Since soft shadows aren't implemented just yet, I decided to try a 'fake' soft shadow technique I had been using while back in Bryce. The actual soft shadows are real, but not truly 100% accurate. Either way, it looks nice.
As you can see, this adds a smoother, more realistic look.
So this is what soft shadows will likely look like when implemented in TG2 (though probably better than this).
Many thanks to Planetside for their work so far!
I am working on building the light model (in .tgc form) for use in other images. Once complete, I'll post it here. The only problem is, the light position is set and will require some serious work to move it.
It would be nice to at least have this option available. From what I heard, tg2 does have this capability but it is still dormant due to speed issues. I really hope soft shadows cast by other objects (sans clouds) become available in the next update since there are a few scenes i'm not gonna be able to finish without it.
Care to share the trick btw?
Nice job, moodflow. Cool workaround. I'm looking forward to this as well.
really interesting man great job.
Regards,
Will
Here are some test renders featuring soft shadows.
There are various ways to implement soft shadows, such as changing the size of the "light disk" and the density of each individual "sun". The closer they are, the sharper the line (though still soft).
Below are some lower res versions of different densities, which are: off, 1, 2, 4, 8. As you can see, there is a noticeable difference between the first image and the rest. The first image, with NO soft-shadows, has a sharp shadow line, and less detail in the shadows, compared to the rest (especially the last 3).
Yes. Yes. Yes. <saliva dripping from chin> Uh huh, sure, yeah. I like it.
Here is a quick render of a tree with soft shadows off, soft shadows on (21 suns), and soft shadows on (89 suns).
You can definitely see softer, more pleasing colors and shading on the leaves. A higher quality render would show it even better - these were rendered at 400x300 @ quality of .25. The 89 sun version has even more accuracy, as you can see by the shadow. Unfortunately, the render times go up significantly, but atleast this workaround is now available.
You've been saying something about a TGC. If you are going to share it, great. But, without being demanding, it seems like it could be done with a little time. I wonder what Planetside will do to make this happen.
Hey Calico,
Here's the .tgc files. Sorry for the delay, but I got yanked away from my PC this morning just before I was able to post it.
The first file is the 89 sun file. Be sure to delete your current sun in your scene. This one is also more precise.
The second file is the 21 sun file, and is less precise, but renders alot faster.
Be sure to let me know what you think and post some image files or tests you've done. I'd love to see them.
The tree shadows really show your work off :D. Good stuff man
Quote from: BPauba on June 21, 2007, 12:20:09 AM
The tree shadows really show your work off :D. Good stuff man
Thanks! Hopefully this will help bring our images to the next level.
I'm rendering now (over 5 hours already) and will post a link to the results in the image section when it's completed. Thanks for the cool clip file.
Super! Can't wait to see what you've come up with.
Moodflow, I'm posting the image up at the Image section. It was 35 hours.
@calico: I coul not find that image ... do you have a link?
@moodlflow: I used to use lightdomes in Bryce, too ... I was not able to get it that way in TG2 - thanks for showing the way - it is a great solution!
Volker
I'm confused, Volker. Did you mean my image? - http://www.lvshost.com/users/student/Terragen/calico_Week_6/Week_6.jpg
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 03, 2007, 01:55:18 PM
@calico: I coul not find that image ... do you have a link?
@moodlflow: I used to use lightdomes in Bryce, too ... I was not able to get it that way in TG2 - thanks for showing the way - it is a great solution!
Volker
I did create a light dome for TG2, but wasn't impressed with the results. It might have been due to it competing with GI, but I'll need to go back and verify.
Its just hard when these rendertimes take hours for a simple check...
I think the soft image .tgc could be used after you get your image all touched up and ready for the final render. When its ready, just delete the single sun and load the .tgc
You just need to make sure the core sun in the tgc matches your original sun's position (preferrably vice versa), or the lighting in your scene will change.
I built both off of the standard sun position. I don't know of any way to easily change their position values without doing it manually.
...and it's awesome. By the way.
Quote from: moodflow on July 03, 2007, 08:25:17 PM
I think the soft image .tgc could be used after you get your image all touched up and ready for the final render. When its ready, just delete the single sun and load the .tgc
You just need to make sure the core sun in the tgc matches your original sun's position (preferrably vice versa), or the lighting in your scene will change.
I built both off of the standard sun position. I don't know of any way to easily change their position values without doing it manually.
The lightdomes I used in Bryce had soft shadows turned on ,-) (Example: external Link (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/59039388/))
The caclulations could be made using an 'Excel'-sheet and saving this as a text file. I am not that much into Excel but think that it could work.
Volker Harun
What do you mean, Volker? Sorry I'm not following your understanding.
Hi Calico!
The TGD- or Clip-file are textfiles which contain the coordinates of the sun(s).
I was thinking of a program that calculates the coordinates of the soft-shadow-suns when changing the coordinates of the main-sun. And this program should work with those XML-files TG2TP works with.
My first idea was using a datasheet program like Excel or Ooo-Calc. They are capable of using text and numbers.
Right. I'm working on a program now that can create a TGC for something else, but doing this sounds intriguing and beyond me at the same time. I'm sure it isn't (beyond me), but needs some thought. Are you saying we could do something to the TGD during the render or we could affect the TGD before render? This is the best I can do in a forum like this - ask questions one or two at a time. I'd like to see something come from this.
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 04, 2007, 01:17:11 PM
Hi Calico!
The TGD- or Clip-file are textfiles which contain the coordinates of the sun(s).
I was thinking of a program that calculates the coordinates of the soft-shadow-suns when changing the coordinates of the main-sun. And this program should work with those XML-files TG2TP works with.
My first idea was using a datasheet program like Excel or Ooo-Calc. They are capable of using text and numbers.
Just as moodflow has suggested - create the render with that single sun. When atmospherics and lighting are fine, then replace the sun with the recalculated soft-shadow-clip. Then starting the render.
Changing the tgd during the render ... I had some fummy results when doing this ... at least they were non consistant renders ;D
,-) Volker
I've used moodflow's sun clips and found this very useful. The rendering time is somewhat long and is the basic deterrent for me from using these all the time.
A testrender I made yesterday with the purpose of testing some XFrog-plants' texturing and translucency gave a very promising render - the only point that was distracting were those harsh shadows.
I'll be off the weekend after and 'll run that 8hour thingy with soft shadows.
Volker
There are two versions. One is more intensive, and hence much longer render times, than the other. Perhaps moodflow can say more...
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 06, 2007, 08:56:40 AM
A testrender I made yesterday with the purpose of testing some XFrog-plants' texturing and translucency gave a very promising render - the only point that was distracting were those harsh shadows.
I'll be off the weekend after and 'll run that 8hour thingy with soft shadows.
Volker
The smaller version (the NOT-huge) is fair enough for renders with random surfaces.
The Huge-version should only be used when the shadow meets a flat portion of surface (or a closeup).
I am going to use the lite-version ;D ;D ;D
A minor update as my patience is not well trained ;)
The two attached images are:
1. A downsized and sharpened testrender with a single sun yesterday
2. A screenshot of a running render with the Lite-versions of moodflow's unvaluable softshadow-clip
You might see the difference of the shadows on the ground. And that the tree look less plastified is a bit obvious.
This is still just some play-around to get some decent plants - some overcast will be needed to satisfy me. But ...
The lighting is an improvement. An increase, a benefit!
Rendertimes of the first image (1024x768px - Testrender [please do not hit me ;)]) were 8.5 hours
The running render (800x600px) did not reach the 5.5 hours yet and I'll doubt that it will take longer than 8 hours in total. Which would be a time factor of about 1.7 against a quality benifit multiplyer of at least 4 ;D
Give it a try!
Volker :) ;D ;)
Volker, the first image's background trees look better, more realistic. But, I prefer the harsher, more contrasty and seemingly clearer foreground trees on the first picture.
Nice work on those images Volker! The quality is WAY better on the soft shadows image, (but might need the sun strength brought up a bit as it appears slightly darker). I've recently found the soft shadow technique might require stronger lights, as there is more 'shadowing' in the image.
Anyway, I bet some of top TG2 images posted so far (for example Luc Bianco's and such) would look even better with the soft shadows implemented. In fact, I am rebuilding some of my "to render" scenes to feature that soft shadow lighting.
Great explanation on the lite versus huge .tgc files. You explained it perfectly. That is exactly why I made 2 separate clip files.
Very nice results, Volker!
Calico, the problem with those distant trees is that they'll cause a noise pattern which increases with distance and density.
I bet that this noise is reduced by the softer look.
The matter of realsim is very subjective I guess. It depends on where you live and the place's climate.
Another subjective point is that I would prefer the foreground trees even softer ;D
Moodflow, I agree - I would rerender quite a bunch of my old files if they'd exist (dataloss after deleting a backup ;D)
Attached is the finished render with curves to brighten it a bit up.
OB: Merci - I hope you enjoyed your trip :)
Yes, yes. This is much more realistic.
This is great, but I think you should put some clouds in there.
On a clear day like that the shadows are pretty sharp.
Sjefen, these were my thoughts.
The light scattering due to overcast is not that strong on objects like I wish it were.
Another point might be that my AA-settings were quite low as always. A very silent voice in my head tells me but that AA will not work that good on objects ... wait and see.
I kill that overcast-heavy haze render now as it is not promising and'll go for AA.
Volker
Volker,
The finished image looks great!
I'll post some of mine once they are done.
Great work Volker, the leaves look fantastic!
heading in the right direction...
Good job, Volker.
This subject has been covered extensively. Nothing in this post is new, concerning soft light. But, I had to experiment with some of the lighting options myself just to see first-hand what effect they produced. Then, since I had the results, I thought I might as well post them.
http://www.higherworld.com/lighting/ (http://www.higherworld.com/lighting/)
Nice work Digidon!
Soft shadows via diffuse light (using a light dome):
This would simulate more of an overcast day. It has more of that "image based lighting" look to it, though still more work to do.
The rendertimes go sky-high on these, even more than I expected, but the results are nice.
The results are pretty nice. Good work!
The result is wonderful - must be a huge setup.
The herbs on the second image look very convincing.
Great job, moodflow. Like both results. I hope we can have something simpler from Planetside though as well as faster render times with such lighting.
Quote from: calico on July 11, 2007, 09:09:09 AM
Great job, moodflow. Like both results. I hope we can have something simpler from Planetside though as well as faster render times with such lighting.
Agreed! :-)
Two images are linked that use the 8°-softlight setup.
Both use 4096² heightfields and quite the same amount of shaders.
(http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs17/300W/f/2007/198/b/7/Surfaces_I_by_Volker_Harun.jpg) (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/59993542/)
This one has normal atmospheric settings and the render took a bit less than 27 minutes (Q 0.75, AA3, GI 1/1)
(http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs16/300W/f/2007/198/5/f/Surfaces_II_by_Volker_Harun.jpg) (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/59996904/)
This one hase one 3D cloudlayer with ~60 samples (raytraced shadows turned on) and atmospheres was rendering with 75 samples. Else, the settings were the same as the render above. Rendertime was a bit less than 28 hours.
So my conlusion is: Use the softlight, but beware of the clouds ,-)
Volker Harun
Wow, Volker, beautiful results! I love both. Great terrain and wonderful perspective. The second one reminded me of LOTR immediately.
I have found clouds and special situations with the atmosphere tend to up the render times significantly. But, then again, the results from special effects with clouds and special atmospheric phenomenon tend to bring something extra. :)
Moodflow, your work is immeasurably useful. Can't wait until this side of TG2 takes off. With all of your knowledge, you'll be a wizard by then.
Quote from: moodflow on July 09, 2007, 09:43:19 PM
Soft shadows via diffuse light (using a light dome):
This would simulate more of an overcast day. It has more of that "image based lighting" look to it, though still more work to do.
The rendertimes go sky-high on these, even more than I expected, but the results are nice.
Quote from: calico on July 17, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
Moodflow, your work is immeasurably useful. Can't wait until this side of TG2 takes off. With all of your knowledge, you'll be a wizard by then.
Quote from: moodflow on July 09, 2007, 09:43:19 PM
Soft shadows via diffuse light (using a light dome):
This would simulate more of an overcast day. It has more of that "image based lighting" look to it, though still more work to do.
The rendertimes go sky-high on these, even more than I expected, but the results are nice.
Thanks Calico. I'm glad you guys have "seen the light" when it comes to soft shadows.
Not sure about the wizard part, but I am definitely excited about the possibilities. I have about 10 or so images completed that I am very excited about. But the render times have been too long, even without the soft shadows and such. So when multicore and network rendering become available, I think we'll start seeing some amazing stuff.
Aye, aye. When the render times decrease, we'll see much better renders.
Those are awesome renders, Volker! You definitely have a way with textures.
Hi Volker,
These are some nice scenes. Would you be willing to share the source files so that I can test them with TG2's soft shadows feature which is coming in the next update? (Yes, you did read that correctly :) )
I will post images and render time comparisons.
Matt
And so begins a string of Yippees! ;)
Matt/Volker,
This is great news.
Be sure to keep in mind there are 2 types of soft shadow workarounds. One is for faster renders, but less accuracy. The other is way more accurate, but takes longer to render, but with more realistic results.
It would be great to see how each version holds up against the true soft shadows code.
The clip files are attached for anyone who wants to try them.
They are both set at the standard sun position, heading 300 degrees, elevation 25 degrees. They are a pain to move, since you have to manually go in and change each sun parameter (I've done this a few times for some upcoming images). Overall, the results are very impressive (as seen in Volker's images), and especially if you have patience ;-).
Okay, the archive is uploading and should be available in 20 minutes. File Size is 24 MByte including textures (copyrighted by Mayang) and a heightfield.
I hope that it'll help: Download (http://www.missing-art.de/TSW/070713-Alpine.rar)
Volker (<--- being a bit ashamed of the simplness of this render ;) ;D )
Uplad is finished - the other scene will be uploaded later (back home).
Many thanks moodflow and Volker. I'll post back here when I have some comparisons.
Matt
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 19, 2007, 07:29:18 AM
Okay, the archive is uploading and should be available in 20 minutes. File Size is 24 MByte including textures (copyrighted by Mayang) and a heightfield.
I hope that it'll help: Download (http://www.missing-art.de/TSW/070713-Alpine.rar)
Volker (<--- being a bit ashamed of the simplness of this render ;) ;D )
Uplad is finished - the other scene will be uploaded later (back home).
No need to be ashamed. You have created some excellent work!
Hi Volker,
You're killing me with these 68 cloud samples ;) I can't see any noise at all, so why so many samples? Or is it like the old Head & Shoulders ad (UK): "Man: 'I didn't know you had noise!' Woman: 'I don't.' "
Matt
Hi Matt,
call it an obsession - I just love cloud samples :D
To be honest, I saw some noise in the atmospheres and pushed up both atmospheres' samples.
It was a very quick setup and I did not have time for serious test renders.
Volker
The second file is uploading - it is a bit smaller (maybe due to less cloud samples?) ,)
Downloadlink (http://www.missing-art.de/TSW/070714-Alpine.rar)
I beg everybody who checks this file not to hurt me - as it is very simple.
But well, it worked ;) :D ;D
Volker
The most effective setup for me - at the moment - is, using the 8° softlight at 300° and adding two fill lights. One at 60°, the other at 180° (using 45° elevation(?)) - each has strength of '1', all options (shadows, glow) are turned off.
It is a dream with plants ,-)
Here are two images rendered with Volker's project file. I disabled ray traced shadows on the clouds, but otherwise the scene is similar the image Volker posted.
Using moodflow's "8 degree" soft light setup using 21 suns, 10 hours 37 minutes:
[attachthumb=1]
Using built-in soft shadows with 9 shadow samples, 6 hours 20 minutes:
[attachthumb=2]
The soft shadow diameter was set to 32 degrees to approximate the diameter of the multiple sun setup.
Matt
Very nice tests here. They are nearly identical, except for the shortened render time of the built-in soft shadows. This is definitely going to bring TGTP to the next level.
Thanks Matt.
More about the above comparison. There are two reasons why this rendered faster using the built-in soft shadows. Firstly I only used 9 shadow samples, rather than 21 as in the multiple-sun setup. The built-in soft shadows are able to randomise the sample positions which means you don't need as many samples or suns to avoid steps in the shadow boundaries, so 9 samples are adequate for this scene. Second, the built-in soft shadows use less shadow samples when calculating the light falling on the clouds and atmosphere, because the quality reduction there is less noticeable. That optimisation is not possible if you use the multiple sun trick.
Because of the optimisations in soft shadows on the clouds, I expect that if I had enabled ray-traced shadows in the clouds the speed difference would be much greater.
Matt
The built-in soft shadow has a slightly greater amount of contrast, which I like. Something I learned quickly in black & white photography is that a little more contrast is better and portrays the reality of the scene better. So this is much better.
Will this built-in soft shadow be available in the next update or will we need to wait a bit for a more complete package?
Calico,
Yep, the soft shadows are ready to go. This option will appear in the next update, in the Sunlight node and in the Light Source node.
I think the apparent increase in contrast is due to the sample positions not corresponding 100% to the 21 sun positions. I think the multi-sun setup might give similar results if the suns were slightly closer together. In fact, 32 degrees is an unrealistically large sun diameter ;) and although such soft shadows can be cast by haze and clouds they tend not to be as pronounced as in this scene. But it's still pleasing to the eye nevertheless.
Matt
Very nice ... very! So, shall I stop rendering until the next update? ,)
I like it. This new addition is a great step forward and an additional thing to look forward to using. Brilliant!
Here's a cropped render with 3 suns to simulate hazy sunshine. 0.5 degrees, 15 degrees, 45 degrees. The 0.5 degree sun is the direct sunlight, and the other softer suns are an attempt to simulate diffused sunlight coming from a high layer of cloud or haze.
Theoretically this hazy sunlight could be calculated by the GI, but very high quality settings would be needed to achieve this.
[attachthumb=#]
Matt
Very nice effect, Matt - now you should add an output that can be connected to single groups. (only having an effect on terrain, importet objects ,-) ) :D
Haroon suggested posting this here so it's his fault ;-)
I've created a spread-sheet for the soft shadows clip-file; makes it a bit easier to calculate the Heading and Elevation values for all the suns when moving the 'Main Sun'.
Nothing fancy really, just type the values of the Heading and Elevation of the Main Sun in and the values for the other suns will change accordingly. It has two other calculators for a more horizontal and a more vertical oriented configuration too.
Wish I knew how to automatically adjust the data in the clip file...
I've modified the 8° Softshadow to become a single 16° setup. I deleted all thos lights that have a distance of 8° to the main. It works very good and it is of course faster.
I changed each sun power to 0.3.
At least it works on that rough surface I have in my current scene ,-)
Volker Harun
Quote from: AndyWelder on July 21, 2007, 05:16:00 PM
Haroon suggested posting this here so it's his fault ;-)
I've created a spread-sheet for the soft shadows clip-file; makes it a bit easier to calculate the Heading and Elevation values for all the suns when moving the 'Main Sun'.
Nothing fancy really, just type the values of the Heading and Elevation of the Main Sun in and the values for the other suns will change accordingly. It has two other calculators for a more horizontal and a more vertical oriented configuration too.
Wish I knew how to automatically adjust the data in the clip file...
Andy,
How do we use this file? I tried opening it with a few different apps, but no luck.
Many thanks...
You might need WinZip or Winrar :D :D :D
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 25, 2007, 10:20:03 AM
You might need WinZip or Winrar :D :D :D
;D Well I did try that, but now there is a .ods file... which is quite "od".
OpenOffice, StarOffice ... ,)
AH! I'll definitely take a look then.
Thanks Volker!
@ moodflow: It's a zipped .ODS (OpenOffice spread-sheet) and MS Excell should be able to read it.
Edit: Thanks Volker, for the swift explanation! :)
Yea I tried that a few days ago, but, MS Excel - she no like it. I'll try the open office when I get home to a more forgiving PC.
here's a question for the solons of tg2 lighting :D
i don't own the deep, animatable version...yet. i know you can add a "null" to your tg2 scene, but am unaware of tg2's animation capabilities. specifically, can tg2 parent other elements of the scene to a null?
here's why i'm asking here: if the above were true, and using tg2's motion blur one could parent even less lights to a null and simply rotate the null, repeating every frame, thus providing blurred ambient shadows with a lesser render hit.
i've tested the 8deg rig provided earlier, and it works great! thx for sharing your hard work. just thinking out loud how to reduce render times, and less ambient lights would help in this regard.
any thoughts?
I don't believe you can parent objects in this way right now. The upcoming soft shadow feature should be about the most optimized way to get this effect in any case, so it may be best just to wait for that rather than trying to come up with more workarounds.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on July 26, 2007, 05:01:53 PM
I don't believe you can parent objects in this way right now. The upcoming soft shadow feature should be about the most optimized way to get this effect in any case, so it may be best just to wait for that rather than trying to come up with more workarounds.
- Oshyan
cool, thx for that oshyan.
are you able to comment on the general notion of parenting? the use of nulls in a parented hierarchy in 3d animation is widespread ayk, and this might be very attractive to prospective customers.
I don't have any specific knowledge of plans for parenting abilities, but I agree it makes sense to implement as it is a widely used and very handy feature. I believe the inclusion of the null object in itself is some indication that things may be headed there in the future.
- Oshyan