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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: Dune on April 13, 2019, 05:30:55 am

Title: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 13, 2019, 05:30:55 am
Working on a new image, of which these are preliminary tests. It'll be a harbour, with this city wall in the background. Second render is PT.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 13, 2019, 08:57:53 am
Can anyone help me get a decent tuff wall? Stones preferably about 15cm high 40 wide, like the second photo. Maybe someone living near such walls is able to make a photo (in shadow), usable as texture?
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 13, 2019, 11:46:24 am
No Roman walls in upstate New York, I'm afraid. But maybe something here - this is my go-to texture site and as often as not has what I need:
https://www.textures.com/browse/bricks/11

A search for "tuff wall" on alamy.com also turned up some photos, but I'm sure you've already scoured the web. It's hard to find large brick wall files to avoid repetition.

Nice fortification. Your model?
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 13, 2019, 12:38:26 pm
Thanks Steve. Good of you to remind me of that site. I've got a login, so I had another search. And yes, I've just built it, along with some ships I need. They all still need work though.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 13, 2019, 04:11:09 pm
Sorry - Although we have an old Roman bath in our region, I suspect that the foundation (more is not left) does not provide good textures.

Test 2 seem close to the reality in my eyes. I am looking forward to what comes here. Roman harbour sounds so good!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: WAS on April 14, 2019, 01:48:46 am
I like #3's brickwork the best. Wish I could help with the wall textures  but nothing around me that old.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 14, 2019, 11:33:28 am
Quote from: Dune on April 13, 2019, 08:57:53 am
Can anyone help me get a decent tuff wall? Stones preferably about 15cm high 40 wide, like the second photo. Maybe someone living near such walls is able to make a photo (in shadow), usable as texture?


How about these:

https://freepbr.com/materials/old-stone-wall-pbr-material/

https://3dtextures.me/2018/02/11/brick-wall-009/
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 15, 2019, 01:42:32 am
Thanks Bobby, I didn't know those sites yet. Doug helped me with some textures too, and I think I've found something that will suit for now. We'll see what the client thinks, after I've done the whole harbour. This is just a (bit extended) test for background stuff. Path traced by the way.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: mhaze on April 15, 2019, 04:35:33 am
Great start, really looking forward to the development of this.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Hannes on April 15, 2019, 09:47:05 am
Looks great!
(wish I could read latin... ;))
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: otakar on April 15, 2019, 01:57:08 pm
I get so excited every time I see a new Dune thread. There's bound to be some amazing stuff. Never disappoints me :)

The walls look great already. Being able to model stuff up yourself is such a giant advantage. Love the horse, too and its natural pose.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: WAS on April 15, 2019, 03:28:57 pm
Quote from: Dune on April 15, 2019, 01:42:32 am
Thanks Bobby, I didn't know those sites yet. Doug helped me with some textures too, and I think I've found something that will suit for now. We'll see what the client thinks, after I've done the whole harbour. This is just a (bit extended) test for background stuff. Path traced by the way.


Far more realistic of a fort which wouldn't be too concerned with uniform artistic brickwork. So the bricks would likely be sources from whatever material readily available.

PT seems to be doing a great job with the barrels and the gateway.

Any reflection on the stone? The geometry seems to be missing a bit of lighting from ambient sources and highlight reflection.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2019, 01:59:03 am
Thanks for your support, guys. Yes, it's great to be able to model stuff. Years ago I couldn't model at all, and had to rely on others, but some of the people on this forum encouraged getting my hands on it, and I'm really glad.
So yesterday I made a Roman amfora, and put a bunch together as 5x2m rows, procedurally textured. Nice for in that harbour later on. Testing here. PT really does a great job at the shadowed areas. Now I can only wish it to be as fast as RT  ;) , especially for big final renders (this took only 1hr, RT 21mins). The only thing different is slightly more dirt on the RT walls.
The horse is a rigged  DAZ horse, with added homemade stuff (not as detailed as Steve's though).
There's no reflection on the stones, and I guess you're right that this kind of stone needs a bit. Actually they built the 80cm walls of various stones (depos from the glaciers), and added a layer of neatly cut tuff to finish it, but it's hard to find the exact tuff stone in a decent size. Hope they settle for this.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Hannes on April 16, 2019, 02:04:52 am
What a difference! Looks great!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: mhaze on April 16, 2019, 04:24:07 am
Amazing! The modelling is excellent and beautifully textured.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2019, 06:05:30 am
Some more tests, as I was struggling with the normals. Maybe the way I build the windows is not very good (especially the curved window tops add some elongated tripled polys in the walls).
So I didn't recalculate the normals for the walls in Poseray, but found that the texture is then added in a different way, which I didn't realize.

Also, importing a bump map in the default shader gives a different result from an image map import (fed into function slot). In another thread I read about adding lineair bump would be better than non-lineair, so I tested that. There is indeed a difference, and I think I prefer the lineair input, which is a bit softer. But in the default shader there's no way to set lineair, and this might be an interesting addition (Matt?).
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 16, 2019, 11:51:42 am
This is a very interesting test, Ulco. Thank you for posting. Some of the differences are quite subtle, so I'll be downloading these to take a closer look in Photoshop.

QuoteBut in the default shader there's no way to set linear, and this might be an interesting addition (Matt?).


I've often wished for this, too, but have hesitated to ask because it seems the default shader is intended to be just that - "default" - and if you want the extra capability you can add an image map shader. But when you have many images in a shading network this adds time and complexity. (I try to use linear for everything, diffuse as well as displacement.)

May I ask what bit depth you're using for the displacement maps?

And thanks for showing us your model in-progress. it does look like some things may be going on there with the normals. In Maya I would unlock the normals to fix that, which is probably similar to recalculate in PoseRay.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2019, 02:54:15 am
I actually don't know why the default shader is called just that, but I'm used to the terminology now. It's used in all objects, and it's far more work to import image maps for each, so I would welcome an extra button. So, diffuse too, mmm, never tried that.
Bit depth is 8, which would give 256 gradations. I think that would be enough for a few millimeters/centimeters of bump. Are you using more bits?

Working from Lightwave I have to unmerge all points or my texture maps go awry in Poseray, stretched strangely sometimes. Then in PR I change all groups to materials, merge points and recalculate normals for each material (some of course need higher angles, like draped cloth). Standard is 35º. Maybe recalculating isn't even necessary, but the texture (as said) comes on differently then.
But with walls you also have inset windows, where I mostly use only one 45º angled polygon to soften that angle a bit. So then I need to increase the normal angle, and sometimes get into trouble if some areas in one material should be 'flat', others have a corner to soften.
But now I knifed the areas just above the windows once more and got rid of the nasty 'shadows' in those elongated triangular polys. Though I probably should have built it differently from the start. I still have to learn a lot, I guess.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: masonspappy on April 17, 2019, 07:49:26 am
The modeling has come along nicely. Wonderful job with this!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 17, 2019, 10:21:27 am
Very nice details work, Ulco.

There's something I obviousliy don't understand (as "non-modeller" ;) ): Is the render with the "nonrecalculated normals" what you intend? I like this one more. When I don't recalculate normals I mostly get exactly the opposite effect in my TG renders. So I need to recalculate normals in most cases to avoid strange curves in the polygons.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 17, 2019, 10:39:06 am
Quote from: Dune on April 15, 2019, 01:42:32 am
Thanks Bobby, I didn't know those sites yet. Doug helped me with some textures too, and I think I've found something that will suit for now. We'll see what the client thinks, after I've done the whole harbour. This is just a (bit extended) test for background stuff. Path traced by the way.


welcome and LOL at "Hey, vermin, that out of the hole!"
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 17, 2019, 11:22:30 am
QuoteBit depth is 8, which would give 256 gradations. I think that would be enough for a few millimeters/centimeters of bump. Are you using more bits?


You're probably right. I use 32-bit for all displacements, mainly to standardize my workflow so I don't have to decide whether something needs to be 8 or 32. Probably overkill. But the file sizes aren't that much different (32-bit exr v. 8-bit tif) and I have noticed a difference even with small displacements on things like tree bark.

Converting an existing texture file, straight up, from 8 to 32 probably doesn't help - it just gives you 256 levels stored as floating point values. But if you start with a large working file, convert, then downsample (say from 4k to 1k) the intermediate values get interpolated and you'll get less banding. If you start out with 32 bit of course it's much better.

Pardon the digression. This is a really fine model, Ulco. You have such an eye for detail. Love the ceilings and interior details that show through the windows, and the surface is looking great.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2019, 11:42:22 am
With the not recalculated normals you get the normals that were made in Lightwave, but sometimes I wish to alter those. Indeed I also liked that non-recalculted more, the other one is just no good. But I got it fixed now, made some more polys, also on corners, so now some are soft and some are flat. I also doubled the ceiling/floor, so now that has depth too (and two different textures). And it seems even less light is getting through into those rooms, which is good.

I think it's rare to get hold of 32-bit bump/displacement maps, hence my use of only 8-bit. These I make from photo's (like bark) in Pixplant, saved as greyscale. Only the Megascans (and such) come with 32-bit displacement maps, I guess.
I don't know if you would really see that difference (except maybe really close-up), working from a large file and downsizing in 32-bit or 8-bit. It would be an interesting test! For me low MB's is still a goal too, I wouldn't like to have my scenes crashing over too many gigs if the files get a little large in textures/objects.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 17, 2019, 12:42:10 pm
QuoteI don't know if you would really see that difference (except maybe really close-up), working from a large file and downsizing in 32-bit or 8-bit. It would be an interesting test!


Agreed! If I have time this weekend I'll do that.

Bottom line is that you have come up with a process that works for you. The results speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 19, 2019, 01:36:32 am
Another part of the illustration would be militairy ships. Small ones, luckily, for the streams and harbour were very shallow. Problems arise inevitably, such as making a decent mask to lower/delete the water where the hull is. It's not good enough yet, obviously. Also the inner and outer hull have the same texture, so any wetness on the outside will be on the inside (but that's easily remedied).
And then these rowers, pfff. I didn't particularly like to make so many (not paid enough to do that), so I copied them and rotated heads (pulled out noses and such too) and moved them about a slight bit in ZBrush. They could be shaved slaves, ha, because hair is another matter. I also had to reduce the initial guy, or I would crash my apps.
Pathtrace of this took too long, so this is an RT test.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 19, 2019, 08:15:01 am
The only problem I encounter is that a mask will not work properly if a hull is angled. As soon as  a wave is higher or lower than the height at which the mask works perfectly, gaps or water appears. So I needed some extra painted shader strokes (which would of course be impossible for animations).
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 19, 2019, 08:39:50 am
This is where a boolean operator for surface intersections might come in handy.

Your crew looks good. Nice touch on the small wakes beneath the oars.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 19, 2019, 01:09:40 pm
one of the ancient Romans on the right side is wearing a ball cap? LOL
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 19, 2019, 01:11:53 pm
Quote from: Dune on April 19, 2019, 01:36:32 am
Another part of the illustration would be militairy ships. Small ones, luckily, for the streams and harbour were very shallow. Problems arise inevitably, such as making a decent mask to lower/delete the water where the hull is. It's not good enough yet, obviously. Also the inner and outer hull have the same texture, so any wetness on the outside will be on the inside (but that's easily remedied).
And then these rowers, pfff. I didn't particularly like to make so many (not paid enough to do that), so I copied them and rotated heads (pulled out noses and such too) and moved them about a slight bit in ZBrush. They could be shaved slaves, ha, because hair is another matter. I also had to reduce the initial guy, or I would crash my apps.
Pathtrace of this took too long, so this is an RT test.


I'd say an encouraging test render...Big LIKE
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 20, 2019, 06:32:02 am
Big effort! Nice result so far!

...why not place a hidden easter egg like one slave wearing a tshirt of a well-known rowing team... ;)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 20, 2019, 07:22:03 am
 ;D I don't know if the client would appreciate that.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 20, 2019, 10:42:47 am
Quote from: DocCharly65 on April 20, 2019, 06:32:02 am
Big effort! Nice result so far!

...why not place a hidden easter egg like one slave wearing a tshirt of a well-known rowing team... ;)


ha ha ha ha ha, you bad Nils....LOL
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 21, 2019, 04:06:10 am
I got a little bit of difference in these guys now (by RGB image map mask). Not perfect, but it's for distance anyway.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 21, 2019, 05:10:26 am
more than adequate I'd say...good stuff
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 22, 2019, 01:16:19 am
Another figure to attend the party.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 22, 2019, 03:09:07 am
Nice variations in the boat now, Ulco!
... and for those ages... nice girl. ;)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 22, 2019, 03:41:17 am
She'd be too old for you by now  ;D 18 centuries passed....
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 22, 2019, 03:44:54 am
Quote from: Dune on April 22, 2019, 03:41:17 am
She'd be too old for you by now  ;D 18 centuries passed....



... I don't understand what you mean at all -- that fits perfectly!!!   ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Hannes on April 22, 2019, 04:42:34 am
Great characters, Ulco!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 22, 2019, 08:21:17 am
Quote from: Hannes on April 22, 2019, 04:42:34 am
Great characters, Ulco!



echo
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 22, 2019, 08:46:05 am
Thanks. I fitted the girl into the other PT test (just for the fun of it), but have to take out the translucency of the dress. I don't like the hard edged light-darker areas (circled).
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 22, 2019, 09:15:22 am
Poly edges? Or just hard-edged shadows?

Otherwise, the scene is coming together nicely.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 22, 2019, 09:40:58 am
It's the difference in lighting between shadowed parts and translucent parts, not polys, luckily. But I got it fixed now, and also some not so nice wrinkles and folds.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: j meyer on April 22, 2019, 12:02:16 pm
Nice variations of the rowing guys.
The woman is nice, too, but there's one thing that seems to be wrong,
at least to my eyes, the left side (seen from the viewer) of the belt is
too far out and doesn't fit the curve of the body, I think. It sould be
moved a bit in (to the right) to be correct.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Oshyan on April 22, 2019, 08:46:06 pm
Funny, I thought she looked better in the test. One of your better figures actually. Once incorporated into the scene she's rather dark and shiny in my view.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 22, 2019, 11:39:38 pm
Quote from: Oshyan on April 22, 2019, 08:46:06 pm
Funny, I thought she looked better in the test. One of your better figures actually. Once incorporated into the scene she's rather dark and shiny in my view.
- Oshyan
[/quote

Me as well
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 23, 2019, 02:13:01 am
I see what you mean, Jochen, and I agree, so I'm gonna do the sequence again (ZB-PR-TG). The test was an RT render, in the scene (PT) I darkened her skin a bit and blackened her hair almost, but the rest hasn't been touched. I could take a little shine off.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 23, 2019, 09:06:26 am
More better...
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Agura Nata on April 23, 2019, 10:04:14 am
Great stuff!

Since I used to work a lot for museums and the Romans were with us in Regensburg it is a great topic :)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: René on April 23, 2019, 10:43:04 am
Looks good. The only thing, and now I'm nitpicking, are the lady's nails. It would be nice if they were a little lighter than the skin, and had a little more shine, especially since she is close up.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 23, 2019, 11:32:28 am
I could also give her painted nails. I'm sure the Romans did that. I'll have a look at the maps. Next lady on her way....
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 24, 2019, 11:30:16 am
Am I going too fast? They don't need to be all beautiful  ;)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Lady of the Lake on April 24, 2019, 11:52:01 am
Who am I to suggest something in one of your SUPER scenes, but this last lady in white....her toes stick out over her sandals by quite a bit.  ???  Love watching you develop these things.  I am in awe.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: j meyer on April 24, 2019, 12:09:07 pm
Definitely improved.
The others are nice, too.
Are they done with DazStudio originally?
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 25, 2019, 01:23:35 am
The sandals actually dive underground. Something I have to adapt indeed. And yes, Jochen, it's DAZ originally. Not too bad at all as a start, IMHO. The most work goes into getting folds in clothing right in ZB, still learning bits now and then. And the hair is a pain. And then there's time, can't spend all my time on one person, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 25, 2019, 04:30:05 am
Quote from: Dune on April 24, 2019, 11:30:16 am
Am I going too fast? They don't need to be all beautiful  ;)



Correct ;D
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 26, 2019, 12:16:54 pm
Some corrections needed...
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 26, 2019, 01:01:58 pm
Perhaps. But one of your best figures, I'd say.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: masonspappy on April 27, 2019, 07:38:57 am
Wow - I've used the DAZ figures occasionally (dress them up in Blender), but never achieved a look as good as this!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 27, 2019, 07:59:28 am
I made some morphs of the basic Genesis figure in ZBrush, so I can alter the heads in DAZ. Works quite well.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 27, 2019, 11:58:51 am
Here's the head. I guess it's getting boring by now, so I'll stop posting these guys.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on April 27, 2019, 12:37:35 pm
good one and I doubt anyone's bored...nice to "be in the room" with you as it were.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: masonspappy on April 28, 2019, 05:23:11 am
Quote from: bobbystahr on April 27, 2019, 12:37:35 pm
good one and I doubt anyone's bored...nice to "be in the room" with you as it were.

Ditto....
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 28, 2019, 08:43:49 am
Quote from: masonspappy on April 28, 2019, 05:23:11 am
Quote from: bobbystahr on April 27, 2019, 12:37:35 pm
good one and I doubt anyone's bored...nice to "be in the room" with you as it were.

Ditto....


echo :)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on April 28, 2019, 10:25:58 am
Okay then, here's another guy...
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: sboerner on April 28, 2019, 12:29:43 pm
Rough lookin' bunch. Wouldn't want to meet these guys in a dark alley.

Wonderful detail - keep them coming.

Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on April 29, 2019, 11:51:37 am
Quote from: sboerner on April 28, 2019, 12:29:43 pm
Rough lookin' bunch. Wouldn't want to meet these guys in a dark alley.

Wonderful detail – keep them coming.




What else can I say... :)
... I need a hotkey for the words "echo", "dito" and "great work" :)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 01, 2019, 01:52:33 am
Still needing work too.... the soldier is really an oldie, so due to be taken care of.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: archonforest on May 01, 2019, 05:16:10 am
Very nice. One little comment. The leg of the soldier at the far right looks shaved. It is possible to put some hair on it or something? Just to make him a bit more Man-like...  :P
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 01, 2019, 05:34:16 am
Thanks, yes that guy needs work. Clothing has no folds and wrinkles either, helmet is no good, etc.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 01, 2019, 10:22:23 am
Fixed the old soldier  ;) Path trace, so the eyes are too dark still.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on May 01, 2019, 10:31:06 am
great hair though
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Hannes on May 01, 2019, 10:41:36 am
Yes, these guys all look great!
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 01, 2019, 10:44:20 am
I'm a bit reluctant to make them really heavy, hence the lesser quality mostly. This guy has better hair, but some of them are 100MB already, which is much for my standards up to now at least.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Lady of the Lake on May 01, 2019, 12:01:51 pm
Maybe put a "spark of life" in their eyes?
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 02, 2019, 01:00:57 am
I miss that sometimes, but mostly the sun is quite high so the brows shadow any sparks out.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on May 02, 2019, 09:42:39 am
Quote from: Dune on May 02, 2019, 01:00:57 am
I miss that sometimes, but mostly the sun is quite high so the brows shadow any sparks out.


though not a neanderthal my eyebrows do that as well heh heh heh
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 04, 2019, 01:50:44 am
That's what they're for  :P

Anyway, a new lady (Stone Age, kind of) and a new kid, and some altered Romans, and some quick tests messing around a bit. Put her in a cave (inverted cube) with a soft light source for the fun of it. Path traced one (where the strange cracks are visible), the other is RT. The cloth (and skin faults) are a mix of image map shaders with different resizing (not world) transform shaders, but all set to UV.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: luvsmuzik on May 04, 2019, 11:27:45 am
Each little tidbit another wonder....great to see this evolve! :)
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on May 04, 2019, 11:54:41 am
well done, especially on the clothing texturing man and I love the bemused expression on her face, made me chuckle for some reason.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: Dune on May 05, 2019, 01:53:06 am
They had mushrooms in the Stone Age too.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: bobbystahr on May 05, 2019, 09:34:55 am
Quote from: Dune on May 05, 2019, 01:53:06 am
They had mushrooms in the Stone Age too.



ha ha ha ha ha, eggs ackley my friend...just my thoughts on the expression.
Title: Re: Roman harbour
Post by: DocCharly65 on May 13, 2019, 06:06:35 am
I like the 4th variation most... curious to the final scene!