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Support => Terragen Support => Topic started by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 01:52:01 am

Title: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 01:52:01 am
Morning

Yesterday I was trying to do a final render of my scene and set resolution to 1585 x 1151 or so. I usually do my renders in small bits and then stich them back together. However this time when I made the first "row" it turned out that my final render will have dimensions of about 1280 x 850. ??? The size of the render window was set to 100%.

I'm not sure why is that but are there any settings in the render tab that can mess this up? Halp!
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Oshyan on March 31, 2014, 01:57:18 am
Nothing I can think of, unless you used Undo or something. And we've had no other reports of such things.

How are you saving the finished image? The render window being at 100% does *not* make the entire window the size of your render resolution...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 02:08:51 am
Oh... then I think this is the problem. So, what makes?

Sometimes when I do these small stiches I have to make a regular screenshot to save it, because the "save" button does not appear. :( Until now it worked just perfect. I thought of this solution due to memory issues that plague me in very complicated renders (right now I'm fighting with eleven populations).

Do you think changing the monitor resolution could help? In the render window I get something like "reduced size" but why since I don't want it? >:(
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Oshyan on March 31, 2014, 02:16:41 am
Never, ever use a screenshot! It is NOT accurate to the final render. If the Save button is not appearing, it's still finishing the render, and the screenshot will be even less accurate. It may be a bug, it may just be high render settings, or some slow component. But regardless using a screenshot doesn't really solve the problem, it's just a poor workaround.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 02:26:28 am
Well, how am I supposed to do it then? :P The save button does not appear under any circumstances long after the image in the preview window starts rendering - something TG would definitely do after the render is considered finished...

Once again - if I increase my monitor resolution is that going to help? Logically that would eliminate the need to "reduce size" as my render window puts it. :P
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Oshyan on March 31, 2014, 02:40:20 am
No, it won't help. The image in the preview is pretty much never what you want it to be. It's a preview.

You're saying "the save button does not appear long after the image in the preview *starts* rendering". Did you mean *stops* rendering?

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 02:56:16 am
No, no, see I meant the window on your working space (3d preview window?) the one above the node network view where you prepare the scene. Usually when you finish render it starts pre-rendering like rendering...10, rendering...20 etc. So, that happens after TG completes the stitch but I could wait forever for the "save" button to appear.

The largest image that I can think of I could do without this auto-reducing nonsense was 1385x915.

I can't see much difference between "screenshotted" and saved stiches. Really! ;)
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on March 31, 2014, 06:24:01 am
May I ask you, why you are stitching small crops together? I used to do this before I had purchased a license for the full version. I assume you are not using the free version, since you're starting a render at a resolution of 1585 x 1151, which is not possible with the test version as far as I remember?! Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, there might be something wrong with the scene if the "save" button doesn't appear.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on March 31, 2014, 06:38:05 am
Yes, I do use full version. Well, why did you do that? ;) I have to do it because when I try to render large areas of the would-be final render I get lots of errors like in the thread here:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,17719.msg171644.html#msg171644

When I do crop region and render smaller bits I get no errors and they render just as I want them to. Sadly, I have no choice.

What might be wrong with the scene itself in your opinion?
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on March 31, 2014, 07:52:03 am
Well actually I didn't render "crops" with the free version, but stitched some 800 px renders made with the free version together to get one single high resolution render. Which was a pain in the ass!

I have no idea what could be wrong with your file. Usually when a render is finished the buttons at the top of the render view window switch from "Pause/Stop" and "Rendering..." to "Render/Save" and "Finished rendering...".

You were talking about these render errors. I remember that I had those as well some time ago, but I can't recall exactly when at the moment. I'll have to look for this thread.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on March 31, 2014, 08:01:34 am
It was this thread:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8144.0

The final image was here:
http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,8182.msg87194.html#msg87194

Unfortunately I still don't know why these artifacts had appeared. As you can read I just used another render thread with almost identical settings like in the original one and everything worked fine. ???
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 01, 2014, 01:58:01 am
Courage and heart can overcome the machine...

Oshyan, it looks like you were wrong. Probably for the first time ever on this forum. ;) I actually changed my monitor resolution to the highest value (2048x1536 or so) and my render window showed up in exactly the size I planned for (1644x1196) without auto-reducing. As luck would have it the stubborn "save" button does not appear no matter what so I'll just stick to my crappy "print screen" technique thank you. ;D

Hannes, your solution as far as render errors are concerned, sadly, did not work. :( Guess I've just got way too much objects in the render for the program to work seamlessly.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Kadri on April 01, 2014, 02:19:24 am

Have you looked in the "Sequence/Output" tab in the render node for saving the images?
And there is another option in the Edit menu in the
"Preferences",  "File Saving" section for automatic render output and path option.
Not sure if this will help if the "Save" button doesn't appear.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Dune on April 01, 2014, 03:32:07 am
If the save button doesn't appear, it's probably not done yet, but you might have a look. I've had this a few years back, and think it might be memory related. I had lots of unrendered blocks then too.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Kadri on April 01, 2014, 04:03:31 am
Quote from: Dune on April 01, 2014, 03:32:07 am
If the save button doesn't appear, it's probably not done yet, but you might have a look. ...


I doubt it too Ulco. But just in case.

On the other thread i saw that you use Bucket sizes with 64.
Not sure if you tried them because of your problems but in my own tests
with different scenes render times don't go faster after 128 or so.
And actually with Bucket sizes of 64 render times takes longer.


Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 01, 2014, 04:13:21 am
No such luck Ulco. It does finish the render crop, cause I can tell what should be there and how, but then the 3d preview in the work space starts loading up (obviously, something TG is doing when not rendering. :P) It happens to me from time to time, only in very complicated renders. This is definitely memory-related issue and that is one hell of a render - eleven populations (7000 instances each on average), five individual DAZ models, four other models, lots of water, atmo at 32 samples and settings of det=0.722, AA=5. From what I glued together up to this point it is all definitely worth it!

@ Kadri - Yes. Right now I'm using buckets of 128 with auto-reduce option unchecked. Is not sequence/output option for animations only?
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on April 01, 2014, 04:25:52 am
What if you pause the preview render before you hit render? It should not refresh then.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Kadri on April 01, 2014, 05:25:32 am
Quote from: N-drju on April 01, 2014, 04:13:21 am
...Is not sequence/output option for animations only?


You can give it a frame render range from 1 to 1 for example for only one frame.
Or with some intervals to check some animated options
to see if there is an interesting look.
It is not only for animation purpose.
You can make 360 degree moving sun scenes with different elevations
and render some images between to see which one will look better.
Or to get different clouds after you animate some parameters etc.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on April 01, 2014, 05:38:37 am
Kadri, are you sure, that this option is available even without the animation module? Can't check it, since I have the full package.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Kadri on April 01, 2014, 05:57:19 am
Quote from: Hannes on April 01, 2014, 05:38:37 am
Kadri, are you sure, that this option is available even without the animation module? Can't check it, since I have the full package.


Probably not.
I have the full animation package too.
On the first page he said he has the full version so not sure if he means the animation package or not.
Because of this i mentioned the Preferences options too Hannes.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: jo on April 01, 2014, 06:53:48 am
Hi N-drju,

How much RAM do you have in your machine? It would be interesting to know your machine specs. You never said what they were on that other thread you linked to.

11 populations with 7000 instances each is not very much. TG can handle way more than that. You could probably have 11 populations with millions of instances and it would still handle it fine.

I can't help but feel that something peculiar is happening for you. What you're describing sounds like it should be perfectly feasible. It would be good to know your machine specs.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 01, 2014, 07:04:16 am
Boy, I got TG2 as a present from my sister so long ago... We talked about how I'd like to get familiarized with computer art and that's how she purchased it for me. ??? What I know for sure is that I have some animation-related buttons with "Set animation key" options so that must be it. I never tried animation before and I doubt I ever will on my current computer with those darn memory issues plaguing me. It's version 2.4 for Windows.

You know where the problem might lie Jo? Get this - I got TG2 when I was still working on Windows but now I have Apple computer and have to run Windows through Bootcamp. Crazy, eh?
________

Basically, Bootcamp is an additional application that allows to install Windows system (hence, all Windows compatible software) to Mac on a separate drive. It is like taking some of the Mac OS system's resources and giving them at Windows disposal.

Jo, a kind request - could you please give me some accurate information on system requirements for Terragen 2 so I can make some comparisons and have a reference for future computer purchase? I can't find anything on the wiki much less on the Planetside page as TG3 dominated it. ;)
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Kadri on April 01, 2014, 10:20:01 am

There was-is a Mac Terragen version too.
I think you can still download it but i am not sure.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: jaf on April 01, 2014, 12:42:15 pm
Some requirement here: http://planetside.co.uk/products/download-tg3/file/tg3-w32?id=1

N-drju, it would help if you posted your computer specs.  Also, populations don't mean much since they can be large or small in size and the density (spacing) can also be large or small.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: jo on April 01, 2014, 04:22:24 pm
Hi N-drju,

I don't think running TG on Windows using Boot Camp should be a problem. I have Macs myself and use Boot Camp to boot into Windows for TG development and playing games. I don't think I've ever had any problems because Windows was running via Boot Camp. When you use Boot Camp your computer basically thinks it's a PC. All your system resources get turned over to Windows. Boot Camp is the really the best way to run Windows on a Mac.

If you're using TG 2.4 I would recommend updating to 2.5. It's a free upgrade. Send an email to support@planetside.co.uk to find out where you can download it from. You can also start using the Mac version if you like. The key file which is used for registered versions of TG can be used on Mac or Windows, so you don't have to use TG on Windows.

If your computer is 64 bit I would strongly recommend that you use the 64 bit version of TG.

The system requirements for TG2 are pretty basic - Windows XP or newer, OS X 10.4 or newer for the Mac. 2 GB RAM. I would say pretty much any computer you could buy would meet the minimum requirements. However we suggest a 64 bit CPU, as fast as you can afford with as much RAM as you can afford. I would say 8 GB RAM would be the minimum I'd want. The graphics card is not too important.

Anyway, please let us know your system specs as it may mean we can help to address the problems you're having. It doesn't matter if you're using Boot Camp, the system specs will apply equally to OS X or Windows.

Regards,

Jo

Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 02, 2014, 02:39:04 am
@ jaf - I specifically requested for Terragen 2 sysreqs. TG3 requirements are of no use to me currently unless they are just the same which are not I think...

@ jo - Thank you for all this information! That's a lot of food for thoughts. So you say it's perfectly fine to upgrade the Mac version of TG2 (I have a demo working there) with the key file used for Windows version? Hm... I can't really imagine how... ??? Do I just copy that file into the TG folder or what?

As far as population numbers are concerned, are you sure that we are speaking of regular home computers and not those on space stations? ;) Millions of instances x 15? What kind of system could handle that? My system specs are:

Processor - 3.2Ghz Intel Core i3 (4 cores)
Memory - 4GB 1333Mhz DDR3
Operating system - Windows XP Professional 32-bit (through Bootcamp)
_______________________

Okay, now listen well guys...

As a last resort I tried a very unorthodox solution which was rendering my image through Windows being the only system, on our old computer with... only one processor core and 1/4 of my current RAM!

It really raised my eyebrows when I saw that rendering much bigger crops on that computer worked okay and did not bring any errors at all! :o Except for just a few when I tried to render whole image at once. Sure, populating objects and loading the .tgd file itself takes a little bit longer (read carefully - a little) but render is building up nicely, if slower. No crashes, save button appears. That poor, oldie lap-top doesn't render at some mind-boggling speed but it seems it is the best solution yet. Well then... Stay tuned for the final render!

Meanwhile, the research continues... :D
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on April 02, 2014, 03:31:32 am
So you're running Windows XP 32bit via Bootcamp. I don't know if this makes sense, but on a PC a 32bit OS can use only 2GB of RAM unless you use some software trick (which I forgot the name of) to use 3GB. Is this the case on a Mac as well, when you use a 32bit system?
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 02, 2014, 05:08:14 am
Not sure what you mean Hannes... It is possible to trick the system into giving more RAM for Terragen to use? Is that what you say?
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Hannes on April 02, 2014, 05:40:58 am
What I mean is that a 32bit system on a PC can only use 2GB of RAM max., unless you use this trick:
http://dwf.blogs.com/beyond_the_paper/2009/04/enabling-3gb-switch-on-windows-vista.html
Like that you can use 3GB (I never tried that before I had a 64bit system).
But since you are using a Mac with a virtual Windows system, I don't know if this is relevant. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: jo on April 02, 2014, 05:57:58 am
Hi N-drju,

Quote from: N-drju on April 02, 2014, 02:39:04 am
@ jo - Thank you for all this information! That's a lot of food for thoughts. So you say it's perfectly fine to upgrade the Mac version of TG2 (I have a demo working there) with the key file used for Windows version? Hm... I can't really imagine how... ??? Do I just copy that file into the TG folder or what?


Yes, exactly. That's all you need to do. Take the key file from Windows and put it in the same folder as the Mac TG application. You will need to download the right Mac version but if you send an email to registrations@planetside.co.uk Oshyan should be able to sort that out for you.

QuoteAs far as population numbers are concerned, are you sure that we are speaking of regular home computers and not those on space stations? ;) Millions of instances x 15? What kind of system could handle that?


Many systems. Check this out:

http://planetside.co.uk/component/content/article/7-news/2-23-released

There are 207,360,000 instances in that first image. This was rendered on my Mac Pro which at the time was a pretty serious system, but you can see that TG can easily manage it. Your system could do it too, with a 64 bit OS and a bit more RAM.

Quote
My system specs are:

Processor - 3.2Ghz Intel Core i3 (4 cores)
Memory - 4GB 1333Mhz DDR3
Operating system - Windows XP Professional 32-bit (through Bootcamp)


Ok, this is good information. For one thing, your CPU is a 64 bit CPU. This means you can run TG in 64 bit mode if you have a 64 bit OS. We strongly recommend running TG on a 64 bit OS. If you change over to using the Mac version of TG and you have at least OS X 10.5 (I would recommend at least OS X 10.6) then you can run TG Mac in 64 bit mode. This would be much cheaper (i.e. free!) than buying a 64 bit version of Windows.

You are almost certainly having problems with rendering because you are using XP 32 bit and TG is running out of RAM. You can improve things by enabling the 3GB switch in the OS. This makes it possible for TG to access 3 GB of RAM instead of only 2 GB. There are instructions for turning on the 3GB switch here:

http://dwf.blogs.com/beyond_the_paper/2009/04/enabling-3gb-switch-on-windows-vista.html

I can't be responsible for the content of that site but it looks like pretty good information.

However I would strongly recommend that you try TG Mac and use it in 64 bit mode. This will mean TG will be able to use all your 4GB of RAM. In fact it will be able to use more than that but it will mean the OS starts to use virtual memory and it will slow down a lot. You will get far fewer problems due to TG running out of RAM though.

If you can manage it, and your Mac allows you to do it, I would suggest getting some more RAM. I don't think it's terribly expensive at the moment and if you could manage to get up to 8 GB or more then that would make things much easier with complex TG scenes.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 02, 2014, 07:39:54 am
Thank you very much for going through all that trouble for me. :) Given some free time I'll check out those options.

However, all this story made me think that perhaps it's time to start looking for another computer, probably next lap top instead of a family Mac computer. I hold some more grudges of other sort against Mac too... You see, just like I wrote above - old, slow(er) computer with Windows as a primary OS and only one core to work with is rendering more efficiently than that space-technology of Apple... ???

Anyhow, thanks again for your assistance!


Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: Oshyan on April 03, 2014, 08:25:38 pm
Taking care of your 2.5 update request now (via support email box) and you'll have access to the native Mac version now too.

Btw, I wasn't saying that if you increased display resolution that the render view would not also increase to "100%", I was just saying it's not a solution, saving out your renders that way is just a bad idea. Better to resolve the underlying issue of why the Save button never appears. Hopefully the 2.5 version running natively under OS X will fix the problem. Be sure to let us know!

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 04, 2014, 02:30:00 am
Thank you for this support Oshyan, I've just explored the link. As soon as I have some free time, I'll try to fix all this. Hopefully the tools you gave me will work just fine.

Have a nice weekend guys. :)

______________________
Edit

Oshyan,

Thank you for this update. I just upgraded the Mac demo version and I am now running TG2 from this OS. I guess I will not be able to determine how it works until the next render but I've made a test with populating objects and rendering at 1400x1050 and they all went fine. I really do appreciate how you and Jo handled this issue I (hopefully) had. :)

Once again - have a nice and renderous weekend!
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: jo on April 09, 2014, 05:19:09 pm
Hi,

Make sure the Mac version is running in 64 bit mode. You can tell if it is because it says so in the System Information part of the splash screen. You can also check by doing a Get Info on the application in the Finder. In the General section of the Info window there is a check box labelled "Open in 32-bit mode". Make sure this is not checked.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Resolution mismatch
Post by: N-drju on April 10, 2014, 02:21:30 am
No, 64 it says. A-ok.