead people (yes, millions), even in Afghanistan, since USA went in the country, heroin market exploded to 40 times what it was before.
Should I mention the fact that your gvt brought debt crisis all over the world, and now is giving order to Europe on how they should rule their countries and economy.
Should I mention that you elected Geordes W Bush twice ?
Or that every week you have a gun or knife killer rampaging randomly in schools or streets ?

C'mon...

And to be really honest, I spit on any government we have here in Europe, as I spit on yours.

Cheers.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 01, 2013, 11:35:01 am
Can anyone here explain to me what they mean with "fascist/fascism" or what it means to them?
I see that coming up in so many different discussions, but despite google/wikipedia I have no idea whatever it really means.

Michael, you're being a bit too black&white about the link between anarchy and communism. I see where you're coming from, but I'll try to explain to you what's happening in Europe in my eyes:

If we consider two well known phenomena as pure opposite (just for the sake of easy understanding) and we consider communism and imperialism/corporate governments as these opposites then what we see in Europe is that a quite balanced centred governing of Europe for many years as a whole has quickly changed into corporate governing.
This has, as a matter of fact, always been this way, but it was too obscured for many people to see.
Now it has become blatantly obvious that European governments are becoming corporate governments quickly.
The influence of non-mainstream media raises awareness and countries which suffer the most respond the first, logically. So Greece and Spain.
More than ever people find themselves unheard and unprotected by their government, because their governments isn't there for the people anymore, but rather for corporate interests.

The response to that is a rather communist like radicalism with the goal to bring back balance.
These people don't want socialism in its purist form, they want less corporate influence.
Since democracy is failing and governments do not listen at all people start riots and anarchy.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 01, 2013, 11:55:39 am
The global financial crisis exposed "democracy" as a corrupt instrument made to make ordinary people believe they have a say in what's happening and what not.
It turned out that all these years politicians were shoulder-deep in corporate asses and that democracy is completely failing (on a global scale).
In a European country your democratic vote influences local processes, but as the world globalises quickly your vote is totally worthless to the things that really matter, which are: Global finances, energy, water, oil, gas and other natural resources like metals etc..

Never have so many alternative media exposed corrupt political systems and even mainstream media seem to have increased their guts by a mere couple of %
It's just that tad enough to make people realise something is wrong and it makes them curious!
Hell, even at work I have managed to get the most rusty people (mostly older ones) believe that the world isn't what it appears to be.
Now with that blur removed from their eyes they are able to see through the shallow stories and lies which are meant to cover true government intentions.
The best example at the moment is that people don't believe it anymore when a politician says that tax money is needed to save a bank from bankruptcy.
It's unimaginably idiotic and people start to see :) They are not working for us anymore, but for their own career in service of (big) corporations.
This completely explains the increase of short-sight type of political thinking in the past 20 years.

This luckily (in my opinion) leads to a spiral in disbelieve and distrust.
I hope that one day this whole corrupt system fails completely and if it is needed through anarchy so must be it.
I don't blame these people from Greece who stand up against this system. They had it coming.
It's a natural process. An end will come to this, things will get better and then it starts all over again etc. etc.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: cyphyr on May 01, 2013, 12:50:29 pm
I completely agree with you Martin. The corruption in our governments is becoming more and more transparent each day and so obviously people are getting angry. Countries are also becoming more and more polarised and simple solutions being parroted in sound bites to incredibly complex problems. The old adage of "power corrupts " is being played out before us and since we are fundamentally powerless to effect it there is more anger generated.
I don't know what the solution may be. It's certainly not anything that is available now. Some form or anarcho communist (as in we're all in a commune of humanity together) society may be a way forward but there will be many tears before that.
Richard
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 01, 2013, 01:21:40 pm
Fascism was only used for the Mussolini government between 1922 and 1945.
Today, people use it for a lot of kind of government.

So a simple definition would be that fascism wants the nation to be composed by a unique community behind one strong man. Where individuals should "bow" in front of the country, in front of its leader, in front of the common good. In fascism, you don't follow the Human Rights. Fascism needs a strong government, with strong police and security. The jobs are vertically organized, in corporations. Fascism is suspicious about foreigners and use a reactionary politic to avoid libertarism.
Usually fascism says that it is the spirit of the people so the people should not be above the state
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 01, 2013, 08:32:32 pm
Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2013, 10:47:16 amThat said... you know that for a lot of europeans (not all but a lot), we see US government as fascist and imperialist (and it is imperialist indeed) :)


Really? How so?

I have seen an alarming YouTube video that "exposes" the extremely slanted news that Europeans get about America. It talks about how the media is pretty exclusively controlled by far left-wingers. It talks about how we in the USA have a choice to see far left or far right news or anywhere in between but in much of Europe the news is very slanted and there is no balance or choice that is within easy access (sounds a bit like North Korea in this regard). This video said that it is especially bad in Scandinavia (in general) and Norway (in particular). We in the USA do see some of what good the USA is doing in Afghanistan and how those who don't want their lives to be controlled by the Taliban and Mujahidin are glad we are there. These are the peace loving people who have businesses and don't run around with AK-47's. Perhaps the French people don't even know what the Taliban is or your news media leads you to believe that they are an innocent bunch of freedom fighters that only resent American presence. I do think we know better than that, Seth. If your government and/or news media (perhaps that it controls) has pulled the wool over your eyes then the situation may be worse over there than I was aware of (in Europe I mean, not Afghanistan).

On the other hand, I do think that George W made a grave mistake by taking out Saddam. He was the only force that kept Iran in check. Now with Iraq out of the way, Iran sees they have bigger fish to fry. I have been very impressed by watching a series on YouTube put out by some students in Azerbaijan called the CaspianReport. They pretty much seem to see things as I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Azy6cjg5eM
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 02, 2013, 01:20:46 am
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 01, 2013, 11:55:39 amThe global financial crisis exposed "democracy" as a corrupt instrument made to make ordinary people believe they have a say in what's happening...


Quote from: cyphyr on May 01, 2013, 12:50:29 pmI don't know what the solution may be. It's certainly not anything that is available now. Some form or anarcho communist (as in we're all in a commune of humanity together) ...


I can't believe you guys. Its not democracy that is the problem. People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist. True anarchy would cause far more waste than you have ever experienced in your life. The problem is human nature. People in government abuse the system for personal gain no matter what form of government you have. Stalin was an absolute dictator in a country that was supposedly against such things. People do all sorts of things in the name of something else and there are enough naive people around to swallow it. Sounds like you guys have a case of "the grass is greener". I know that this sounds bad, but we all need to get more involved in government. The problem really is that there are so many of us, that none of us get exactly what we want and we are pushing in different directions.

As for the banking colapse that happened about 2008, in the USA it wasn't mainly caused by greedy bankers though they were not doing their job to make sure that their borrowers were going to be able to pay back their loans. The colapse was ultimately caused by do-gooders trying to help irresponsible people and people without means to help them buy a house that they could not pay for. It doesn't matter how good the banks are or how much integrity the government has, when people default on their loans the banks can't recover the money. Its not a conspiracy. Its the foolishness of our general public that is at fault.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: cyphyr on May 02, 2013, 03:56:10 am
Trouble is few people understand what anarchism really is.
It's not chaos, it's not a free for all and it's not easy.
It's about self responsibility but realising that the "self" that your responsible to is part of a greater whole. Sometimes you will have to do things that are not exactly what you would want to do but they are done out of a sense of belonging to a larger community (that's the communist bit I was speaking of). It's something like how a festival is run, nobody wants to clean the shit pit but it has to be done. The guy who volunteers for it will get free beer and thanks! The problem is and always has been one of scale. This works on a small tribal, village even town scale but scale it up to entire cities, countries and beyond and it falls apart. We don't feel a part of larger structures in the same way we do of smaller ones.
Check out Marinaleda  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinaleda,_Spain)in Spain. It's been run as a communist society for some thirty years and VERY effectively too. But as I say above it's small scale, only a couple of thousand people.

Load of unrealistic old hippy shit you'll may say and you are probably right. Culturally we are not evolved enough to handle it yet, we may never be.


Quote from: PabloMackIts not democracy that is the problem. People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist.

Vietnam is NOT a communist country, its a "Marxist-Leninist single-party state", there is a huge difference.
There are no communist countries in the world, briefly happened in Russia but I think it lasted a matter of weeks. Cuba is about as close as it has ever come and that's pretty wide of the mark. Do you actually think that people in so called democratic countries have any more say in what happens in their country than so called communist ones? The old joke is unfortunately true, "it don't matter who you vote for the government still get in".

Quote from: PabloMack... The collapse was ultimately caused by do-gooders ...

You're avin' a laff! lol ;D
No, it was caused by corporate thieves fixing interest rates. You thought LIBOR was bad (and it was) check out what's breaking. The ISDAfix (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425) makes it pale into insignificance. If these two rip-off's hadn't happened we would not be in the situation we are in now. Simples. :)
Apparently the world is in debt to the tune of Fifty Trillion (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/) and rising. Who to?


Quote from: PabloMack...This video said that it is especially bad in Scandinavia (in general) and Norway (in particular)...

Check out the Press Freedom index (http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2011-2012,1043.html), Scandinavia has an even freer press than either the US or the UK and has had for a long time.

Right now I got a go and exercise my illusion of freedom and vote. (Local council elections today)

Cheers

Richard
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 02, 2013, 04:29:36 am
PabloMack, I don't know where to start with telling you how naïve some of the things are you are saying.
Fincial crisis 2008 not because of bankers, but because of do-gooders?
USA doing good work in Afghanistan?
People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist?
And last bot not least, denying that USA isn't imperialistic. That's just killing me :) Ever heard of "Confessions of an economic hitman"?
If you have seen/read it I dare you to say this again with the same conviction ;D
I think the media in USA is doing a terrific job in that regard when I read your comment.

In case of "the grass is greener", that is absolutely not true, not even remotely.
Actually, many would mistake(?) this for US arrogance or ignorance.

Some things make sense though! like career politicians who screw up democracy.
What still counts/matters in the end is that they have become career politicians because of corporate interests.
The closest and best example for me are our latest ministers of finances here in The Netherlands.
They facilitated the creation of the Euro, the financial crisis and didn't protect the people from the bankers never ceasing hunger for money and power. Look how they have been rewarded: all with high positions in banks now. Pure coïncidence! Pure coïncidence! I can hear so many people here in The Netherlands and beyond saying that, but they should know better if they have carefully followed their course of action when they were active governers.

In regard to USA and Afghanistan we're told the exact same here, be no mistake about that.
Karzai is being bribed systematically by the CIA, that was in the news a couple of days ago here.
Without bribing Karzai there's no access to all the heads of the Taliban tribes.
It's for a reason they call Karzai the "mayor of Afghanistan" instead of the president.
The Taliban are still in control/power and the USA is bombing the Taliban and a lot of innocent inhabitants with drones.
They do this because the CIA can't get to the tribes. Nobody can, history tells that.
The drones are extremely upsetting both Taliban as well as the ordinary people there, because it's so cowardly and causing so much grief.

In the end this all doesn't matter that much, because what is happening is:

Both USA and Europe are made to believe that NATO is in Afghanistan for a justified reason, as it was in Iraq twice or Vietnam, but no one really explains the true reason.
USA media makes the news shiny to keep the foundation.
Europe media makes the news less shiny to make us believe we would do any better. Which we wouldn't.
The USA vs Europe discussion is great, keeps us busy and allows as not to think too much about stuff that matters.

In conclusion this keeps us all pre-occupied and busy with arguments here, but in the end the true intention of all of this is to not have us understand fully what's happening in the world, how and why.
We need to be born, live to work until death in order to consume corporate goods.
The less we know the better it is. That's all they want from us, these corporate governments.

By the way, this may seem like bittered and depressed, but despite that when you realise and see through these mechanisms it doesn't mean you can't live a happy life :) In many occassions it makes life much easier! For example:
All these people who argue about local politics. I can't be bothered by it anymore. It costs too much energy, for what? To prevent my parking-permit becoming 2% more expensive? To make sure my insurance covers removal of a molar by a dentist? Yeah great, these things really make my mortgage lower, my energy bill and gas cheaper. Or ultimately make me not work for corporate governments, but for my own personal freedom and desires? NO. I safe myself that otherwise wasted energy :)

edit: Thanks Richard for saving me from explaining the Vietnam and the obvious financial crisis stuff.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 02, 2013, 10:34:22 am
Quote from: cyphyr on May 02, 2013, 03:56:10 am...that's the communist bit I was speaking of...This works on a small tribal, village even town scale but scale it up to entire cities, countries and beyond and it falls apart.


I think that attributing this to "communism" even the true communism that you are calling it is not understanding this phenomenon which is observable with all forms of government that allow people local control. People need local control over their lives. This is individual motivation. When someone directly benefits from what he/she builds with their own efforts, it is satisfying. They take ownership of it. They can make sure that resources go into what is important to them. A village is small enough that people who want to accomplish something can negotiate in person and debate about a concept. They can compromise in person and agree on a plan. But when you are taxed away, you don't build anything yourself and you hope that maybe some of those taxes will come back and benefit you and those you care about. In a large organization, the personal interaction is absent. There is plenty of opportunity for embezzlers to drain off money that no one will notice is gone and that is not counting the extra cost of the overhead of administering it. And when more comes back to you and your community than you were taxed, you don't have any direct way of knowing that someone else was cheated. It is local control that causes the better performance of a village, not communism. Sure, it is good when people want to help eachother. That all adds to a better place to live. But lets not confuse communism with local control of funds and resources. That is why the original 13 colonies wanted to confederate and not federalize. That is why taxes should be used locally more and it is a big argument against the redistribution of wealth that the socialists are always pushing. Centralizing is a recipe for waste and disaster.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 02, 2013, 11:57:25 am
Quote from: PabloMack on May 01, 2013, 08:32:32 pm
We in the USA do see some of what good the USA is doing in Afghanistan and how those who don't want their lives to be controlled by the Taliban and Mujahidin are glad we are there. These are the peace loving people who have businesses and don't run around with AK-47's.


yeah right...
only a bit more than 12000 civilians killed... they must be very glad...
and to think that US soldiers came there to bring them peace and democracy must cheer them more.

Hopefully, deads count won't go as high as in Iraq with more than 1 million deads ;)
because that would make them very very glad...
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 02, 2013, 04:27:37 pm
Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2013, 11:57:25 am
only a bit more than 12000 civilians killed... they must be very glad...


I just grabbed this off the web for some of today's casualties:

Original: "A Taliban bomb killed eight Afghan police".

Seth's brain translates this to: "Americans executed eight Afghans today. They are thought to have been planted American spies but they were gunned down just because they were Afghanis".

Also this:

Original: "Units of Afghan police raided Taliban hideouts in Ghazni province 125 km south of Kabul late Wednesday night, leaving six militants dead"

Seth's brain translates this to: "Americans executed six innocent Afghan civilians today"

Also this:

Original: "a border policeman has been killed in what appears to have been an exchange of fire with Pakistani troops along the boundary between the two nations"

Seth's brain translates this to: "a border policement was executed by American marines today near the border with Pakistan."

Also this:

Original: "Taliban militants abducted around 28 Afghan local police forces after attacking a number of security check posts in Ghormach district"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American forces abducted around 28 innocent civilians and threatened to execute them. The Taliban innocents were blamed for their own actions."

From yesterday there is:

Original: "insurgents used a bomb and small arms fire to kill a representative of a government peace council tasked with finding ways to begin talks with the Taliban to end the nearly 12-year-old war"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American soldiers executed an innocent civilian because he knew a way to end the war peacefully"

Also from yesterday:

Original: "Afghan civilians, including three children, were killed and three others wounded when an improvised bomb hit a vehicle in southern province of Uruzgan "

Seth's brain translates this to: "Innocent Afghan civilians, including three children, were killed by American solders on Tuesday who threw an IED at them."

Also yesterday:

Original: "Fighter jets on Wednesday targeted insurgent hideouts in the Orakzai tribal region, killing four militants and destroying two hideouts."

Seth's brain translates this to: "American jets killed four innocent civilians today destroying two homes. They had not even suspected that they were occupied by insurgents. The Americans just thought it was fun to kill those desert people because they are such imperialists."

Also yesterday:

Original: "Up to six Taliban militants have been killed and 10 others detained"

Seth's brain translates this to: "Up to six innocent civilians have been murdered today by American soldiers and 10 others are being held hostage just because AMERICANS ARE IMPERIALISTS!"

Also yesterday:

Original: "According to local authorities in eastern Kunar province of Afghanistan, at least 37 missiles were fired in Dangdam district from the Pakistani soil during the latest wave of cross-border shelling"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American drones launched 37 missiles trying to kill innocent civilians. When the Americans were caught in the act, they claimed that the missiles were actually being fired from poor and innocent Pakistanis who were actually just joyously flying kites."

All obtained from:
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

Now at the top is written: "The bottom line is clear: Our vital interests in Afghanistan are limited and military victory is not the key to achieving them. On the contrary, waging a lengthy counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan may well do more to aid Taliban recruiting than to dismantle the group, help spread conflict further into Pakistan, unify radical groups that might otherwise be quarreling amongst themselves, threaten the long-term health of the U.S. economy, and prevent the U.S. government from turning its full attention to other pressing problems."

I don't disagree with that assessment (sorry if that spoils your evil image of me). They are probably right. But every one of the events listed were not from Americans killing innocent civilians. Just dumb luck? Or does Seth have one of those irrational primitive emotions that the intelligent mind can't control or reason with?
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 02, 2013, 04:52:41 pm
it is not important why people are killed, PabloMack. The important thing is that innocent people are killed.
I suggest you to read a bit more about civilian casualties. Even the statistic given by US admisnistration.
I do not need my brain to translate.
Just read UN reports and  United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan reports.
I do not think you are evil, I think you are brainwashed by your medias, and naive.
your leaders, on the other hand, are truely evil. They are definitely not better than talibans (and I should remember you that talibans were trained and armed by the USA and called soldier of freedom by USA some years ago)


edit :not only your leaders are evil, because I can't think of any good leader around right now.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 02, 2013, 05:43:01 pm
Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2013, 04:52:41 pmit is not important why people are killed, PabloMack.


Tell that to the judge in a criminal murder case. Our reasons for everything we do are (at least potentially) important. It is what the legal profession calls "justifiable cause".

If left up to me, I would have left all peoples of the world alone and only go into other lands (not countries, primitive lands with no modern governments) to explore those places for science. No modern technology like fire arms, water wells, pumps, medicines, famin relief nor aid of any sort whatsoever would be given or otherwise introduced to those people. There would also be no mining, lumbering or agriculture of any sort by modern countries. Any person from an advanced country would be severely punished by bringing any sort of modern article to the primitive peoples who lived in those lands. I really have hard feelings toward those Europeans who tried to change the natives to their own liking. (I also have hard feelings toward those native peoples who have wiped out their wildlife). But once they got rifles, industrialization, nuclear weapons etc, then the rules have to change. There is no use closing the gate after the horses have left the pen. Those formerly primitive peoples now have to be held up to a higher standard. Humans really haved f*#^ed things up, arms dealers and do-gooders alike. All it seems we are doing now is damage control.

Didn't you find reading my translations the least bit amusing? I really enjoyed myself.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 03, 2013, 02:33:58 am
Hey Guys. Thanks. Because its not like I can just walk across the street and ask my neighbor  about living in Eroupoe... Acually he is from China though ;D

A few things I would like to add to the conversation...

@Cypher
what you described in your first post about the kind of community/society you would prefer to live in has been tried, and by your own people in fact.

The Mayflower Compact
In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, Etc.

Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience.

In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620


Given the situation of the landing, the good nature of those involved, and all other variables that I know of, I cannot imagine a better chance for the IDEALS behind communism to actually work in practice. But it did not work. It failed... And pretty badly too. IF you or anyone wants to know more just look up the The Mayflower Compact... But for the love of all that is scholarly, stop relying on wikipidia, people! Its not a scholarly resource. (I am saying this in general, not to you Richard)
(here ends todays rant on wiki)

@Seth,
That program did not say anything bad about France or England. It only showed that some of what is happing in Greece and spain is also happening in the more stable countries in Europe. They only showed that stuff because they made the point that what is going on in the Southern nations is spreading to the North. The program did not say Eroupions were stupid. I did. And I only did to provoke a discusion about something I think is interesting and important with people who are seeing history happen with their own eyes and in person... You guys :) And also because it is funny, since many of you like to point out flaws in the US and call us stupid.

Also I understand your feelings about hating all governments including your own (not just the US) I feel it to sometimes. Im just not ready to lay down.

@T-U
I sense a real effort to be diplomatic on your part. Thank you for that.
QuoteCan anyone here explain to me what they mean with "fascist/fascism" or what it means to them?

Here I think you mean the so called "fascists" in Greece? I can tell you that in the news show from the OP that the leaders of the movement (I cant recall right now what they call their party) Claim not to be Nazis, and that in the interviews they
refuted the notion that they were fascists, saying "fascist is an italian word". "We are Greeks", they said. "We are Nationalists", they said.

However, the parties headquarters was filled with Nazi books, including Goebbels books.
So I say if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck... Its a Nazi!  :o

You asked if I was being too black and white. Well yes black and white, but not too much.
In your analysis you did not consider two of the most important elements of the issues I brought up and  you brought up. That is, History and language.
Language; In the simplest terms (in English) Anarchy is the absence of government, and Communism (not its ideals, but structure) is total government. So it is literally (by definition) impossible to be a Anarchist Communist.
However, if you are suggesting that Anarchy is a way to destabilize the current government, as a way to build support for the communist party, then this is still not Anarchy, it is subterfuge. Subterfuge is a classic tactic of all communist movements.

I can also tell you (based on that show, and those interviews) That none of the activists, from any of the movements, came off as being very intelligent. They all looked rather young. And more than anything It felt like they were just very angry, and even scared.
I did not get the sense at all, that the interviewers were doing the show with an agenda. They seemed to just be curious. And no, I don't think the show was, or was intended to be comprehensive in explaining what is happing in Greece. I felt like it was just supposed to be a look at things.

History; Everyone so far has seamed to leave out a absolutely crucial part of the equation. That is, in the case of Communism, and Fascism (or at least in every case where a government called ITS SELF these things) there ALWAYS has come Totalitarianism.
This is true in every case on every continent. Every effort to establish a Communist government or a Fascist government in earth's history, has required for its establishment, and been responsible for, mass murder, theft, rape and slavery. (murder has also been used to prevent these governments from forming, as well as lesser tactics)

In every case the result of the establishment of a communist Government resulted in gross inequality between the people in the government and the rest of the nation. This inequality is always worse in the end, than it was before the change.

And this is why I used the word stupid in the OP. How can you possibly tolerate the idea, that somehow, todays Europeans can make work, what everyone else, everywhere, has failed at? It is foolish pride. You cannot make a government more "Just", by giving it more power. Communism and fascism only make the evil people in our world more powerful.
I think you would have better luck again trying to turn lead into gold.



I do not deny the problems and issues you or anyone has pointed out. And I share your anger at the likely causes. But the proposed solutions are asinine.

I also have become disillusioned with Democracy. Democracy requires for it to work, a highly moral, highly educated population, where the culture is firmly rooted in a claim to Truth, and where all members belong to the same culture and language (but not race). With those things gone we are doomed. (We are sooooo diverse now though, isn't it great?! Doesn't it just work so well?!)

Lastly,
If I must choose (because of force) between Communism (and to a lesser extent, socialism) or Fascism, I choose Fascism.
Communism (and to a lesser extent, socialism) destroys the individual for the sake of the collective. And with all my heart, I hate the "collective". But I love you all as individuals!
Though I will never have to make this choice, because I will die trying to kill anyone who tries to force it on me.
I do not except any vote, or any majority, that attempts to make me a slave or a serf, or a servant of anyone who hates me, or whom I hate.

You will always have to collect your TAXES (really extortion) under threat of violence. I only pay my taxes because if I don't, the IRS will come to my house with guns, then they will steal my house and put me in jail. Or murder me if I fight back.


Anyway, these are just my feelings. Take em' or leave em'. It wont change anything.

P.S. I realize I say "you" a lot. I really mean people in general. Not you guys here. Its a lazy habit, I know. Sorry.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 03, 2013, 10:02:48 pm
Call me a brainwashed American but I have pretty much the same view as TheBadger. After thinking about the "pure form of communism" and researching it, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a form of government at all. Governments are what rule over these pockets of voluntary cooperation. So from there up, you can have a democracy, a republic, a religious totalitarian state, an oligarchy like we see in what we call "communist states", a dictatorship etc. Everyone should keep in mind that, at least in the USA, people are free to live in a commune if they want to. That means that only people who want to live there do. There is no one forced to live like that. So people who don't like that sort of thing are not represented in any study that some pseudo-scientist might do to try to "understand" this phenomenon. I am excluding cultish groups that have a charismatic leader like the "Branch Dividian" who held people captive and brainwashed people who, in reality, lived under threat of punishment. So I think this true form of communism should be left out of discussions of forms of government just like we would leave out other groups like the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology or the National Rifle Association. People in those groups love it because they chose to belong. Like TheBadger says, if someone forced him to be in a commune he would hate it. I would too.

I want to share what to me is a remarkable personal experience. I have a neighbor, a lady in at least her 70's who used to live next door to my mother-in-law. She is a close friend of ours and a member of our church. She had a son Randy who I met about three years ago when we first moved to our new house which is now in this neighborhood. Randy had married and divorced and had no children. He was a very religious man and he started reading all of this "latter day" hype on the web and he started to believe a lot of it. One of these things he came across I investigated and it took me no more than fifteen minutes to discover it was a hoax. But telling this to Randy was insulting to him. He became alarmed and decided to abandon his plans for the future because he felt that the end of the world was near. He quit his job and joined a commune in Arkansas. I would hear about him periodically through his mother. I think he somewhat found some fulfillment. He was a hard worker but he ended up being about the only one who would do all of the work in the commune. He got very little help from the predominantly lazy members of the commune. I am trying to paraphrase what Bernice told me from the letters that her son wrote her.

After about a year, he came down with cancer that ultimately forced him to come back to live out the final days with his family. Other members of the commune would have done little for him in his weak state. I am presuming that they just wanted all of the free labor that he provided. After his life was over, I attended his memorial. His nephew and brother gave wonderful monologues about him and I wish I had recorded them on video. His nephew loved his uncle and talked about how he longed to understand this enigma who was his uncle. This man was truely remarkable. He had inspired me to begin writing a screen play for a full feature movie about his life even before he abandoned his plans to join the commune. It is surreal that the rest of his life was to be lived out in front of me even before I got very far in the script. I wish I had recorded the eulogy because I could really use it to finish the screen play. His nephew is now a lawyer.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 04, 2013, 04:57:58 am
Pablo,
Its interesting that this conversation brought a cult to your thoughts.
The cult of personality is alive and well in western civilization. For me I see no difference in whatever cult or sect it was in your story, and the modernist neo-religions that grow up under Communist, Fascist, world views.

Just take the blind faith that is given to the secular "statesmen" of our times. Their words are often revered and defended as if they were spoken by Jesus, or Mohamed, or the Buddha. They become like Roman Emperors who are paid tribute like a god, despite the obvious temporal, human fallibility of their being.
Only the worship is not like you find in a temple or church. But is preformed as a kind of works based personal salvation faith.
And because of them we end up with ideas like "liberation theology" and Concepts as pointless as "social justice", or in the case of communism, the state will become a perverted form of a living god where service to the state is the highest calling.

In Christianity, a member of the Church is said to be part of the body of Christ. Its likewise in communist ideology, so that the collective is the living soul of the state. Believe it or not, the philosophy of modernism actually teaches that man is literally God. And in communism the State is the manifestation of divinity on Earth. This is how the world ends up with people like Stalin, and Hugo Chavez, and Castro in Cuba, and so many other examples. It always ends up the same! They become the roll of living martyrs, the images of the faith, messiahs. But there can be only one God, so all other views must be crushed. This is why wherever there is Communism there is religious persecution. The religions that are allowed must also pay tribute to the State. Sound familiar?

This is why I never understood how an atheist could be a communist. Its like their making fun of themselves.



Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 04, 2013, 06:09:40 am
T-U
QuoteIt's a natural process. An end will come to this, things will get better and then it starts all over again etc. etc.


Ahh, I missed this point in your post. So you think this is just things balancing out? I have heard some other people make this argument.
I think that it is the most hopeful possible explanation of whats happening. I hope you are right.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: AP on May 04, 2013, 03:01:28 pm
Things can get better but i am more of an optimist and i do not see the process starting all over again. At least not on the scale of previous human history. The power of the Internet is waking people up as before all we had to rely on is the Mainstream Media and Newspapers. No longer. What i see daily on You Tube and various Blogs all over the Internet is folks slowly starting to wake up and gather the knowledge through technology that the State is bad for everyone. The new younger generations are starting to realize this and they are questioning there Schools, Government, what the bad cops are doing and so on. The a revolution starting to rise. I see more talk about gold, silver, bitcoin, litecoin. There is a movement here in the US were folks are building there own self-sustaining mobile homes wanting to get off of the grid, not wanting a mortgage, nothing to do with the banks, growing there own vegetable gardens, discovering the abuse of Monsanto GMO Foods. Taxation itself is being questioned as a form of Theft. Libertarians are invading the Neo-Con Parties. Agorist communities being planned all over. Pharmaceuticals are being put into question. War being a racket. So on and so on.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 04, 2013, 09:33:21 pm
Seth, could you give us your spin on what is going on in Mali?
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 05, 2013, 07:42:29 am
I am always for non-interventionism.
As it is written on the charter of the UN.
France went there because we fucked up everything in Lybia, giving to violent islamists weapons and capacities to destabilize other countries around.
As USA did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
French african politic is absolutely scandalous, we act as if they still were our colony.
And Europe is doing the same thing with the countries it rules.
And USA tries to do the same thing to the World.
Thanks to people like Putin, Ahmadinejad, Chavez and other rebels, USA didn't win yet. I don't share their views (of the guys I named), but I can say I share their rebellious attitude, and hopefully, one day the World will be something else than what we know today and that we will have a multitude of ways of life, not only the american one as a model.

It is funny, well that is not the word I might use, to read people writing that communism or fascism brought inequality or get lots of people killed, and went from an idea to totalitarism !
Just look at what capitalism and so-called democracy is doing in every country.
Denying democracy, bringing war everywhere for ressources (but telling everybody it is for freedom and democracy), inequality is everywhere (more than 47.8 millions poor people in USA need food stamps to survive), even justifying the killing of millions people.
Propaganda turns people into mindless puppet, happy to share the opinion of the "majority", and considering others as stupid and even enemies.

It is easy to citicize other kind of government and seeing them as evil, but really, "we" do the same, and I bet in several centuries people will see us as evil barbarian murderers.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 05, 2013, 08:06:58 am
Seth, I agree with you on a lot. And even where I do not agree with you I often understand and share your sentiment.

But...
QuoteThanks to people like Putin, Ahmadinejad, Chavez

This is a little sick. And not at all correct. These people are brutal animals. You say we (the US) kill to many people, and you are right. But the people you say are good kill there own people. Even animals do not kill their own. And Ahmadinejad is a little insane.

And...
Quotemore than 47.8 millions poor people in USA need food stamps to survive

Everything in France is subsidised. not just food for the poor, but nearly every aspect of life.
And your unemployment is much higher than it is here per capita.

http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm despite that france has a much smaller population. 65.44 million Vs 313.9 million (2012) in the US.

Socialism does not work. But when it fails people who refuse to except that, blame America.
Socialism does not necessarily lead to totalitarianism, so I do not take issue with your people choosing it. Its your right.
But I would not want it. I don't even like food stamps. Its shameful that we need food stamps here so much now. Im really embarrassed by it. But I don't want kids to starve either. So I don't say anything bad about people who have to use them.

As soon as Obama is out, the jobs should come back. Right now a company is taxed an amount near equal to what any employee is paid, for each employee . So if the taxes were taken away, a company could higher twice as many people, or pay twice as much for the same work.

I am not saying there are no problems here . I am saying that looking to old ideas (such as Communism) and old technology (like solar and wind in the case of the environment) are not solutions. The left has no good ideas at all. And the far right is a little crazy. So we are here in the middle fighting it out.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 05, 2013, 08:36:02 am
As I said, I don't support those guys, I just thank the fact that they are still leaders in the world not ready to put their pants down in front of the USA.
Oh yes, in France, we try to take care of poor people too, instead of taking care of the reason of their poverty.
It was not an attack against USA only, but against a logic, that is applied in almost every capitalist and so-called democratic country.

Mmmmh, I'd rather prefer a leader that kills his own people than a leader than kills millions of people from another country.
Should I remember you that Ahmadinejad was elected in Iran, and that Iran never attack another country first ?
Should I remember all the black ops against Chavez ?
Should I remember that Putin brought pride back in Russia when Eltsine sold the country to USA ?

Oh yes they are not the democratic kind of guys you ("we") like... so what ?
Who are we to decide ? The axe of Good ?
Bring Powell back with his weapons of mass destruction to explain us with simple words.

USA is not the police of the World, nobody decided they should decide who is good and who is bad.
I didn't care about the talibans, as they didn't care about me.
USA should take care of their violence problem before taking care of violence in the other countries.


And you have to admit that if communism failed, USA was part of it. I think I remember something called Cold War back then.
And don't mistake my purpose, I am faaaar from being communist.
I am attached to private property. Some ideas are good in communism, but that is not my way of thinking.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 05, 2013, 08:50:47 am
^^ Thank you for clarifying. I agree with nearly everything you say in your last post.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 04:22:09 am
Putin, Ahmadinejad, Chavez to various degees stand for something that isn't part of the globalist banking cartel so they are a check on power, like them or not.

Things can be boiled down to simpler terms. We have the collective and Individual. It's human nature than we are willfully creative individuals so any collective ideas must be kept in check to protect the individual.

Democracy is useless by itself. 51% of the population can decide the other 49% get exterminated. That would be democratic. Democracy means mob rule. Tyrants love it as long as they can manipulate the ideas. For this they need propoganda such as we see in mainstream media. This is why democracy must be kept in check by inalieniable rights. These were god given rights initially. These rights must not be given by government like EU human rights which have lots of exceptions. There are no rights in the European Convention on Human Rights. All government needs to do is claim a state of emergency and you have no rights. If it's decided they are god given or from some higher level than government then they can not be removed by government.

The whole left right thing is a divide and conquer.

The government's purpose should be to represent the people. One way of doing this is for money to be released direct from government for purposes of sustaining wealth and productivity of the people into the future. Of course for this to work the people need to be educated and alert to any corruption. Mainstream media propoganda steps in here again. There is still a problem with government printing money directly but I think private banks printing money is even worse. We also need other money systems to keep the government in check.

To boil things down further. Progress of humanity is due to the willful creativity of people as individuals that can increase productivity for everyone due to an increase in energy flux density. This is what marks us out from the rest of life on this planet. No other animal is capable of willfull creativity and developing energy from sources such as fire for example. Windmills and solar power are low energy flux density. They can not replace oil so we need new ways. Nuclear power and related directions is the only way unless you are an Oligarch who simply wants a mass culling of people. All those unemployed people in Greece, Spain and elsewhere are simply excess to requirements of the Oligarchy. Check out the story of Prometheus who was codemnded by the gods for bringing fire to the people. The gods we have now are a bunch of psychopathic Oligarchs in governments and banks. This austerity business is simply a method of handing power over to the "gods" (bankers and government) rather than it being in the hands of people.

Most of above was the reason behind the American Constitution. Yet America is now a tool of these gods and their empire.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 05:11:53 am
The reaction in Boston to the bombings demonstrates how far gone the US is because under the constitution you have inalienable rights. It doesn't matter what has happened, the Police don't have a right to shut down a city and march innocent people out of their homes at gunpoint unless they have specific evidence to say that a terrorist suspect is on your property. It was one 19 year old guy. A danger yes, but not enough to come anywhere near justifying the reaction.

Once you have a situtation where government can just declare some state of emergency and set up a total police state where you have no rights then all freedom is gone. This is exactly what Hitler did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 05:25:33 am
Here's the UK's version of Hitler's enabling act:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Contingencies_Act_2004
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 05:37:13 am
Here's some things that the UK Civil Contingency Act would allow. I don't know what similar things are set up in the rest of Europe but this act was apparently to harmonise us with Europe:

Confiscation of property, with or without compensation
Destruction of property, animals or plants; with or without compensation
Deployment of the armed forces
Forced movement, to or from a place
Forcing a person to act, without remuneration or compensation
Prohibiting assembly
Prohibiting travel, or virtually any other activity
Imposing taxation or compulsory ID cards
Restricting the freedom of the press
Banning a critical organisation
Neutralising the House of Lords as a brake on Government power to act
Handing over powers to a foreign power or armed force
Dissolution of Parliament; appointment of a new government and PM
Appointment of judges and magistrates
Concluding an international Treaty
Recognising the legitimacy of a foreign State
Acting where there are any gaps in statutory 'emergency powers'
Under Act of State rules, Crown servant immunity from court action can be given for 'torts' (in England) and 'crimes committed outside its jurisdiction'
Pardoning a convicted person

We now have massive growth in support for UKIP (United Kingdon Independance Party) in the UK. Headed up by Nigel Farage although it seems that even Farage doesn't have a full grasp of things.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 05:54:19 am
One thing that ties the UK and the US together is common law. That's based on certain fundamental rights. Bills or acts in UK and US government do not trump common law or at least they are not supposed to. This is what the US Constitution is based on. For The EU to set up its be all end all biggest tyranny of all time the US and UK have to be overthrown. Notice Obama is ready to sign up to things like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU%E2%80%93US_Free_Trade_Agreement

He's already signed up the a UN treaty which essentially destroys the second ammendment. You can't have people with guns in a police state. They will push and push to disarm the American people.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: efflux on May 06, 2013, 06:26:14 am
The Dichotomy of the UK is that you have the country of Great Britain then you have the United Kingdom Corporation. In the America you have The United States Of America then you have the United States Corporation. City Of London and Washington DC are also separate states. The real countries have common law. The corporate angle is run under corporate law. This is what all the Bills and Acts are. In the US and UK (also British Commonwealth countries) this corporate law is meant to always be trumped by the law of the land which is common law. America is the strongest last vestige of this law of the land. Most countries are purely corporate and the people are techically slaves and property of state. Free trade is simply corporate law for the benefit of corporations. That's why Obama will sign any old corporate treaty. He's a puppet. Many Islamic countries are not this way though. That's due to laws being seen as from god not created by corporate governments. When people lost these religious beliefs they did not replace those higher than government powers with anything. Once government is the highest power you end up with no rights. Many tyrannies literally outlaw religion for this reason.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 06, 2013, 10:24:27 pm
QuotePutin, Ahmadinejad, Chavez to various degees stand for something that isn't part of the globalist banking cartel so they are a check on power, like them or not.

You can say the same about this guy:
[attachimg=1]
I think this is the President of Turkmenistan or something.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: yossam on May 07, 2013, 01:03:04 am
I didn't know they had rednecks.  :o
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: cyphyr on May 07, 2013, 04:43:59 am
EVERYBODY has rednecks!
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Seth on May 07, 2013, 06:08:53 am
Quote from: TheBadger on May 06, 2013, 10:24:27 pm

You can say the same about this guy:
[attachimg=1]
I think this is the President of Turkmenistan or something.




hehehe Here is the bigger version available : http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4527/1235235295253.jpg
That, my dear TheBadger, is a fine american redneck !
Did you notice the Guitar Hero Controller ? ;)

Oh and just for information, that is the president of Turkmenistan : http://blouinnews.com/sites/default/files/styles/640x432/public/images/story/2012_10_20/turkmenistan-president-kurbanguly-berdymukhamedov.jpg
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 07, 2013, 09:17:13 am
Quote from: Seth on May 07, 2013, 06:08:53 am
hehehe Here is the bigger version available : http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4527/1235235295253.jpg
That, my dear TheBadger, is a fine american redneck !


Ha-ha-ha. Seth, you are so innocent. Someone needs to take you out to a real redneck bar so you can meet a real American redneck. In the USA that guy would have been riding a Harley Davidson forty years ago. It would most likely have been one of those "choppers". He likes the feel of his long hair blowing in the wind. He probably doesn't even wear a helmet when he is on the road. If he does it would be one of those Kaiser-style half helmets the Germans wore in WWI, you know, with the silver spike on the top. Bikers today are most often "skin heads". Rednecks in Texas are clean cut, take baths, wear cowboy hats and drive pickup trucks with shotgun racks on the back. But they make the best Bar-B-Cue in the world. The South African "bries" don't even come close. The reason they are called "red necks" is that they get a lot of sun exposure on the backs of their necks which you can't get if you are a long-haired "hippy". They are typical of the oil field worker. True red necks are hard workers. Hippies don't want to work and are generally slobs like the guy in Turkmenistan. Seems over time, though, this dichotomy has blurred a great deal.

It seems that the image of the biker of the 60's and 70's has changed so the guy in Turkmenistan is 40 years behind the times in the USA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqPK80CFxbQ

I recently discovered that the Voortrekkers of South Africa know the words to "Sweet Home Alabama" better than most Americans. They would get along real well with American rednecks because they are cut out of the same mold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA

The NRA just had their national convention in Houston this past weekend. My wife and I went just because they were in town this year. We went down and got in free because I had my brand new shiney membership card. Those in attendance appeared to be a typical cross-section of law abiding conservative America. Granted, some of those would not be so law abiding if they were economically stressed.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: AP on May 07, 2013, 11:36:24 am
Not really a fan of the NRA, more of a GOA person myself. Gun Owners of America. Of course i stand with the natural human right of self-defense to protect life over the merely the Second Amendment in which case our natural rights were here long before the signed documents.

True about the Rednecks... hehehe.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 08, 2013, 02:07:31 am
QuoteDid you notice the Guitar Hero Controller ?


No! from the small image I thought they were real Guitars. HAHHAHHA HAH AHHA HAH AAHHAA  AHHAHHAHA AHAH AHA hha ahah aHA hh ah ha!
What a guy!

I do like the knives though. In case he looses all his guns, and if he needs to get in close and personal, he can still make the kill.  ::)

QuoteOh and just for information, that is the president of Turkmenistan : http://blouinnews.com/sites/default/files/styles/640x432/public/images/story/2012_10_20/turkmenistan-president-kurbanguly-berdymukhamedov.jpg


Ahh your right. Dip shits all look the same to me.

The guy in the photo is President kurbanguly berdymukhamedov's Step brother, Raúl berdymukhamedov. He is President kurbanguly berdymukhamedov's Policy enforcer.
Mess with the kubaguly, and you will get the Raúl.

In fact there is a saying in Turkmenistan. Loosely translated it goes:
"Shit! Its Raul!"
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 03:06:11 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 02, 2013, 04:29:36 am
PabloMack, I don't know where to start with telling you how naïve some of the things are you are saying.
Fincial crisis 2008 not because of bankers, but because of do-gooders?


TU, tell me what happens when a bank makes a lot of loans and the borrowers can't or won't repay them on a massive scale. Don't go off on a humanitarian tear or some other philanthropic tangent. Just answer that simple question please.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: cyphyr on May 08, 2013, 03:56:30 pm
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 04:09:35 pm
Quote from: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 03:06:11 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 02, 2013, 04:29:36 am
PabloMack, I don't know where to start with telling you how naïve some of the things are you are saying.
Fincial crisis 2008 not because of bankers, but because of do-gooders?


TU, tell me what happens when a bank makes a lot of loans and the borrowers can't or won't repay them on a massive scale. Don't go off on a humanitarian tear or some other philanthropistic tangent. Just answer that simple question please.


Don't try putting words into my mouth ;)

The shortest answer to that simple question is the answer you want to hear....but I know you're sometimes the type of guy who stops reading any further, so I'll save it for the end ;)

If you dive into the origin of the Fed, the big crunch in the 30's, installation of glass-steagall and such, then the breakdown of these inhibitory/regulating laws to prevent banks from abusing their position and prevent speculation, then you'll see more clearly what the crisis is about and what caused it.
There's an extreme lot more to it than people borrowing money and not being able to pay it back.

People who had these loans and couldn't pay for it caused the banks to go bankrupt.
Following your logic the banks tried to do good by giving people opportunities (I'll refrain from using parentheses here).

That's the answer you wanted to hear, wasn't it? ;)

As I have superbriefly explained there's a whole history before this crisis which made this all possible.
There's a lot more to it, but yes if you look at this as short-sighted as you do then none of this will or can make any sense, probably?

So to end a bit more constructive rather than expressing my amazement and disappointment in lack of observation and healthy amount of skepticism towards the "do-gooders", I would like to suggest to read this, just for starters:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/05/innovation-ayn-rand-intelligent-technology-capitalism.html

(from) there you can read that capitalism works if money is being backed up by something substantial, like labor.
In the past decades virtual fiat money has been created which wasn't being backed up by any kind of substantial thing of actual value.
Look up how fractional banking works and you'll find out.
Look up how US mortgages were backed by sick insurances.
Look up how the financial lobbyists destroyed all the protective mechanisms, designed in the 30's, which were to prevent a financial crisis like this.
Look up how Goldman Sachs tricked Greece into creeping the crisis into Europe (which would happen anyway)
Look up how high frequency trading affects money
Look up how high frequency trading was developed (it is STOLEN technology from a guy who was hired to PREVENT high frequency trading)

etc. etc.

But no no no....you still think it are do-gooders?
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 04:30:50 pm
Cyphyr: Assuming your post was an attempt to answer my question, how about multiple choice?

  1. This is the borrower's addiction that made him lose his job so that he can't repay his loan.
  2. This is the borrower's reaction to his wife leaving him so he no longer had motive to repay his loan
       as in the Johnny Paycheck song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzGoDtmTllg
  3. This is the bank executive after the borrower refused to pay the loan.
  4. This is the home builder celebrating that he stuck the bank with a bad loan but got his money up front.
  5. This is the bank depositer who had money in the bank but is about to be screwed out of cash by the irresponsible borrower.
  6. This is the FDIC representative who realizes the bank is going to make a claim on the loss.
  7. This is a socialist ranting about the greedy banks because they don't give all of their depositors' money to the unemployed.
  8. This is the taxpayer who realizes his taxes are going to be used in a bailout because a bunch of deadbeats wouldn't
      pay back their loans.
  9. This is an insurgent that is celebrating because the western economy is about to colapse from bank loan defaults.
10. This is a "end timer" who believes that the banking colapse was staged to bring about a one world government.
11. This is the celebrating future world dictator whose plans to bring about a one world government seem to be panning out
      because of a global financial colapse.
12. This is a charity worker who is frustrated that so many people lost their money in bank defaults that they have nothing to
      give to his charity.
13. This man is over-using his medication for an ear infection (it has nothing to do with banking).
14. All of the Above.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 04:40:24 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 04:09:35 pm
Following your logic the banks tried to do good by giving people opportunities.
That's the answer you wanted to hear, wasn't it? ;)


No. I don't think that the banks were trying to do good here. I think that government and
non-profit programs helped people get loans that they couldn't repay. In the USA, at least,
it was many of these people who defaulted on their loans. The do-gooders were the ones
who helped set up this house of cards with their home ownership programs.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: cyphyr on May 08, 2013, 04:43:09 pm
None of the above.

It represents my frustration at peoples inability to see the UTTER corruption of the world banking system.

It was not the defaulting on loans back in 08 and before that caused the international collapse. People refuse to see this. It was the international corrupt banking cartels manipulation of interest rates on an unimaginable (this "unimaginable" bit is part of the problem) level.
Please look in to LIDOR and ISDAfix.
These rates control entire countries debt. And they are manipulated to the profit of a very small group of unelected people.
The debt on you or anyone else's mortgage in NOTHING in comparison.

Richard
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 05:02:24 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 04:09:35 pm
Following your logic the banks tried to do good by giving people opportunities.
That's the answer you wanted to hear, wasn't it? ;)


No. I don't think that the banks were trying to do good here. I think that government and
non-profit programs helped people get loans that they couldn't repay. In the USA, at least,
it was many of these people who defaulted on their loans. The do-gooders were the ones
who helped set up this house of cards with their home ownership programs. But, as you
have pointed out, this is not the only thing going on with the banking industry. I am sorry
if I gave you the impression that I was saying that it was.

Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 04:09:35 pmBut no no no....you still think it are do-gooders?


When I wrote "do-gooders" I think I stepped on a nerve. A whole lot of ideas popped into your mind that were not intended by me. You say don't put words in your mouth (likewise I am sure). Let's de-escalate our emotional states. I am not disagreeing with you and I am agreeing with you in many ways. The government bailouts are terrible and taxpayers should not be punished for failures like GM etc. Bailouts also send a signal to business executives that they can give themselves bigger bonuses because the shortfall will be made up by the government. These people should go to prison or be shot.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 05:07:06 pm
No you're right about that. It seemed that you didn't intend or mean that the financial system was the do-good, but something else.
So I was mistaken, although in the context of the discussion and in retrospect I can't see a lead yet which would give me a hint you would mean something else.
Anyway, not important anymore.

In that regard, yes then you step on a nerve, because it's frustrating in a way to see so much ignorance on this topic everywhere.
Again, in this case it seemed otherwise.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 05:13:54 pm
Quote from: cyphyr on May 08, 2013, 04:43:09 pm
It was the international corrupt banking cartels manipulation of interest rates on an unimaginable (this "unimaginable" bit is part of the problem) level.


Are you saying they set the rates too high for borrowers or too low for depositers (or both)? All I know is that banks charge 29% and more on credit cards while I get next to zero as a depositer. Almost all of the interest the banks should be paying me to use my money they are spending trying to get more cash out of me by printing up "offers" and buying postage for tons of unwanted mail that I just throw in the trash. I don't borrow money anymore because I would just get screwed. Perhaps I don't complain a lot about this because we live way below our means and pay as we go.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 05:17:25 pm
Quote from: cyphyr on May 08, 2013, 04:43:09 pm
None of the above.

It represents my frustration at peoples inability to see the UTTER corruption of the world banking system.

It was not the defaulting on loans back in 08 and before that caused the international collapse. People refuse to see this. It was the international corrupt banking cartels manipulation of interest rates on an unimaginable (this "unimaginable" bit is part of the problem) level.
Please look in to LIDOR and ISDAfix.
These rates control entire countries debt. And they are manipulated to the profit of a very small group of unelected people.
The debt on you or anyone else's mortgage in NOTHING in comparison.

Richard


I suppose you mean Libor, Richard?

I agree with you about the amount of corruption.
So much has already been directly proven of corruption and even a whole lot more is, despite being circumstantial, very clearly corrupted.
The sad thing is, we all know it's the tip of the iceberg.
I'm even afraid it's the grain of the tip of the iceberg, simply blown away by those unelected people you're referring to.
Without that grain or broken tip of the iceberg there's way enough left for them to regain what's "lost".

It's rooted deeply into everything around us and I'd like to refer to (one of) my first posts here where I briefly explained we're in the first place born because our parents loved to have and do love a child, but for the rest it's only meant you serve the system. You go to school, taught you need to learn a job, serve the system, consume, work until you're almost dead and then die. Thank you for your labor AND your money (how capitalistic is that huh, well it is not, it's corporatism through slavery).

Luckily I only think like this in discussions like these, because it's a supersad truth without much hope for change.
Very depressing if you can't detach yourself from this truth.
At least it's true in my eyes. I do not think a couple of unelected guys invented this way of life deliberately as part of some conspiracy (hate to use that word!), but they definitely slowly created this world of financial slavery by debt.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 05:25:17 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 05:17:25 pm
I do not think a couple of unelected guys invented this way of life deliberately as part of some conspiracy (hate to use that word!), but they definitely slowly created this world of financial slavery by debt.


"Neither a borrower nor a lender be" It's not a new concept.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 05:26:25 pm
Quote from: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 05:13:54 pm
Quote from: cyphyr on May 08, 2013, 04:43:09 pm
It was the international corrupt banking cartels manipulation of interest rates on an unimaginable (this "unimaginable" bit is part of the problem) level.


Are you saying they set the rates too high for borrowers or too low for depositers (or both)? All I know is that banks charge 29% and more on credit cards while I get next to zero as a depositer. Almost all of the interest the banks should be paying me to use my money they are spending trying to get more cash out of me by printing up "offers" and buying postage for tons of unwanted mail that I just throw in the trash. I don't borrow money anymore because I would just get screwed. Perhaps I don't complain a lot about this because we live way below our means and pay as we go.


No what you're talking about doesn't even compare to what they consider pocket money.

What Richard is referring to is how Banks abuse Libor to manipulate trillions (yes that's 13 digits) of dollars on a daily basis.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qZWDemn_njg#!

Enjoy!
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 08, 2013, 05:33:48 pm
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 08, 2013, 05:07:06 pmthe do-good


I don't know how you use the term "do-gooder" but in the US it is derogatory. This was taken from dictionary.com:

"a well-intentioned but naive and often ineffectual social or political reformer."

It says exactly what I meant.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 05:58:21 am
Raul's wife speaks out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N3qtpdSQox0

[attachimg=1]

Papa?
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 09, 2013, 08:44:01 am
Quote from: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 05:58:21 am
Papa?


The selfish gene wants to deceive and cuckold you (and your wife).
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 09:10:23 am
Are you calling my wife a whore Pablo? Perhaps you should clarify your joke.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 10:09:31 am
Just kidding Mack ;)
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 09, 2013, 11:24:08 am
Quote from: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 09:10:23 amAre you calling my wife a whore Pablo? Perhaps you should clarify your joke.


The term "Cuckold" comes from the Cuckoo laying its egg in another bird's nest (always a different species. Cuckoos don't build nests). NEITHER of the surrogate parents is biologically the parent of the chick. The biological mother of the chick never sees the chick hatch and the biological father never even sees the egg. So BOTH foster parents are cuckolded. This is in line with the true behavior of the Eurasian Cuckoo. (BTW American Cuckoos are not brood parasites, no implied generalization intended) This is what the woman in the video is promoting. She wants to lay her baby in your nest so she can get busy making her next illegitimate to lay in another host's nest.

Naturally, the ignorance of the man who coined the term misunderstood what was actually happening with the Cuckoo and its host species. He assumed the self-centered paranoid approach and feared that he would be raising another man's child that is still his wife's child. Sure this happens, but it isn't what the Cuckoo does. A male Cuckoo doesn't mate with its host species females.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 11:42:24 am
lol. Well thats more than I knew. But I knew what you meant.
Your unusual knowledge of ornithology aside, the term is also a nasty deviant fetish.

I think your a little off though anyway. I think she is less interested in me raising her kids and more interested in making sure I don't raise my kids with any hope of knowing about things that she disagrees with.

This women is not at all concerned with "raising" children. She just wants to make sure their indoctrinated into her lunatic world view.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 09, 2013, 12:53:21 pm
Quote from: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 11:42:24 am
This women is not at all concerned with "raising" children. She just wants to make sure their indoctrinated into her lunatic world view.


Cuckoos (both genders) don't have to be concerned with raising children but (at least) the females have to be concerned with deception. They are stealthy and are very careful to sneak their eggs into the nest while the host parents are not looking. They fool the host into thinking that the cuckoo egg is their own (sound familiar from listening to the video?). Chances are that neither she nor the cuckoo really understands WHY they do what they do. How successful would she be in changing your behavior if she laid it all out on the table in plain view as it really is? Indoctrination into her lunatic world confuses (deception) her listeners and so she and others like her can continue her programmed behavior as cuckoo analogs in human society. They even use the government to promote their sinister behavior. Spread their own genes but get you to do all of the work and replace yours with their own. Hmmm...that's similar to how viruses work too. Mass Action is not easy to understand because you "can't see the forest for the trees". But just think about the little steps in Cuckoo behavior that brought about the species becoming a brood parasite. Mass Action happens in societies too.

Thanks Badger for the video.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 01:18:40 pm
Quote...concerned with deception. They are stealthy and are very careful to sneak their eggs into the nest while the host parents are not looking...


But thats the thing, there is no deception, no conspiracy. No one is hiding anything, and it is all out on the table.
conspiracy requires a secret to be kept. But everyone sees everything. Everyone clearly articulates what they want and how their going to get it.

The problem is the "masses" don't care, don't understand the dangers, or just don't want to be bothered. And everyone knows it, including the masses.
People are not trying to figure out whats going on, they are picking sides.

Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: PabloMack on May 09, 2013, 02:05:30 pm
Quote from: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 01:18:40 pm
there is no deception, no conspiracy. No one is hiding anything, and it is all out on the table.


Does there have to be a conspiracy for there to be deception? Did the Cuckoos conspire as a species to become brood parasites? Where do they hold their annual convention? As I said, I don't think this woman understands her motives. She is not very smart. How many of her relatives were raised and fed by taxpayer money? How many had teen pregnancies and were turned over to the state to raise them? If not many, is this what she is unconsciously after? ...to let her and her kind be irresponsible and make the taxpayer deal with the messes they create (and ultimately replace the taxpayers with their own cuckoos)? How many responsible taxpayers were so burdended with taxes that they decided they couldn't afford to have their own children because so much of their earnings are taxed away to feed and raise the illegitimate children of irresponsible people? What better way to get rid of your political opponents than to breed them out of existance? Sure, in the video she talks about "your children". But if she gets you into that way of thinking, you will soon be considering everyone else's children to be your own children, just like the Cuckoo. Before long, your resources are so drained away by the government raising everyone else's (illegitimate?) children that you don't have enough to justify having your own children. And who is going to watch this woman after the camera is turned off while she sneaks away to find a government program to pay for her illegitimate child's upbringing?  Is all of this really on the table? Where in the video does she talk about all of this? Its not a conspiracy. Its Mass Action. Humans are given far too much credit for having the intelligence to plan the failures they cause. You don't need a conspiracy for human failure. Chaos can do that on its own.

What I didn't tell you is that the newly hatched Cuckoo pushes the other legitimate eggs out of the nest. The host species is gradually replaced by the parasite and its resources are used to promote the parasite. Cuckoos don't raise children because they have lost the ability. All they know is how to make babies and get others to raise them.

Anyway, I've said enough. I don't want to beat a dead horse. The analogy isn't without flaws.
Title: Re: National socialism and communism in Greece?
Post by: AP on May 09, 2013, 09:36:08 pm
Quote from: TheBadger on May 09, 2013, 05:58:21 am
Raul's wife speaks out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N3qtpdSQox0

[attachimg=1]

Papa?


Speaking of...

http://youtu.be/29FhZ5Dseec