Planetside Software Forums

General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: yossam on November 03, 2013, 04:41:14 am

Title: Mars 3D
Post by: yossam on November 03, 2013, 04:41:14 am
http://news.yahoo.com/spectacular-3d-mars-video-brings-red-planet-life-230347365.html (http://news.yahoo.com/spectacular-3d-mars-video-brings-red-planet-life-230347365.html)
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 06, 2013, 10:53:08 pm
Its cool. But I swear there is mars stuff in these forums that is even better. I would like to know why I don't see the stuff that gets posted here on the NASA site or in the news when they talk about mars and other worlds (especially exoplanets).
Mamut's stuff for example. And that project Matt posted, among others too.

HArd to believe people still don't know about what goes on around here. On a side note, NASA animations usually look really fake, but DandelO does some pretty convincing stuff, so much so, that if NASA said it was their video, most people would believe it... YOu know what I mean?
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Dune on November 07, 2013, 02:41:37 am
I agree with Michael that it seems such a small group that actually uses TG3. Only a handful of people posting, really disappointing. Or people think they're not good enough to post? Or too good? Or just don't bother. Too bad, as I think with discussions about problems and features and sample work, TG3 can grow to enormous heights.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: j meyer on November 07, 2013, 11:38:48 am
Maybe there are other aspects to consider beside that too bad or too good
stuff.Think about restricting elementary to buying customers for instance.
In the earlier times things gott shared,nowadays you can read things like
oh I'm not allowed to talk about it,because it belongs to X,but you can
buy it too and use and then you are not allowed to talk about it either.
That could piss some people off methinks.
Looking at the times certain things happened there might indeed be
correlation.
Excuse me please,it was just one time too much I read the being intimidated
arguments and I'm really sick of that.
I apologize,if someone got too offended by me.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 08, 2013, 09:13:50 pm
QuoteI agree with Michael that it seems such a small group that actually uses TG3. Only a handful of people posting

Im not sure I get you. Is there a separation between T2 and T3? Still just one forum right? I remember some mention of a possible re-do of this forum, or some changes? Or do you just mean there has not been much posting at all as of late?
I have been busy as a slave. Probably others are too now?

@j
Hi, Im not sure I got what you are saying
Quote"Think about restricting elementary to buying customers for instance.
In the earlier times things gott shared,nowadays you can read things like
oh I'm not allowed to talk about it,because it belongs to X,but you can
buy it too and use and then you are not allowed to talk about it either.
That could piss some people off methinks."

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Dune on November 09, 2013, 04:14:02 am
I mean in general, Michael; just not many people sharing what they made with TG (2 or 3). And I don't believe everything is so very hush hush that a little image can't be posted, just to encourage enthusiasm or show what's possible. My work is often commissioned, and I rarely put really finished work in big resolution here, but some WIP's do not jeopardize the commission at all.

And what do you mean here, Jochen?
QuoteExcuse me please,it was just one time too much I read the being intimidated
arguments and I'm really sick of that.
I apologize,if someone got too offended by me.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: j meyer on November 09, 2013, 12:08:01 pm
Ulco - that refers to people thinking they (their work) not being good enough
         to post or too good and so on.And that being an explanation as to why
         there are less people posting.From my point of view that's an over-
         symplification.
         And the offended part should be relatively clear,no?
         Otherwise please look at what I'll say to Michael below.

Michael - Sorry,there should have been an "info" between elementary and to.
             When you look at the first years of this community there was a really great
             sharing spirit and we worked things out together and had lots of fun.
             When new guys came along they got help to get them started.
             This is still true,at least partly,for the community as it is now!
             But over the last few years I've noticed more and more cases like what
             I tried to hint at in my previous post.
             Someone comes here sees a pic someone else has posted and says (e.g.)
             Hey these clouds are great,just what I need for my stuff,could you please
             explain how to achieve that.
             And gets an answer like:Oh,I'm sorry this is done with a file from xyxy and
             I can't talk about it,but you can buy it for little money at YXYX store and
             see for your self.
             So that guy can also buy the file and use it,but can't discuss the technique
             here on the forums.
             This is restricting basic information to paying customers.
             And that means that info is taken out of the discussion on these forums!
             Coincidence or not at that time some members began to stop posting here.
             I can't say more without (seemingly) accusing beloved forum heroes and
             that's definitely not my intention.
             And that's why I apologized.

Of course there are more aspects interlacing each other,but I don't want to write a
dissertation on that.

         
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: dandelO on November 09, 2013, 05:59:04 pm
J Meyer, I'd click 'like', or '+1', or whatever other equivalent there is, on that post, agreed.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 09, 2013, 10:31:05 pm
Thanks for clarifying guys!

@J, I also agree strongly with the basic spirit of your last post.
On one hand, I do love that there are vendors providing services. And I like those people and their products. But on the other hand, I am here to learn about how to use the software my self. And would always prefer to make anything I needed on my own *if I can*.
But your post seems to suggest that, because people started making money on *finished* planets/TGDs, that others who were giving information freely stopped sharing as a result? This is a problem indeed.

Because unless you are already an advanced user to begin with, buying a finished TGD file will not teach you anything, and may in fact discourage you from even trying when you see the complex node trees.

It also sets up a culture of hoarding info, since information then becomes valuable monetarily rather than intellectually.

If any of this is true, it is in large part planetside's fault, since they do not provide basic learning materials. Of course they will tell us that, that is because they do not have the personnel to devote to such a large undertaking as building up a set of quality tuts and related materials. And while that explanation is honest and valid, it does not make me feel better.

I have openly gone through the learning process here. Often I found it humbling. But it worked, and it was always more fun to fail in front of you guys, than to succeed in privet.

I do hope that the people who love to develop ideas in public will come back. I have lots more I want to try. And the simple fact is that without planetside providing learning materials, and without open learning in these forums, the software basically becomes worthless for most people.

On the other hand
There does seem to be an ebb and flow to things here. If you read back through the forum pages, its clear that there are long periods of constant contribution, and then periods of quiet. So who knows what will come next?

@ Ulco,
I wish that people who use this soft in films and TV would post more too. Chris posted the stuff from one of the films he worked on. I thought that was just cool. And the work was great too. IT just a lot of fun to see that stuff here. And of course, it invaluable from a learning perspective.


On a side note.
With respect to the OP, I believe martians would approve of this conversation.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Dune on November 10, 2013, 04:11:56 am
Maybe I stated it a bit simplified, but I was just trying to lure people into posting more stuff. Whoever and for whatever reason they don't, I just hope to see more. It's getting a bit boring, and I sometimes wonder why I still put my renders up for scrutiny and crits.

And about the sharing part; in the beginning there were more novelties, I'd say, that needed work together to figure out. And a lot of that stuff can be found on the older threads. But I can also imagine that if you spend hours, days, weeks on something specific, you don't just dump it 'ready to render' for grabs. Share with people who also share, okay, or just ask a little reward. Or explain in basic terms, and let the artist take it from there. After all, TG is about understanding the basics and elaborating on that, not just applying 'tools' that were thought out by others.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Oshyan on November 13, 2013, 07:11:15 pm
I just want to say I definitely see and feel similarly about many of the problems being discussed here. But I'm not sure that the source of these issues is at all clear for anyone.

I would never argue that the *incomplete* documentation (there is a good amount of docs, ever-expanding, but it is certainly not complete) is not a problem, however I think if you look at other software where this is not a factor and their respective communities, you likely find no correlation between existence of good documentation and level of sharing of resources and knowledge. That at least has been my experience. I won't point to any specific examples, but I'm sure each of you is aware of others you can compare to. So this again is not to say that incomplete docs isn't a problem, rather that it is separate from the issue(s) being discussed here, in my view. We continue to work on the docs regardless, and again I want to encourage people to check back in the wiki for info on things they want to understand better as, even if it wasn't there last time, it may be there now. We do try to announce major documentation additions, too.

I would be interested to hear and discuss more thoughts on how this community can be enlivened and continue to thrive and grow. It definitely goes through ebbs and flows and we haven't found any foolproof methods for increasing activity, sharing in particular, but you can be assured that we are definitely interested in continuing to foster the community and we consider it one of our biggest assets. Judging by feedback from community members, especially those new to this forum and coming from other discussion groups, we do have a very good group here, even if it's not the largest or most active around.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 13, 2013, 09:07:47 pm
Hey Oshyan.

Don't really think there is too much more you can do, really. You already tolerate just about everything and everyone, and allow these forums to be as open and free as the node system in the soft.

The documents are important, I guess. But I always felt like the technical jargon and technical facts were more for users other than people like my self. I'm never going to benefit from them the way some do and will, though I do refer to them a good bit. For me, Tuts, and conversations in this forum are more useful.

QuoteI would be interested to hear and discuss more thoughts on how this community can be enlivened and continue to thrive and grow.

I always thought it would be great if some of the passion project makers and hobbyists from this community would get together with some of the same kinds of users from other soft forums. And do a open source short of some kind. Something like the blender community does. But where the whole thing is documented and ported to tuts by someone like geek at play or another free service provider. Just a 15 sec or 30 sec edited short. Where TG is a big part, but where we can really see it used as a partner with other tools... Pie in the sky though, as Something like that would be like herding cats ;D

Anyway, I would love to see more "TG + other", stuff here. Because I have officially excepted what you and others have told me from the start... I can't do it all in one soft  ;)

Lastly, I sure hope you and matt and jo never take any complaint I have ranted on, too personally. I only rant insainly because you let me. Also, I like the soft enough to say so.

One other thing I always thought would be fun, was a contest to see if TG users can trick the general public with their renders. Posting images in photo sites, as photos. Or even better, sending them to news outlets as photos. where anyone who gets a news outlet to post, print, publish, or show on TV, is a winner :o now thats fun... THe news is fake anyway ;)
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 13, 2013, 09:29:22 pm
... NEver mind! Thanks Geek!
http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,17218.0.html
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Oshyan on November 13, 2013, 09:46:45 pm
I'd like to do more contests actually, although it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario as getting a good amount of participation can be a challenge. The idea of trying to fool the public is also something I've had in mind for a long time but have never really gotten together (this was more as a private thing rather than official Planetside stuff, but it would definitely involve Terragen). We'll see about future contests; I think giving them a theme that's as accessible as possible would help, but it still needs to be unique and help lead to visually interesting work...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 13, 2013, 10:42:07 pm
Quote from: Oshyan on November 13, 2013, 09:46:45 pm
I'd like to do more contests actually, although it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario as getting a good amount of participation can be a challenge. The idea of trying to fool the public is also something I've had in mind for a long time but have never really gotten together (this was more as a private thing rather than official Planetside stuff, but it would definitely involve Terragen). We'll see about future contests; I think giving them a theme that's as accessible as possible would help, but it still needs to be unique and help lead to visually interesting work...

- Oshyan


Lets do the 'F%$K with the news' thing (unofficially, of course). This has my full support! Winners get bragging rights and the internets will sing songs for them, also many lulz.
Anyone who makes a major TV news Anchor look like an ass wins the lulz. Local TV gets half points.
Fooling a scientific, or environmental community gets full points. But making anyone on TV look stupid is top tier.

Printed publications are equal to TV due to the cost of printing a news paper or news magazine. But it has to be a national publication, or international.

Ok, now Im fully in on this, I just talked my self into it.
As a contest its great sport. And best of all, helping to reveal the news as fake is a public service.

We need a title...
"The Great 2014 foog-snagle"
"FoogSnagle 2014"
Dont know what foogsnagle is, cuz I just made it up. But I like it.
Anyway, I am open on the title. We can call it whatever anyone wants. Just as long as I see Wolf Blitzer or some other jerk talk for 10 minutes about how amazing a photo it is.

Also, if any of the political parties refer to the image as "evidence" in any argument (regardless of party or subject, or national government) Many more Lulz to the winner. Although, I dont really feel like making a politician look stupid is very sporting. It seems a little too much like kick boxing with a double amputee.
Nonetheless, let the chips fall where they may.

Getting someone at the UN, or getting the image included in a UN report, is half Lulz but double points. Just because the UN could not be any funnier than it is already.

Remember that the image must be regarded as a photo.

Fooling websites of a non government agency or news organization is 10 points each (photo sharing sites for example), but each week the render remains a point of discussion as a photo, gets an additional 15 points.

Lets develop this further.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 13, 2013, 11:08:18 pm
Participants are allowed to promote discussion of thier render in order to keep it in circulation by dissenting from commentors on any website you post a TG render to. Or on any forum that re-posts your render.

For example.
Commenter "A" says something like, "I like the composition, but you should have used a different apature/Fstop/lens/" and then makes a suggestion as to what would be better. THe contest participants may respond in a way that provokes continued discussion, but must lead the discussion back to the image. For example, a good responce to the above statement would be something like, "Yeah, thats a good idea. But don't you just love the subject/location?" And, "wouldn't you wan't to go there for vacation?"
Thus the fool is confirmed and the contest participant may earn an additional two points each time. and 1 more point for each time the original commentator again refers to the render as a photo.

revealing a successful render is only allowed in the TG community. All other reveals disqualify the participant.

Fooling any other CG community is 20 points. For example, posting a render as a source photo, and then another render as the "work" you were inspired to make from the photo; that is, your TG render.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Dune on November 14, 2013, 02:46:15 am
I don't think you can get these people to actually discuss 'just a photo' because it looks kind of special. There are real photo's around that you can hardly believe, and like discussed before in other threads, they would easily be considered CG, and commented upon as such.
It's a great idea, though, but very hard to make something that 1; looks like a photo (unless blurry and from a distance), and 2; is so strange that it's drawing attention. And then; who believes photo's? Everything can be modded believably (PS).

If you guys do take this further, I'll participate nonetheless  ;)
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 14, 2013, 03:58:06 am
^^Thats funny Ulco. Because I always considered the high point of this art to be recreating crappy photos shot by tourists on vacation. Blurry, out of focus, wrong exposure, lack of composition, balance, purpose, reason, so on so forth. Like how Picasso could paint like the masters but decided he would rather to paint disfigured hookers... sort of.

To take all this tech, all the knowledge, all the skill and time, and everything else, and make a video like it was shot on a cell phone in a park by a sales clerk on lunch break... Now this is super realism taken to the only possible conclusion, this is socially relevant commentary  ;D

Remember that DandelO just posted that video of the moon conspiracy stuff. It was good. But if he had taken his Lulz more seriously, he could have incited protests, congressional inquiries, public apologies... There is just so many possibilities when you convince internet weirdos that they know something no one else does. And then mix in politics and ratings.

But bla bla bla, my guess is that the big winner of this contest will be someone who does something very simple and clever, and just aims it very smartly at a the right crowed at the right time in the right way. No congressional inquiry necessary.

Remember, its not necessary to fool all the people all the time, just one asshole, once. And if that guy happens to have a TV show, well... Isn't that how politics works? I know the media puts on a show every 4 years here using the same tactics.

UFOs, Sasquatch, things like this could be fun. But like I said, the winner will more than likely be someone who comes up with something very simple. Something once we see it, we will all just know its perfect.

Here is something kinda crazy. Not quite UFOs and Sasquatch, but a lot of people were believing it at the time. Made the news... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE0Q904gtMI
There were technical mistakes that prove its a fake. But most people dont have a understanding whatsoever of digital forensics. But really, a thing is only absurd until you see it with your own eyes. And in the end, people want to believe.

By the way, didn't someone from this community do a render of an eclipse that got picked up as a real photo and redistributed as such? Everyone was saying WOW! What a great photo. No one thought about photoshop. And thats because most people know that most PS work out there is crap. I have seen a lot of great matt paintings made in PS. Only a few fooled me. But they fooled me pretty good. I questioned a lot I saw in the images, but I had thought the landscapes were real. Turned out the landscapes were the only "fake" part in the images.
My point is that everyone knows about PS, and lots know how to use it. And they can still be fooled. Everyone can. And thats kinda the point too.

How about that prank video DG posted a few weeks ago. The one where the team played a trick and made coffee drinkers think a girl had psychic powers? People believe what they see as long as you let them. They want it. Its just easier that way. People would rather believe the world is ending (2012) then face that they cant eve trust them selves.

Lastly,
If the world says reality is what we say it is, that man is only what he says he is, and that he can say whatever he wants. THen isn't this "contest" a comment on that? And is that not high art?

Its up to the contest participants to decide for them selves how deeply they want to probe the orifice of these questions. As for me, Im limited by my abilities with the soft :P But I have no doubt there are more than a few around here who could make this worth watching.

Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: dandelO on November 14, 2013, 10:23:58 am
The hardest thing to achieve here, I think, is to make your render appear as if shot from a camera. To take the 'perfectness' out of any 3d work is a skill and a talent in itself. A 'holiday snap' will have lens distortions, chromatic abberation, blurs, dust and scratches, flares, among any other 'defects', that a raw render will never match. Of course, you can build many of these things into a render in most 3d packages but making a cheap looking snapshot is very difficult, your renderer wants to draw everything perfectly.
For the recent NASA Moon animation shots I made(not the stills), I only used a render detail in TG of 0.25, I didn't want perfect detail for obvious reasons. Further ageing of the 'film' including focus, shake, scratches etc. were all done post-render. Motion blur was TG.
The Apollo 20 film is still live, btw. And hasn't yet been outed as a 3D render, except by me in a generic Youtube-type comment, it only takes the right set of eyes to happen on it and any video can go viral. I don't consider that a finished project, more an experiment still in progress.
I love the idea of tricking the masses but I think that making it a contest/point scoring activity would ultimately be a very complexed thing to manage, I more think that, for every piece you create should be built from Point A to Point Z with this goal in mind. Unless, of course, the point isn't photo realism.
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: Oshyan on November 14, 2013, 05:25:23 pm
To clarify, I wasn't suggesting a "pull one over on the news/broader Internet" type of contest. My "fake or photo" idea was more of a specific website where people could voluntarily challenge themselves, similar to an ongoing marketing campaign Autodesk has been quietly running for the past 10+ years: http://area.autodesk.com/fakeorfoto/

I'll leave it to you guys to organize and participate in crazy public stunts. :D

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 15, 2013, 02:59:42 am
snag·le: A snag that is happing by means of a non-existing problem with real or imagined consequences.

Can someone help? I seem to have snagled an existential problem.

foo·g : A digital poo that has happened or is happing now, or which may never have happened at all.

Ah man! I just stepped in a big pile of foog.

foog-snagle The act of being stuck in, or on, or by a foog, in the non-physical universe.

Ah shit man! Iv been foogsnagled.

Foogsnagle 2014 A contest of immense proportions, and even smaller dimensions. Coming soon.



I dont know guys. Either this is very funny or very stupid... Or maybe both. Then again, perhaps not one or the other. At any rate I say we do this.

We can figure out the rules soon enough.

Title: Re: Mars 3D
Post by: TheBadger on November 18, 2013, 02:59:29 am
Oshyan, your less aggressive way is good too. And Of course I would not want to suggest anyone going the path Im rooting for, needs to be as mean spirited as my previous posts  may have encouraged. But doesn't the clandestine effort sound like a bit more fun?  ;D

DandelO, I do agree.
Let us say then, that finished work need not be pure TG. That is, once a render is made, the render may be put through any and all beneficial post processes. So long as the work is based on a TG render.
And your right, a point system if nothing else would be too much work to keep track of. So lets think of something like a category system. For example, landscape and still life. But also pure render, post, and composite and so on.
And categories in judging success too. 

Multiple winners allowed. So rather then a winner takes all, more like a merit badge for all who achieve. A kind of running challenge.
Because really, shoulden't we all be able to do this at least once (fool people with our renders) even if realism is not our goal in life? Like I brought up before, the "great" artists in the modern age, could all paint like the old masters berfore they started painting like mental patients ;) ;D :P...nothing against the mentally ill. Heaven knows I could use a prescription about now.

So?