I've been getting intermittent crashes lately and finally feel I've narrowed it down enough to post some details here (my system is in my signature.) I've been able to rule out memory and heat problems but I'm 99% sure it caused by NOT having the preview paused and initiating a render. I typically us min 1 & max 64 threads and the crash occurs during the populating phase. If I pause the preview, I don't get the crash. So this is not a big deal to me since it's easy enough to avoid. So if you experience crashes, it's one thing that's easy to try.
I wonder if TG should have a "lockout feature" whenever a render or population update is active?
Sometimes it happens to me too. I paused it too for that.
But lately by using the more basic preview option (by not pressing the "renderers" button above in the menu bar) i got the same result (no crashes).
I've been having random crashing changing values within shaders when they're in the high negatives or simply low values. I'll change a xxxxx.02 to xxxxx.03 and it'll lock up. Sometimes it doesn't though.
I have gotten the population crashes too, though mine seem to be mainly related to generating meshes on Rocks, as there is no actual progress bar, and just a blank box that pops up and closes (which would contain a progress bar if it was some sort of insane mesh). I am assuming all these boxes are causing issues with WDM and causing PIDs to go haywire and the app crash. Maybe those windows should be somehow tied into a overall progress like the actual population and not for each individual mesh when you have some 100+ variations.
All in all the problems for me aren't many. I just cranked down variations to 30, and with shaders, I save often. Lol
I just started using T3 Creative on a 64bit Windows 7 i7 PC with 12 gigs of ram and an nVidia GeForce GTX 650 graphics card w/2 gigs GDDR5.
I'm getting crashes of the application fairly often for no apparent reason. A couple of times it froze the whole PC and required a reboot.
One thing I can repeat often is a crash when trying to link an image with a tgd using the library. It crashes more often than not but surprisingly, sometimes it works.
I'm a newbie and I don't think I'm stressing the system or the software much at all as I try to learn it. My perception so far is that the application is fairly unstable at this point.
I also have a 2011 iMac with moderate capabilities which I will install T3 on to see if it displays similar behavior.
Regards,
fleetfoot
Thanks for the reports folks, and sorry for the instability you're experiencing.
Regarding the population-related problems, we have become aware of a possible intermittent crash in that code and we're looking into it, but it's tough to pin down so far. If you can narrow it down to specific actions, etc. that's very helpful. The possibility that it may be related to "not having the 3D preview paused" is interesting and makes me wonder if it means the 3D preview is always in an updating process (i.e. still rendering) when you start the full render. Can anyone clarify that or provide any further details?
Fleetfoot, your experience does not sound normal, that's the good news. So hopefully we can resolve it. Most of the time frequent stability issues come down either to hardware issues, i.e. memory, CPU heat, etc. (most people think it's not their hardware, of course, but it still sometimes is :D ) OR graphics card driver problems.
To my recollection we have not heard of any instances of Terragen taking down the entire system that were *not* related to underlying hardware or driver issues, and this makes sense because modern versions of Windows (Vista and newer, but especially Win7 or 8 ) are really quite robust and applications basically aren't allowed to do things that fundamentally break the OS, except in rare circumstances. So the fact that a hard crash occurred does indicate to me that something outside of TG is not working quite right. It's worth doing a test of your memory (Memtest86+ if possible) and a basic burn-in for an hour or two (e.g. Prime95) while monitoring temperature of the CPU. I realize that this may sound ridiculous as it's quite likely no other apps are causing problems, but from long experience it seems that this is one of the best places to start looking when things like this come up.
Now, it could be graphics related; that can cause some pretty hard crashes if the drivers aren't setup to handle problematic situations gracefully. These issues are quite frustrating as we're not really using any terribly demanding or complex OpenGL functions in Terragen, it just seems to be that the graphics card manufacturers are more focused on game performance and DirectX than stability, OpenGL, and 3D graphics baselines. Sometimes updating the graphics card drivers helps, but unfortunately sometimes *older* drivers actually work better. It's worth trying an update to start though. You can also try closing the 3D preview for a while as a test and see if it appears to be more stable (you can even start TG with the -no3dpreview option to disable it by default).
Hopefully that helps. Let us know if you find out anything further. We'll certainly do our best to make Terragen stable on your machine!
- Oshyan
I haven't had a crash since I have paused the preview render before doing a population update or starting a render (that does a population update.)
I believe there was a relatively recent update to the preview window making it faster (multi-threading?) Or was it populating, or both? Anyway, my system shows 98 to 99% cpu usage when populating and I'm not sure if the preview is locked out -- have to look and see. Also, I've been using population preview colors a lot.
Quote from: Oshyan on December 25, 2014, 01:33:56 AM
Thanks for the reports folks, and sorry for the instability you're experiencing.
Regarding the population-related problems, we have become aware of a possible intermittent crash in that code and we're looking into it, but it's tough to pin down so far. If you can narrow it down to specific actions, etc. that's very helpful. The possibility that it may be related to "not having the 3D preview paused" is interesting and makes me wonder if it means the 3D preview is always in an updating process (i.e. still rendering) when you start the full render. Can anyone clarify that or provide any further details?
Fleetfoot, your experience does not sound normal, that's the good news. So hopefully we can resolve it. Most of the time frequent stability issues come down either to hardware issues, i.e. memory, CPU heat, etc. (most people think it's not their hardware, of course, but it still sometimes is :D ) OR graphics card driver problems.
To my recollection we have not heard of any instances of Terragen taking down the entire system that were *not* related to underlying hardware or driver issues, and this makes sense because modern versions of Windows (Vista and newer, but especially Win7 or 8 ) are really quite robust and applications basically aren't allowed to do things that fundamentally break the OS, except in rare circumstances. So the fact that a hard crash occurred does indicate to me that something outside of TG is not working quite right. It's worth doing a test of your memory (Memtest86+ if possible) and a basic burn-in for an hour or two (e.g. Prime95) while monitoring temperature of the CPU. I realize that this may sound ridiculous as it's quite likely no other apps are causing problems, but from long experience it seems that this is one of the best places to start looking when things like this come up.
Now, it could be graphics related; that can cause some pretty hard crashes if the drivers aren't setup to handle problematic situations gracefully. These issues are quite frustrating as we're not really using any terribly demanding or complex OpenGL functions in Terragen, it just seems to be that the graphics card manufacturers are more focused on game performance and DirectX than stability, OpenGL, and 3D graphics baselines. Sometimes updating the graphics card drivers helps, but unfortunately sometimes *older* drivers actually work better. It's worth trying an update to start though. You can also try closing the 3D preview for a while as a test and see if it appears to be more stable (you can even start TG with the -no3dpreview option to disable it by default).
Hopefully that helps. Let us know if you find out anything further. We'll certainly do our best to make Terragen stable on your machine!
- Oshyan
Terragen does render the preview while a full render is going. For example, if I don't pause, and start a render, when I come back and minimize the render, or finish it the preview will be "Finished rendering" when it wasn't even at 5% when starting the render.
I also seemed to notice last night Terragen was restarting it's render preview when dragging nodes around. This I can not totally confirm as I'm waiting on my PSU and having fun on a Rasberry Pi, so this could be CPU L2 Cache related, but if I remember correctly the preview was continuously going back to 5% detail every time I dragged a node while rearranging, which caused the app to lock up during each drag/click.
Interesting Sasquatch, you've found at least 1 bug! Indeed, if you simply drag a node *while the preview is updating*, it will restart the update process. If you let the preview finish then move a node it doesn't restart. But that first part is definitely a bug, and a rather annoying one too. Well spotted.
Now, the 3D preview definitely should *not* be updating while primary rendering is going on. In my tests just now I was not able to show that it does. If I started a render in the middle of the preview update, the render completed normally, then the restarted and updated until complete. Can you demonstrate different behavior consistently?
- Oshyan
I've mentioned instability ever since the preview became multithreaded, and made a mental note to save as often as possible. Indeed, even changing a simple number sometimes makes TG freeze/crash, I reported that as well, half a year or more ago. Also dragging the crophandles around starts refreshing the preview, which is quite irritating sometimes. I don't like being negative, but this unpredictable behavior is something that annoyed me all along.
Quote from: Oshyan on December 30, 2014, 01:55:35 AM
Interesting Sasquatch, you've found at least 1 bug! Indeed, if you simply drag a node *while the preview is updating*, it will restart the update process. If you let the preview finish then move a node it doesn't restart. But that first part is definitely a bug, and a rather annoying one too. Well spotted.
Now, the 3D preview definitely should *not* be updating while primary rendering is going on. In my tests just now I was not able to show that it does. If I started a render in the middle of the preview update, the render completed normally, then the restarted and updated until complete. Can you demonstrate different behavior consistently?
- Oshyan
I think I can confirm that. I do get different behavior. I started some small test renders just to see, and it seems 5/10 times it will not pause the render (timing on clicking "Render Image" while preview is rendering?) The times it did pause the preview, it stayed paused until the render finished, the other 5 times it was rendering both, and actually cause significant slow down with the primary render, and one time; what do you know, one of those weird little bucket cache boxes looking off-place like the cell didn't render correctly.
(http://i.imgur.com/7kVv3ej.png)
No settings were changed during the render, that just... happened (?)
I would really be in favor of a lockout of data entry/modification and preview renders while a population or render is in progress. Maybe allow file saving, but the rest is all "read only."
Of course this might not be practical from the developers perspective, but it would cut down a lot of new user's frustration (and old user's like me who forget what they are doing.) :)
I might add the TG3 seems very stable when using other software. I know it's not recommended, but my job is a 24/7 one and frequently I have to fire up an office program or do some Internet work. I do try to remember to pause a render, but sometime forget.
The intended behavior already is that Preview rendering should stop when primary rendering happens. So if that's not the case, as WASasquatch reports, then it's a bug that will be fixed. I should note however that unlike his other bug (moving nodes restarts preview rendering), I haven't been able to reproduce the preview rendering while primary rendering is going on. If anyone else gets this behavior too, please let us know!
The lack of "lock out" for other parameters is more a source of debate at Planetside. Personally I'm very much in agreement that parameter editing should be disallowed, or at least there should be a warning when you attempt it that it's not recommended and may cause unpredictable results. Hopefully that's a change that can be agreed on and made in the future.
- Oshyan
Well, of course it's rather logical that you shouldn't change parameters when rendering; it's like changing a tyre whilst driving :P Out of cuiriosity, I attempted it a few times, resulting in crashes or just weird color changes, the crashes sometimes only occurring after the render is starting the bucket with the changes in it (after half an hour or so).
My real job -- managing a couple commercial buildings -- results in lots of interruptions. If I had the money I could have a separate computer to do my renders. SO I'm pausing renders to run a spreadsheet, prepare a memo, scan an invoice, etc. And I'm getting old and forgetful, so I think my computer should help me out a bit.
What benefit is there in allowing a user to make data changes while a render is in progress?
Okay, here's another "pet peeve." I make a change in the preview window that requires I click on "Copy this view to the current render camera." Okay, I remember most of the time, but there's time I don't or am interrupted and forget. Well, I can just look a the icon, right? The images below show the difference in the left-most icon. Maybe a slow "blink" or a more radical change in the icon?
These aren't big deals and I've mentioned before that TG is my favorite application, so my complaints are more questions of "why not..?" So I can't resist putting in my 2 cents. :)
Quote from: jaf on January 02, 2015, 05:30:17 PM
My real job -- managing a couple commercial buildings -- results in lots of interruptions. If I had the money I could have a separate computer to do my renders. SO I'm pausing renders to run a spreadsheet, prepare a memo, scan an invoice, etc. And I'm getting old and forgetful, so I think my computer should help me out a bit.
What benefit is there in allowing a user to make data changes while a render is in progress?
Okay, here's another "pet peeve." I make a change in the preview window that requires I click on "Copy this view to the current render camera." Okay, I remember most of the time, but there's time I don't or am interrupted and forget. Well, I can just look a the icon, right? The images below show the difference in the left-most icon. Maybe a slow "blink" or a more radical change in the icon?
These aren't big deals and I've mentioned before that TG is my favorite application, so my complaints are more questions of "why not..?" So I can't resist putting in my 2 cents. :)
I actually was lost when looking at the images. My brain did not allow me to see the change, and this probably stems from the same issue I have in Terragen with cameras. I'm not that old... yet (26) but I have these same "pet peeves"
Also, as far as nodes and rendering.... I don't think the preview should be restarted unless you are plugging/unplugging nodes, as simply moving a node from a group, or changing the syntax of the nodes to look more appealing and organized has no impact on the render. So that is a bit strange it would restart even if I just click and drag a node half a centimeter, causing unnecessary strain on someones computer.
Also, allowing editing of the project while it renders, again, as mentioned above, I don't see any real benefit. Even a slight change in the ground, when rendering the sky, will cause the sky to break when the edits don't effect the sky. And more then 80% of the time, even just renaming a node, or changing a .01 variance will cause it to cash, instead of actually allowing that edit. Again, unnecessary strain on someones computer.
I just lost a PSU from Terragen spiking CPU/RAM usages (specifically forgetting a render was going and changing a PF scale is when it audibly went "POP") because of these issues, and I should have a whole 250 watts to spare. The fact TG can send my computer way past it's hardware limits and programmed restraints is very bad and can kill a computer from something as simple as accidentally changing a node while forgetting a render is underway. Luckily all the seemed to have popped was the PSU, and a single RAM card.
Quote from: WASasquatch on January 02, 2015, 05:57:31 PM
Also, as far as nodes and rendering.... I don't think the preview should be restarted unless you are plugging/unplugging nodes, as simply moving a node from a group, or
I just lost a PSU from Terragen spiking CPU/RAM usages (specifically forgetting a render was going and changing a PF scale is when it audibly went "POP") because of these issues, and I should have a whole 250 watts to spare. The fact TG can send my computer way past it's hardware limits and programmed restraints is very bad and can kill a computer from something as simple as accidentally changing a node while forgetting a render is underway. Luckily all the seemed to have popped was the PSU, and a single RAM card.
I started using a program today, which I've used in the past, call Project Lasso Pro. It's free today at: http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/ It can be a bit complicated but has potential and has a nice Task Manager type view. I believe you could set limits to keep those "spikes" from frying your system.
Below is a screen capture of Lasso when I running TG3 "full bore". The CPU's are up at 97% and using a pretty high ram load. I believe you can "throttle" down processes with Lasso. My cpu temp is 38C and rarely goes above 40, but that with water cooling.
As I've mentioned, the fact that the 3D preview restarts its update cycle when you simply move a node in the node network is a definite bug. Some of these other issues and concerns are also valid, and we're aware of them and hopefully can fix the most clear issues in the future. But there is nothing Terragen can do that will break your hardware unless the hardware itself is not properly configured (e.g. power supply too small for the given CPU/graphics card combo, CPU not properly cooled, etc.). Any 3D rendering program that is multithreaded will use your hardware as much as TG is, if not more (for example renderers that make use of GPU+CPU, TG only uses CPU).
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on January 02, 2015, 08:23:33 PM
As I've mentioned, the fact that the 3D preview restarts its update cycle when you simply move a node in the node network is a definite bug. Some of these other issues and concerns are also valid, and we're aware of them and hopefully can fix the most clear issues in the future. But there is nothing Terragen can do that will break your hardware unless the hardware itself is not properly configured (e.g. power supply too small for the given CPU/graphics card combo, CPU not properly cooled, etc.). Any 3D rendering program that is multithreaded will use your hardware as much as TG is, if not more (for example renderers that make use of GPU+CPU, TG only uses CPU).
- Oshyan
Well that is not entirely true. A lot of programs have governors in place that prevent 100% load, TG uses literally all it can, and anything to spare. For example, rendering a scene for me in Cinema 4D, I will never see my CPU spike above 91%. This was definitely not a hardware issue. CPU runs hot at 52c, safe-zone is 32-60c, max temp is 73c for a
24 hour rotation. It never hit 43c before dying. Everything was well in the green in temperatures, not even in the yellows or oranges. Then, my system has a full 250watts of energy to spare on a GPUless rig with a 5x original OEM PSU (on a 3 year warranty). That indicates nothing was strained what so ever power wise, or overheating.
However within a fraction of a second, while the load was at 100% I changed a PF, that creates immense strain on the system that has no room to recompute (at 100% already). Like your computer manual states "anything above 90% CPU usage can cause harm to your computer". They don't state "your hardware may suck" it's the fact that the hardware is not suppose to run at those levels consistently. Why rendering voids a lot of warranties if you actually dive into your computers manual further.
I've worked in computer repair with data centers (including a render farm) for several years (mainly servers and render nodes for web deving), I know when something has been killed from a program, and when something under warranty shouldn't be dying, especially well out of it's max temp. It's how we charge people. In data centers, we expect every rig to die from a user not correctly managing the 'application' not the computer. As the application is the source of the "kill" By the end of a season theres usually only 50% of the original rigs left... because of people sending in projects with whack settings. It's a very dangerous field. I think that's why a lot of applications have all those warnings, correct usage, and try to prevent stuff like that from happening.
It's no biggy, I'm not blaming anyone as I due know the risks very well, but of all things I am familiar with, it's code, and hardware. I'd put a hideable warning when hitting the render button that it's highly discouraged to edit the project while rendering. Maybe the consistent reminder will help me remember when I minimized a render. xD I've been rendering on a Rasberry Pi and Netbook for crying out loud. I just haven't accidently messed up and edited a project while it's rendering yet. If the simple render was causng my system a progam, both those machines should be long dead. Lol
Quote from: jaf on January 02, 2015, 07:21:18 PM
Quote from: WASasquatch on January 02, 2015, 05:57:31 PM
Also, as far as nodes and rendering.... I don't think the preview should be restarted unless you are plugging/unplugging nodes, as simply moving a node from a group, or
I just lost a PSU from Terragen spiking CPU/RAM usages (specifically forgetting a render was going and changing a PF scale is when it audibly went "POP") because of these issues, and I should have a whole 250 watts to spare. The fact TG can send my computer way past it's hardware limits and programmed restraints is very bad and can kill a computer from something as simple as accidentally changing a node while forgetting a render is underway. Luckily all the seemed to have popped was the PSU, and a single RAM card.
I started using a program today, which I've used in the past, call Project Lasso Pro. It's free today at: http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/ It can be a bit complicated but has potential and has a nice Task Manager type view. I believe you could set limits to keep those "spikes" from frying your system.
Below is a screen capture of Lasso when I running TG3 "full bore". The CPU's are up at 97% and using a pretty high ram load. I believe you can "throttle" down processes with Lasso. My cpu temp is 38C and rarely goes above 40, but that with water cooling.
I use ProcessHacker, I am wondering if they're based on each other cause looks almost identical. I'm going to have a look at that.
Yes, please don't take my inputs as hating on TG -- I love it. I understand what I think as a problem, other might not and I'm okay with that. And it's the users responsibility to make sure their system can handle the loads that most rendering programs put on the hardware and do the necessary preventative maintenance (cleaning) and monitoring temperatures. I learned the hard way a couple times when I used to run Seti on three computers 24/7 (except when I was using one for something else.)
WASasquatch -- I'm not sure you can force a processor over 100% -- it can only execute instructions up to it's maximum clock speed and the through-put memory and other I/O. If your system can run Prime95 full blast, Terragen is not going to be able to stress it any harder.
Quote from: jaf on January 02, 2015, 10:09:16 PM
WASasquatch -- I'm not sure you can force a processor over 100% -- it can only execute instructions up to it's maximum clock speed and the through-put memory and other I/O. If your system can run Prime95 full blast, Terragen is not going to be able to stress it any harder.
The upside of a CPU is it is meant to hit 100%, the downside is its not suppose to be given anymore computations (reasons why even on a multi-threaded CPU they don't advise multiple programs running at once) as that can cause iteration failures and core failures. Each computation has a priority, and if its coming from the same program/method they can get picked up in the bypass stage in the load/store unit (LSU)
And that's probably where anomalies like this
(http://i.imgur.com/7kVv3ej.png)
come from when you haven't changed anything, but moved a node causing TG to act like something has changed.
I don't think anyone is hating on TG. ;) I'm just trying to avoid misinformation. I am less concerned with individual convictions, more so about others getting the wrong idea.
Fully utilizing multi-core CPUs is just fine, and doesn't void your warranty. Same with using your CPU at 100% for extended periods of time. Here's Intel's current official warranty documentation:
http://download.intel.com/support/processors/sb/warranty_processor_english.pdf
As far as I can see the only expressed limitation is on overclocking, which agrees with my prior long-held understanding.
Modern CPUs have various built-in protection mechanisms for over temperature situations and other variances. They will automatically shut down the machine if they go out of spec to avoid damage. Damage to motherboards and PSUs is more common.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2015, 01:05:08 AM
I don't think anyone is hating on TG. ;) I'm just trying to avoid misinformation. I am less concerned with individual convictions, more so about others getting the wrong idea.
Fully utilizing multi-core CPUs is just fine, and doesn't void your warranty. Same with using your CPU at 100% for extended periods of time. Here's Intel's current official warranty documentation:
http://download.intel.com/support/processors/sb/warranty_processor_english.pdf
As far as I can see the only expressed limitation is on overclocking, which agrees with my prior long-held understanding.
Modern CPUs have various built-in protection mechanisms for over temperature situations and other variances. They will automatically shut down the machine if they go out of spec to avoid damage. Damage to motherboards and PSUs is more common.
- Oshyan
Unfortunately those safe guards are never perfect and people lose cores daily. What happens in a fraction of a second, happens in a fraction of a second. Transistors and emergency shutoffs don't work as fast as the CPU. Separate SOCs read the CPU sensors and determine whether to shut-off, or not. If it happens immediately, there is no time for that to happen.
Also, the CPU warranty is completely separate from a motherboard and
full computer warranty. For example "g) There is damage from use outside of the operation or storage parameters or environment detailed in the User's Manual or reasonably acceptable for similar product usage models deemed industry standard best practices;" in the ASUS warranty translated to them saying me running a CPU at 100% for more then 1-2 hours is neglect and voided my netbook. So effectively, rendering voided my warranty as of course it's going to take ages, and of course it's going to spike the CPU.
Also a CPU is only as good as it's mobo, and every mobo is differnet, and has different operation standards. Why we have "Gaming" boards, and "Server" boards, and "Budget" boards, and "OEM" (most restricted) boards.
Although I haven't seen it, it's possible that a bug is allowing the preview to continue during a render. If I recall correctly there may be a short window of time where the preview may still be running threads after you start a render, but the threads should terminate after a short while (only a few seconds). If this isn't happening, that's a fault we need to correct.
I have seen the preview fail to update after changing parameters, so I know there are issues, and they might all be related. Now we've confirmed that moving nodes can also halt the preview or trigger an update (which it's not designed to do), we'll fix that.
The image you posted with the lighting anomaly in the clouds or atmosphere looks similar to what I've seen in a particular situation. This is when using the voxel options or 2D shadow map options in clouds, then I pause a render part way through, allow the preview to update a little, then unpause the render. Perhaps you did this, or perhaps if the preview is still running in the background when it shouldn't then I suppose this lighting anomaly could happen. The pausing/unpausing problem with the voxels and 2d shapow maps is something I've been meaning to fix anyway.
On the subject of CPU usage. Terragen, or even the system as a whole, cannot use more than 100% of your CPU's capacity. There is no such thing as spiking the CPU load above 100%.
Matt
On my PC when I hit the render button the preview render stops right away. If I pause the main render then the preview render start to render again until I un-pause the main one. This is make sense so I guess TG designed like this. Anything else probably a hardware problem or OS crap... ???
Quote from: jaf on January 02, 2015, 05:30:17 PM
Okay, here's another "pet peeve." I make a change in the preview window that requires I click on "Copy this view to the current render camera." Okay, I remember most of the time, but there's time I don't or am interrupted and forget. Well, I can just look a the icon, right? The images below show the difference in the left-most icon. Maybe a slow "blink" or a more radical change in the icon?
I agree that this needs to be clearer. It used to be clearer on Windows XP (but maybe only in the Classic theme, I forget), but on Vista and newer the distinction is very hard to see.
Matt
Quote from: archonforest on January 09, 2015, 11:13:41 AM
On my PC when I hit the render button the preview render stops right away. If I pause the main render then the preview render start to render again until I un-pause the main one. This is make sense so I guess TG designed like this. Anything else probably a hardware problem or OS crap... ???
Yes, that's what it's designed to do.
Matt
Quote from: Matt on January 09, 2015, 11:18:58 AM
Quote from: jaf on January 02, 2015, 05:30:17 PM
Okay, here's another "pet peeve." I make a change in the preview window that requires I click on "Copy this view to the current render camera." Okay, I remember most of the time, but there's time I don't or am interrupted and forget. Well, I can just look a the icon, right? The images below show the difference in the left-most icon. Maybe a slow "blink" or a more radical change in the icon?
I agree that this needs to be clearer. It used to be clearer on Windows XP (but maybe only in the Classic theme, I forget), but on Vista and newer the distinction is very hard to see.
Matt
Hi Matt. Yes, I experimented at bit and it is clearer using some different themes. Maybe just adding a "!" in the icon. Or making it "blink".