Hi,
http://dupuich.smugmug.com/Bonsai/Exhibits/BIB-12th-Annual-Exhibit/DSC0048/1171619625_VKsHF-S.jpg
So this is bonsai I know. But these trees here have that sort of quintessential far Eastern feel. SO regardless of the size, what tree are they. And are there any examples of this sort tree looking as cool large as they do as bonsai?
Sorry the image is kinda small. But I think its good enough to show.
If I remember right bonsai is Japanese for little tree. But the image in the link also fits for lots of Chinese imagery that I have seen. IS there a tree in china that looks like this?
Im interested in a tree from China that looks like the link. But I think anything like it may work. Just need some species to look into.
Thanks if you have some ideas.
Take a look at XFrog's Bonsai collection. They come with pots but I guess these could be removed.
http://xfrog.com/product/X-19.html
The trees in your image could well be Temple Juniper, Scots Pine or Japanese White Plum.
My mother grows Bonsai, basically any tree can be made (forced) into a dwarfed shape, simply restrict its root space and control it's water and growth shape with wire.
Ahh yes! thank you. That really helps :) there are some great examples in the xfog library you posted.
I think that I could not simply enlarge them though. It looks like the leaves are to the scale of the Bonsai, so would be gigantic leaves when the tree was scaled to a full size... I'm guessing.
Probably I want to try and make one. the Temple Juniper is a fine species for what I want by the looks in your link. Thanks again.
You're right about not being able to enlarge them without having huge single leaves.
Two options:
Get XFrog and you can remodel any of their plants and scale the leaves appropriately.
or
Use the existing leaves and redo the leaf texture so each single leaf image becomes a multiple leaf frond. (make sure you create a matching alpha channel as you go.
By chance do you know where I can find photos of real rocks like in the OP link?
As I understad it both Japanese and Chinese traditional art look to nature for their rules and inspiration. So, I think there are giant rocks just like in the image some place. I would very much like to learn the locations of such rocks! Then I should be able to find tons of reference photos on flicker and google.
At first glance I guessed it to be some kind of juniper. Comparing the XFrog "temple juniper" with other actual photos of real temple juniper, the XFrog version looks to me more like a pine with short needles or a cypress. I have Aljos Farjon's "A Natural History of Conifers". It isn't comprehensive in species coverage but it does a good job at evolutionary history and natural history which are what I was most interested in. I couldn't bring myself to spend $180 on his tome "An Atlas of the World's Conifers: An Analysis of Their Distribution, Biogeography, Diversity, and Conservation Status". Reading in the book I have says "This species [Platycladus orientalis] and Juniperus chinensis are the two most commonly planted large conifer trees on temple grounds and around palaces [in China]-a good example is the Forbidden City in Beijing". As for bonsai, Farjon's book says that it is practiced in Japan, China and Korea. So it wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese used the two species above for this kind of cultivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platycladus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_chinensis
Nice!
And what do you think about the rock?
Quote from: TheBadger on September 17, 2014, 03:15:36 PMNice! And what do you think about the rock?
The shapes and even the color reminds me of the stone forest of Madagascar. Look on the left side of the lower edge of the photo in this article:
http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/today-in-travel/daily-daydream-stone-forest-of-madagascar.html?id=10606108
They are not an exact match, as the ones in the Bonsai photo look somewhat (and even artificially) tiered. This is no wonder since the pieces were almost certainly hand-positioned and probably glued in place (if they are rock) for visual effect. Such formations in nature would probably not be very stable under millennia of erosion.
On the other hand, it may not be rock at all but wood which often bleaches out to this gray color when exposed to the sun for years. That was actually my first impression.
Rocks --- Search for Wulingyuan moutains of China.
(http://english.zhangjiajie.gov.cn/attachments/2013/03/2_201303220129431hpD9.jpg)
^^ Yeah, I have spent a good amount of time trying to get good satellite data of that location. The best I have been able to find is 1 arc second though. Which is not helpful because at that detail level the spires don't show up at all. I can't even find commercial data, but even if I could it would probably cost too much for me.
I did find some data for Madagascar that is pretty good. But not for the part Pablo linked. The same problem as the park in China. The towers are too close together, too tall and to slim to get good results in TG from a DEM. Again thats 1 arc second.
I read about penjing, which is the Chinese idealization of nature. The notion of idealization leads me to doubt that I will find real rock formations like those found in Bonsai. :-[ Still, I suspect that there is something very close out there. Penjing is taken from nature, not made up out of thin air. So there has to be something real like you see in really fine Chinese Bonsai. I'll keep looking for a while.
Edit
AHHHH http://www.happybonsai.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rock-bonsai-garden-tour-01.jpg
Looks like these rocks were moved. They look sorta volcanic. Perhaps sea eroded. Its a clue ;D
http://people.virginia.edu/~jlr5m/ChinaAlbum/IMG_0073_shanghai3.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/chinese-rock-garden-687585.jpg
http://kevinjames.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/suzhou_lion-garden_rocks.jpg !!
Not sure if this is even real stone? http://meromtzion.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/china-2012-376.jpg
Come to think of it, TG is sorta like Bonsai, even more so then other 3D soft, since its starting place is real world rules.
OK, found out.
So Penjing is not just a word for a philosophy, but is also the word for the art, like Bonsai. But penjing predates bonzie significantly. And acording to what I read they are pretty hard to tell apart for most people. Also they are both always changing.
About the rocks.
They use everything that they find in nature that has the kind of beauty that the (tree sculpter?) prefers. There are rules to it. But one thing I thought was funny was how its very preferable to find natural stone that looks like recognisable shapes, such as humans and animals. Which reminded me of that thread here where people were seeing faces in their renders ;D So not just schizophrenic but Penjing!
In some cases acid is used to shape rocks, like limestone I guess. But this seems in conflict with with Penjing. Apparently this is how the rocks may be made that you can buy on-line such as this http://www.bonsaiboy.com/catalog/product397.html Im lead to understand that this is not real Penjing or Bonsai.
Anyway, there is a word for the rocks that are used. Suiseki.
And from this word it is possible to find all kinds of inspiration for modeling stones and rock faces. So that was fun. ;D Lots of inspiration for me in TG now. Sadly, it all looks really hard to make :P
Dont really want to go out and make a little tree. But I think this is great inspiration for TG and 3d sculpting/object making.
I think someone else recently brought this topic up in the forums for using in TG. I don't remember what was said or who posted it though. If that person is reading this, Please post some work you did for TG based on Bonsai! Would love to see it now.
Thanks guys.
Quote from: TheBadger on September 19, 2014, 06:25:26 AMThey use everything that they find in nature that has the kind of beauty that the (tree sculpter?) prefers.
Sadly, respect and "use" are frequently at odds when it comes to nature. I was on a paleontology field trip (I think it was the Las Vegas meeting of the SVP) and had the pleasure to meet an ethnic Chinese guy who had grown up in the Perth area of Australia. I had to look at him to get the Chinese connection because, listening to him speak, he was in every way "Western" and could have been an ultra-modern American given the proper accent. He told me how he was participating in a dig in northwestern China. He was interested in the herps (reptiles and amphibians) of the area and visited the local book stores. The only books he could find on the subject were in the food section! This Chinese/Australian guy says that the extent to which Chinese are willing to go to preserve endangered species is to save the Greater Panda. That's it! They're done! Nothing more than that. Nothing else matters in the opinion of the mass media or in the minds of the average Chinese citizen. The Chinese might give a lot of lip service to having respect for nature but "they eat everything" (as is often said) and have little respect for nature in my opinion. A garden is a poor substitute for wilderness. Everyone should experience a true wilderness, untouched for thousands if not millions of years. There is nothing else like them. If you want to see a real one visit the Tapanti in Costa Rica or Baja California.
QuoteA garden is a poor substitute for wilderness
The garden is called Eden in western Art, before that it had other names but was just the same. Its functionally the same in classical Chinese art. Idealization is always connected to the Devine in classicism regardless of east vs west. Its just the stories are different and the implementation of ideals is different. Regardless of what words or names are used to say divine.
So whether the stone is found to be "perfect" in nature, naturally (whatever we mean by nature or natural), or if it was made so by human hands, it is a pursuit of the divine world. But like in the west, in modernity, art in all of its forms is now almost entirely consumed by the pursuit of aesthetics alone. Which is what you just described, in my opinion, when you said a garden is a poor substitute for wilderness. That is, aesthetics, or the appearance of a thing but lacking its purpose or meaning. A thing for its own sake (art for arts sake). So the wilderness is a garden that has lost its meaning and purpose, but so has the garden. Penjing is one way some people a long time ago tried to address that. What it means today, is whatever people say it means.
In classic art, the wilderness is the ruin of the garden. The garden represents the *perfection* of all nature as it was *created* (no one in the ancient world believed in evolution). Everything else you said is a conversation about communism (A thing for its own sake regardless of what was intended on paper) as far as I am concerned.
And certainly I would argue, all of chinas problems are the fault of communism and the uphevles that lead to communism there. Really, everything you just wrote about china describes the nature of communisim perfectly. Of course the people will reflect that in how they inhabit their space.. Communism consumes everything for its own sake. Some people say the same of capitalism. Some say the same of all religion for that mater, but in that case they have just made the state into god, and thus will do the same for them selves. Just look at environmentalism, the arguments for it are all inherently selfish. Georg Carlin had a very funny but insightful rant on this that someone posted in these forums a while ago.
Anyway, ideals are difficult things. No one to my knowledge has ever lived up to the greater ones. Which is kinda the point too. I like learning about them
I believe its worth thinking about them.
Now Im sure everyone is as tired of me as I am, so I'll quit now.
I'd been a bonsai (small 'b' according to the Japanese) hobbyist for about 11 years from the 70s through the 80s until I moved to Arizona. Couldn't get my collection through the agricultural inspection check point at the border and had to sell and give away my plants.
By your photo which is small, I couldn't tell if the plant was Juniper or small leaf elm. I had the opportunity to participate in two 3-day workshops with the then bonsai master 'John Yoshio Naka', who lived in southern California. He passed away a few years ago. I have his handbook which could be very useful for plant modeling. John sold one of his creations to 'Red Skelton' which was a Juniper forest planted in a large, shallow bonsai container. I tried replicating it which took me months of finding the right Juniper; then, many hours of pruning and wiring the five trees making ready for the transplanting into the bonsai pot.
It took two persons to pick this planting up and get it into my van. It was sad to have to sell it later when I moved.
I think it is quite beautiful Bob! I really love these little trees.
And I always thought, you know, tress don't often look like this in nature. Sometimes, but its rather rare to find trees in nature that have so much personality as those we see in this art. I always wondered if you could take a little tree and transplant it to larger and larger pots. Until eventually it became full size while keeping all of the personality and detail of the bonsai?
Michael, you can replant the bonsai tree into the ground letting it grow larger; however, much judicious pruning and possible wiring will be needed over the years to maintain the shape.
Thanks. Yeah, it does not sound very practical.
But some bonsai are hundreds of years old and worth tens of thousands of dollars, and even much more. And you can buy full size trees too, also very costly. But a lot of that is in transplanting and moving.
Still, imagine a public space with a giant bowl like you used in your image on the last page. surrounded by a nice walkway. And in that bowl a set, or single tree, like the ones we see in bonsai. Only at full size... Would make a great earthworks art work! I imagine this must have been done someplace by someone already.
And then there is the idea of tree farming for landscapes. there is a lot someone with the right skill set could do with all of that to make both money and art. And also make lots of people happy.
Something like the OP link, but at real size in the middle of a city. Would be a really great park to visit!
Quote from: TheBadger on September 19, 2014, 02:37:49 PMSo the wilderness is a garden that has lost its meaning and purpose, but so has the garden...In classic art, the wilderness is the ruin of the garden.
I was following you until we got here. I was expecting you to write "A garden is a fabrication with a human purpose that imitates wilderness but lacks its substance. It is artificial." That I would totally agree with. I can see that many gardens have the purpose of pleasing the ones who create them or for whom they were created. But the purpose of wilderness is deeper and beyond the scope and understanding of humans. It was the birthplace of all of life. You and I do have very different perspectives. If there ever was a real "Garden of Eden" I believe that its beauty was just incidental "in the eyes of the beholder". Its *purpose* was not to be pleasing to the eye but as a place to feed them and provide a safe haven to keep Adam and Eve from being eaten by sabor-toothed cats and the like. The traditional belief that animals didn't become carnivorous (among other natural features of wild things) until after (and because of) the sin of man is complete bull-hockey. I think the reference to "garden" in Genesis really doesn't mean a thing of beauty but was a place where things were grown to meet the needs of humans in the sense of a "vegetable garden". The primitives may have believed or wanted to believe that "the garden" came first and a wilderness only came from neglect of maintaining that garden. But modern man has been discovering and now understands that this belief was backwards. Science has shown that the wilderness came first by hundreds of millions of years and that gardens are only recent man-made things to grow the food he needs or to try and bring the feeling of wilderness close to him in his urban concrete (or otherwise sterile) home environment.
If we are going to apply modern thinking to ancient art, we will never understand the art, be it from western history or the far east.
And I'm not saying I know much about the ancient Chinese.
But come on man! Are you really saying that Christians/Jews/Israelites (as represented by their art) believed that Eden was,
QuoteA garden...with a human purpose that imitates wilderness but lacks its substance
. That's just willfully absurd.
And what is the "substance" of the wilderness? What separates a garden from the wilderness? DEATH! In all of human history as represented by Art, the wilderness is death. And in fact, *All* of practical human history has been the effort to escape the wilderness. In all of human history nothing kills people more then nature, not war, not politics not religion. But you don't understand the connection between the garden and hope/faith/world-religions? You don't even have to study to see, just look. This is entirely the point of the Eden story.
The wilderness is death in western art, my hypothesis is that it is the same in ancient far eastern art in some way.
I promise you that if you search through the Art at the time Penjing was sort of new in China, and also the dominant religions of the time, there will be formal connections. And I am willing to bet that Penjing was a religious meditation on some idea of the natural world and some notion (or religious ideal) of some form of "Paradise", by whatever words they used to describe these things.
One last thought about Eden in relation to Penjing or even Bonsai. In the case of Eden, Eden was not destroyed after the fall. Rather two guards were placed at its gates. Suggesting that a future return to *paradise* would be possible. I find it remarkable that after Marco Polo, we do not find some form of Penjing practiced in old world European monasteries and other religious institutions, or in palaces of the "Christian" kings as we do formal gardens. But by some other name.
I am trying to find something that I can reasonably connect in European formal gardening, to China, via Marco Polo. Some sort of influence.
But I suspect that I will find some complaint about the focus on appearance over content as in the contemporary argument of aesthetics and beauty (the "religion" of the east would have had to be removed, leaving only the shell). Or some cultural race based impasse.
More likely if there is any influence, it will have been dissolved in some melting pot.
Off topic... I would like to see a reality show where people who love the wilderness but don't know anything about it have to go live in one for a year with nothing. I am sure the ratings will be gold when the first of these morons is eaten by a bear or dies from hypothermia or starvation. I have heard that bubonic plague can be found in armadillos in the south west... The wilderness is death and it wants to eat you, that is its only purpose. The garden is life. And that is the root of everything. :P
Quote from: TheBadger on September 22, 2014, 07:15:48 PMAre you really saying that Christians/Jews/Israelites ... believed that Eden was, QuoteA garden...with a human purpose that imitates wilderness but lacks its substance
. That's just willfully absurd.
No. I'm not saying that's what they believed. They were also primitives (the authors of the Bible included). I am saying that they didn't understand what the garden really was. They idealized it in the way you describe the Chinese also idealizing it. I was agreeing with you on that point (that the primitives idealized "gardens"). My point was that their ideals almost certainly did not match reality. I gave you my personal beliefs to contrast with those you describe as being the beliefs of ancient people who did not have the perspective of modern science.
Quote from: TheBadger on September 22, 2014, 07:15:48 PMAnd what is the "substance" of the wilderness? What separates a garden from the wilderness? DEATH! In all of human history as represented by Art, the wilderness is death. And in fact, *All* of practical human history has been the effort to escape the wilderness. In all of human history nothing kills people more then nature, not war, not politics not religion. But you don't understand the connection between the garden and hope/faith/world-religions? You don't even have to study to see, just look. This is entirely the point of the Eden story.
You are correct in that almost the whole of human history is that written by the primitives through their primitive (and often lack of) understanding. Much of the reality that science is uncovering in modern times they didn't understand like we do today. They thought of everything in terms of meeting their own animal needs and desires. They didn't have the mind of God because their thoughts were clouded by human need (and human frailty as you have pointed out so well). So, as you describe, few even understood what "wilderness" is. Wilderness does not have to be watered. It does not have to be pruned or maintained by human effort. It grew and evolved on its own without human intervention. That is the "substance" that gardens lack. Beauty gardens are just façades to please humans. They have no real life of their own. Their "life" is in the minds of the people who enjoy them. Lacking human observation and other "uses", they have no purpose. But wilderness does have purpose even in the absence of humanity. Did you really miss those parts of the Bible where it says that the masses of humanity don't understand reality because they don't have the mind of God? That's one of the Bible's most important lessons.
lol
Quote from: TheBadger on September 22, 2014, 09:08:45 PMlol
If I had delivered my above narrative to one of the many dozens of scientists and engineers I know or have met, any one of them would have yawned and said to me "Tell me something I don't already know". I guess we all have a strong tendency to associate with people who think like we do, not only for company but to help reinforce the beliefs we have chosen. LOL indeed!
Badger, you didn't send Archonforest your picture for the Map Project. I'd like to see what you look like. :)