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General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: j meyer on June 24, 2013, 11:35:00 am

Title: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: j meyer on June 24, 2013, 11:35:00 am
Just came across a link to this and thought some of you might be interested.
http://algorithmicbotany.org/virtual_laboratory/
Seems to be for the mathematically oriented
http://algorithmicbotany.org/lstudio/whatis.html
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: AP on June 24, 2013, 11:52:52 am
Yes, i tried that software last night. It went right over my head. I had no idea what i was doing.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 25, 2013, 11:41:26 am
Has anyone been able to try that ios app? That looks amazing. It it possible to run ios apps on OSX. You need the software to do it. I haven't tried yet. I've tried the vlab on Linux and although I will be able to get it to work there are some problems finding libraries that I'll have to solve. I tried it on OSX but I don't think I'm seeing the whole app due to libraries needed. I was able to tweak some thing and see the results. It actually looks very powerful but user friendliness could be another question.

I've tried various tree methods. Arbaro is usable. Blender has a tree addon but it's not nearly as good as Arbaro. It does create an entire armature to animate the trees but too much hassle.

Another way to go is using particle systems. I haven't tried this yet but in Modo there is a potential way because you can effect particle systems with mesh and you can interactively sculpt the particle systems via this mesh. In theory it should be possible to quickly build a tree and have leaves as particles that can be easily edited by sculpting the branches with a brush.

As for Plant Factory, I think that's a total rip off. There are ways and means in other apps to do things. It's just a question of finding the best app and method. It will involve some kind of particle system or arraying. Tree Factory will be almost in the same price league as high end apps like Modo. That's utterly ludicrous and E-on are a joke. There's no way I'd buy software from that company.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 25, 2013, 12:01:20 pm
Also, I'm pretty convinced that Modo beats Vue hands down now for landscape stuff. 701 can deal with extremely large scenes and has various ways to do things via particles, arrays and physics. The renderer is vastly superior to Vue's. You can do clouds as well. The problem is mesh content. I'm not so keen on Modo for creating that. It's creatively weak so other apps are needed. Blender and Wings are good. Small plants will be a piece of cake. It's big trees with thousands of leaves that gets more difficult.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 25, 2013, 12:22:13 pm
Here's some trees from that TreeSketch:

http://forums.luxology.com/topic.aspx?f=4&t=65719

The trees in this were done with TreeSketch. Ha ha, Plant Factory, what a joke:

http://vimeo.com/38591304
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 25, 2013, 04:30:36 pm
Here are some examples:

http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2011/08/treesketch2-ipad-lightwave-3d/
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 25, 2013, 05:32:10 pm
So according to that link, all the plants in this image are from the free soft mentioned above?
[attach=1]

Well that is rather nice looking. Going to have to look into this now! Not sure how its going to make me feel if its better than TPF as you suggest.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on June 25, 2013, 05:49:57 pm
It was updated recently also.................wish I had an ipad.  ::)
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 25, 2013, 05:56:00 pm
Ahh, yeah. I don't have an I pad. I need to look at these programs that allow you to run smart apps on a desktop.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on June 25, 2013, 07:21:54 pm
I have an iPad and have started playing with the app. It is an amazing app. As a modeling beginner I have a lot to learn, but will try and make some trees to share

Folder
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 25, 2013, 07:52:36 pm
Folder, and everyone.
Please also share some screen pics and opinions on the modeler. Critiqu of qualtiy + ease of use. Thoughts on getting models from ipad to desk top...

Who knows, maybe this will be the best excuse I could ever find to buy an ipad (new or used). Because I still say, dang, its pretty.  ;)

No really, whats the real worth of this app? Please tell.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: Dune on June 26, 2013, 02:49:34 am
So there's no Treesketch for Windows? Too bad.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 27, 2013, 01:32:50 am
I haven't got around to this yet but can't you use ipad apps on OSX by installing Xcode? I was about to download it but I would have to use my Mini and not my Macbook since the mini is latest OSX.

I tried the other Vlab app on that page but the OSX version. That's tedious totally beyond usability but I've seen Linux screenshots that look a bit better. I still haven't tried to get it to work but I think is has more GUI. There is no usable mesh format output though. I got the general idea of how it builds the plants. The procedures behind all those apps on that site, including the ipad one, is obviously the same and it's brilliant. Totally tragic that the usable UI version is ipad only. Do they realise how fantastic that app is? Why the hell is it free? It actually seems to do the same basic thing as Plant Factory in terms of the geometry.

What's great about Treesketch is that you can totally shape the tree really easily so you could design it very well for a specific environment.

You want nice simple geometry with no branch beginnings showing (usually the geometry is cones) and you want to be able manipulate it by hand and have all the tropism editing etc. Textures aren't so important. You can sort that in another app but you want leaves to be handled in certain ways to later edit i.e. each leaf as a single UV for example. It looks to me like Treesketch does all that.

There is an ivy generator in Blender. I haven't tested it yet but it looks quite cool. It "grows" ivy around a mesh. Blender tree generator doesn't cut it though. Not even nearly as good as Arbaro. Arbaro is all that is good either free or cheap but Treesketch looks much better.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 27, 2013, 04:19:17 am
Tree sketch tuts and papers: http://algorithmicbotany.org/TreeSketch/

Home: http://algorithmicbotany.org

this is why its free : "Welcome to Algorithmic Botany, the website of the Biological Modeling and Visualization research group in the Department of Computer Science at the University of Calgary."

Research
http://algorithmicbotany.org/research/

Paper: http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/TreeSketch.SBM2012.html
http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/

Im going to write them and see what there plans for tree sketch are.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 27, 2013, 04:21:07 am
@Efflux

The IvyGen in blender is the same as the IvyGen discussed in depth in these forums.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 27, 2013, 06:52:24 am
I just watched the tuts for Tree sketch. Unbelievable! Have you guys looked at this yet? Its really quite amazing!
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: rcallicotte on June 27, 2013, 08:52:49 am
Thanks j meyer.  Checking it out now.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on June 27, 2013, 08:55:58 am
Some images tuts and info/discussion

http://www.ronenbekerman.com/forums/attachments/landscape-vegetation/6106d1322052093-treesketch-2-0-treesketch_testkizo.jpg

http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2011/08/treesketch2-ipad-lightwave-3d/


Yeah! thanks J. And Efflux for pointing out the bit about Sketch. The other parts in the OP seemed too complex. Same thing bad UI? Or all together different?
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 28, 2013, 01:02:25 am
I think the tech behind how the trees get built is the same across all those apps. I managed to play enough to see how vlab works but it's totally unusable from a UI stand point. You can see the results and it's extremely good and very advanced. There is no mesh output in any standard usable for other apps format though. It's a real shame there isn't a usable UI apart from TreeSketch.

Also, as far as I know Xcode on OSX can run ipad apps but only from source code so that angle is dead unless anyone knows of some kind of ipad emulator.

I find all this a bit sad. Why is this only in the app store for free so you have to shell out to Apple for an ipad? They could build a basic desktop app and sell the thing without the need for Apple involvement. It wouldn't even have to nearly as fancy as Treesketch just usable.

Also, the way vlab constructs the trees is so like Plant Factory that it makes me wonder where Plant Factory came from. Shaping of leaves etc. it's all the same.

Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on June 28, 2013, 01:22:24 am
Take a look at this page. This seems to be in vlab:

http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/

I can't find a screenshot I found before where vlab had edit windows for stuff. It seems you can define your own edit functions for windows by adding data to text files. I've trashed my Linux system by screwing up the bootloader at the moment so can't try the Linux version but I think it's similar across all three platforms. Only Treesketch is any good though because it has usable mesh output formats.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: inkydigit on June 28, 2013, 06:33:08 am
I downloaded treesketch onto my wife's iPad last night(shhh!) it really is very cool and has a lot of scope... I need to follow some tutorials though, but it is certainly is quick and easy to pick up and have fun, whilst generating some great looking trees!
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: efflux on March 20, 2014, 05:13:14 pm
I tried Treesketch because I now have an iPad Air. It is an awesome app. However, I bought the iPad to use Procreate. That's an awesome drawing app, pity about the iPad's totally chronic pen screen tech. As for iOS, well that's a bad joke compared to Android. I had to get a Samsung Galaxy Note 2014 2.3 GHz quad core in the end. The iPad is useless for drawing but the Samsung is an awesome drawing computer. I did find a use for the iPad in the end though so I'm keeping it. I'm running Lemur which is a music controller so I still have Treesketch. Not sure if I'll ultimately use it but it's very cool.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: Upon Infinity on March 20, 2014, 11:30:48 pm
Quote from: TheBadger on June 27, 2013, 04:19:17 am

this is why its free : "Welcome to Algorithmic Botany, the website of the Biological Modeling and Visualization research group in the Department of Computer Science at the University of Calgary."




In that case, it's not free.  I'M paying for it with taxes.  And you're welcome.   ;)
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on March 21, 2014, 02:46:05 pm
Still have not seen any TG renders with these models, that I know of.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 01, 2014, 04:04:33 pm
ihave tree sketch made a couple of trees. downloaded as obj only choice put the result into tg and the end product was a black outline with some highlights. do i have to convert the object somehow before putting it into tg3. not very experienced if you want i can upload the product from speedtree to the forum and let you guys try

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 01, 2014, 07:21:47 pm
If you are talking about Tree Sketch output I would like to see it...............there could be some simple map issues.  :)
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 01, 2014, 08:05:35 pm

Guys here are two files in dropbox trees made in sketch pad. i promise no virus - see what you can do with then if you can show me how and they meet expectations i will provide more
david


https://www.dropbox.com/s/hviaeqiqohcguge/Tree6-3-13_10_08_PM.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jaaon3tkrxc760p/Tree6-3-13_11_12_PM.zip?dl=0
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 01, 2014, 09:21:38 pm
Here you go................I ran them thru Poseray. I adjusted the values for spec.....way too high. This is just a quickie at medium quality and AA.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 01, 2014, 10:55:15 pm
do you think these are good enough quality for tg. i have never used poseray. so can you provide some steps

thanks

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: archonforest on October 02, 2014, 03:13:51 am
Quote from: yossam on October 01, 2014, 09:21:38 pm
Here you go................I ran them thru Poseray. I adjusted the values for spec.....way too high. This is just a quickie at medium quality and AA.

Wow, looks pretty good!
It should be on PC too... :(
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on October 02, 2014, 03:48:40 am
Thanks for posting this Folder!
They look pretty good to me. Maybe you don't want to call them heros, but they sure look good enough to do everything else... Plus they are free, not counting buying an ipad.

How much detail can you get in that app? Displaced bark? Fruit? Your image looks like the branches can get pretty varied.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 02, 2014, 04:25:34 am
my pleasure you guys have given me so much . here are vids on tposted. ihe program and it does have fruit. i have mo modeling experience but tree sketch seems easier than many other programs. there a lot of presets made and i can provide them. as i said last post i do not know how to improve them in poserray so they are usable. Yossam did a fine job on the two i  posted if you want me to just drop-box them with poser-ray improvement let me  kmnow

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 02, 2014, 04:29:07 am
http://algorithmicbotany.org/TreeSketch/

forgot to give the url for the vids  one of the vids shows the presets avialable

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: otakar on October 02, 2014, 12:50:30 pm
Yeah, definitely good for mid-distance I'd say! How much irregularity can you model in Tree Sketch? What is always needed are trees that are less than symmetrical. Unfortunately, I am not an Apple product owner, so can't have a look for myself.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 02, 2014, 02:00:12 pm
Some closer renders...............same settings as before. I think it all depends on the quality of the maps, especially the bark. But definitely good for midrange.  :)
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 02, 2014, 02:12:31 pm
otakar 
look at the links i supplied you can model any irregularity in terms of shape as to barks other and such other than supplied
will post some more trees later today off to dr office. as i mentioned before i am junable to do more than supply the raw obj file. Yossam has been kind enough to modify them 

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 02, 2014, 02:48:15 pm
Actually folder you don't have to use poseray to get them in Terragen. I just tried it..........the model (as you supplied it) will load correctly with all maps applied except the opacity image. Simply load the leaf image in the opacity slot and check use alpha.  ;D
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 03, 2014, 01:44:59 am
https://www.dropbox.com/s/in1952ildjuhbnt/Tree6-4-13_3_07_PM.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyemn9thw2cu1zz/Tree10-2-14_11_25_PM.zip?dl=0


here are two more straight off the ipad not put thru poseray when i tried to load the leaf only the .mtl and .obj files showed up. must have done something wrong

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: Dune on October 03, 2014, 03:36:15 am
They're not bad at all, but the bark texture is a normal map, so it seems, and the normal map is black and can't be read. But you can switch them for proper textures in TG (use any fitting tiled bark texture). The leaves work ok, just copy the png to the opacity tab and check alpha. Raise translucency and set reflectivity to 0.1 or so.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 03, 2014, 03:53:40 am
 yossam

what scale settings are you using to display the trees?
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 03, 2014, 06:58:29 am
here are some images of one of the preset trees

david
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 03, 2014, 07:02:30 am
forgot these
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 03, 2014, 12:32:55 pm
folder,


The scale hasn't changed...............it loads, I frame the tree in the scene using the camera, and hit render.  :)
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: j meyer on October 03, 2014, 12:48:10 pm
Had a look at the two trees that were provided first.
I can confirm that you just have to add the leaves png
to the opacity slot and check use alpha to get them to
work.
But specularity should be turned down or better completely
off since the leaves are twigs rather and you get terrible
highlights otherwise.
The geometry of the one with the thick trunk is awful,
huge gaps between the segments of the trunk.
Not fixable without lots of work.
The size is totally off also,much too large.
And the pngs with the N at the end of the name
are somehow broken.Won't open in PShop.
Lots of intersections,too.

Is it possible to increase the poly count of the trunk
and branches inside the app or are there any export
quality settings or so?
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 03, 2014, 01:32:07 pm
Here are the last two.................
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: folder on October 03, 2014, 02:12:45 pm
hi all

j.meyer - here is what there is under the heading 3d geometry setting

fbx
obj
export textures

2d vector formats
svg
postscript

you can do things like change branch width, leaf color variation .no ability to affect internal settings unless noted above
should i continue to post the presets and make new ones

j meyer - been looking for the truck chronor used where is it search under your name failed to find it
david

Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: j meyer on October 03, 2014, 02:25:42 pm
Quote from: folder on October 03, 2014, 02:12:45 pm
.....
should i continue to post the presets and make new ones

........


As long as the others like them,why not?


As for the truck look through this thread
http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,17933.msg173659.html#msg173659
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: otakar on October 10, 2014, 12:53:56 pm
I just watched the promo movie at http://vimeo.com/68195050. How about a tree shaped like this: http://mjfimages.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/surveyors_ridge_7-16-11_50d_004.jpg?w=816&h=540 . Doable in Tree Sketch? Also, when populating leaves, is there an option to populate a specific area only rather than the whole tree (e.g. sick trees)?
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: yossam on October 10, 2014, 06:25:26 pm
You can always use a PF in the opacity function slot to decimate the leaves.  ;D
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: Dune on October 11, 2014, 02:59:53 am
Or a distance shader or distribution shader to cut of the top.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: otakar on October 13, 2014, 02:42:24 pm
Yossam and Ulco, really? That works? Actually makes sense and I don't know how I missed that. Will have to experiment. Thanks!
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: Dune on October 14, 2014, 09:51:08 am
Everything that is black---white can have an impact, if you feed something with it, like displacement, or opacity. You can, e.g., have trees lose their leaves at certain heights. But do use a transform shader to set the scale to world scale.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: jaf on October 14, 2014, 12:03:17 pm
Has anyone here tried  Archipelis?  ( http://www.archipelis.com/home.php )  I was wondering how well it would work to get some basic plant/tree shapes to further work over in a basic modeling or sculpting program.  Probably too many polys.

I tried the demo but it is so crippled it's useless for testing.  It's cheap, so if anyone has the full version, maybe they could test it.  :D
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on October 14, 2014, 04:05:24 pm
Quote from: jaf on October 14, 2014, 12:03:17 pm
Has anyone here tried  Archipelis?  ( http://www.archipelis.com/home.php )  I was wondering how well it would work to get some basic plant/tree shapes to further work over in a basic modeling or sculpting program.  Probably too many polys.

I tried the demo but it is so crippled it's useless for testing.  It's cheap, so if anyone has the full version, maybe they could test it.  :D


Well this looks like a great way to get mock-ups! Based on what I saw though, I don't think you would want to make something like a tree.

actually, in a TG context, this looks like a fast way to get real 3D billboards. Which is kinda contrary, but I think makes sense.
I would like a model to import into my modeling app so I can look at the topology.

It is very cheap! But would like to know more than their website is showing first.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: jaf on October 14, 2014, 10:37:01 pm
Yes, a tree might be a bit much.  However, something like a saguaro cactus from a photo, to get a basic 3D shape in obj form, to then detail in 3D-Coat or Zbrush -- might work pretty good.  But the darn demo won't save, is limited to something like 4 minutes of work -- or session time (don't remember exactly, but it was a short time) four textures, etc. 

I really don't understand why some developers cripple their demos to the point you can't really test them (especially cheap products that would sell rather easily if they "work".)  I mean this isn't an application that creates an end product (or if it is, you can't tell if it is because you can't output the model to render out and see.)  What it tells me is if they did let you test it properly, it wouldn't be up to par and hence the low price.  So I was hoping someone had tried the full version.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: TheBadger on October 14, 2014, 11:37:15 pm
Well if you search youtube there are a number of videos of people who don't know what they are doing using them in animations. They look really bad. But I suspect that someone who knows what they are doing could make it look good.

I agree with all you wrote. Its one of those things I will save a link to and keep in the back of my mind. May turn out to have some value, maybe not. Eventually we will know for sure.
Title: Re: Another Plant Modeling App
Post by: bobbystahr on October 20, 2014, 10:07:31 am
Quote from: folder on October 01, 2014, 04:04:33 pm
ihave tree sketch made a couple of trees. downloaded as obj only choice put the result into tg and the end product was a black outline with some highlights. do i have to convert the object somehow before putting it into tg3. not very experienced if you want i can upload the product from speedtree to the forum and let you guys try

david


I run every thing through PoseRay a free app that outputs the flavour of .obj TG eats....