Planetside Software Forums

General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: gasbutan on November 27, 2019, 04:36:41 pm

Title: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on November 27, 2019, 04:36:41 pm
After some successful discussions on optics and underwater effects one more render:

LRM_EXPORT_701637261500303_20191127_223525880.jpeg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: bobbystahr on November 27, 2019, 06:17:31 pm
nicely done, great caustics effect.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on November 28, 2019, 02:01:48 am
Very cool render! You managed a very nice balance between under and above water. Refraction at 1.33? Have you tried 3 shifted suns already? And soft shadows might give a softer shadow of the fish.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on November 28, 2019, 02:40:45 am
Thank you both.

Yes, refraction is set to 1.33.
I tried the 3 suns already here:
https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,27277.msg271199.html#msg271199

Soft shadows are a good idea, I will try it.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: DocCharly65 on November 29, 2019, 01:32:39 pm
Great looking result!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Ariel DK on November 30, 2019, 12:16:22 pm
Woow! how did you done that? any hint? :o
Many users literally fighted with this issue for years... Nice work!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on November 30, 2019, 01:13:29 pm
Here is a clip file for the water.
An imagefile for the caustics can easily be found in the web.

Have fun experimenting. ;D

water_with_caustics.tgc
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Ariel DK on December 01, 2019, 02:39:56 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on November 30, 2019, 01:13:29 pmHere is a clip file for the water.
An imagefile for the caustics can easily be found in the web.

Have fun experimenting. ;D

water_with_caustics.tgc
Oh, thanks a lot!
I will take a look later...
Waiting to see more of your work around here :)
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 01, 2019, 05:27:25 pm
Another version....

tg4_004c.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 02, 2019, 02:30:37 am
Wonderful! You have some beautiful fish, and its reflection is great. One thing; there's grain in the sky. I wonder if you cut off your underwater cloud at water level, or does it extend a little above water? Then that might cause grain because of the transparency and maybe low RDM (Ray detail multiplier in render settings). Don't know for sure.
Otherwise it might be atmo quality settings.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 02, 2019, 06:17:37 am
Thank you, Dune.
You're right. The cloud extends the water surface. Something I should improve.

Btw: the fish are for free:
https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/free-tropical-fish-pack-3d-model/652729
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Oshyan on December 02, 2019, 02:52:44 pm
As far as I know RDM should not affect noise, it controls geometry subdivision density. Noise sampling is separate. (Matt may correct me :D) I'm not sure if a cloud extending below the water surface should have any effect either. Sampling atmospherics through water may make sampling more difficult, that's a possibility. It may also just be that some render settings are not optimal and are undersampling the atmosphere and clouds, whether due to low AA, high Pixel Noise Threshold, low atmo/cloud sample levels, or something else. The original (first) image also had a fair amount of noise in the atmo. Post processing may also be bringing out the noise more.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 03, 2019, 02:00:43 am
With default or near default settings a blue sky is never grainy, so if that's the case it should have to do with the water itself. I have often seen reflections of clouds being more grainy than the clouds themselves too. Hence my suspicion.
And I actually mean cloud extending above water (doing the hazy underwater distance), not underwater. That would probably contain more grain as it's denser and if that extends a meter or so above water level, it could be enhanced into real grain.... somehow.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 03, 2019, 12:56:25 pm
Here is the render with a thinner cloud layer.
Edge sharpness is set to 100, the upper level has the same height as the water surface.
Still grainy, but less visible because of the darker sky.

tg4_004d.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 04, 2019, 01:58:10 am
The underwater murk/cloud has no grain, just the sky. Have you tried (a crop) with a RDM at 1? Any difference then? Maybe the cloud and atmo settings just need higher values?
How did you do the underwater cloud anyway? I just increased density, not edge sharpness, and used no density fractal as input, and no taper top and base.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: DocCharly65 on December 04, 2019, 02:00:07 am
Very, very impressing result!

Can it be that this fish has more polygons than others from older renders? Somehow it looks better.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 04, 2019, 03:58:23 pm
Quote from: Dune on December 04, 2019, 01:58:10 amThe underwater murk/cloud has no grain, just the sky. Have you tried (a crop) with a RDM at 1? Any difference then? Maybe the cloud and atmo settings just need higher values?
How did you do the underwater cloud anyway? I just increased density, not edge sharpness, and used no density fractal as input, and no taper top and base.
RDM is already set to 1.
The underwater cloud has a density of 0.05 and also no density fractal.
Taper top and base are ON, but both values set to 0.
Cloud quality is 0.55.
Number of samples of the Atmosphere is 16.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 04, 2019, 04:00:12 pm
Quote from: DocCharly65 on December 04, 2019, 02:00:07 amVery, very impressing result!

Can it be that this fish has more polygons than others from older renders? Somehow it looks better.
Thank you!

The number of polygons of the fish is more or less the same, but you're right. The last one looks much better.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: QuinlanG on December 04, 2019, 10:04:44 pm
stunning image, it's always nice to see boundaries pushed as to what can be done

Quinlan
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 05, 2019, 02:03:00 am
Your values sound okay, but there's no grain underwater, just in the blue sky. Quality of 16 should do (if not for the glass shader), but what if you raise that to 32 (or even higher)? So I still think glass somehow increases grain.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 06:01:03 am
Quote from: QuinlanG on December 04, 2019, 10:04:44 pmstunning image, it's always nice to see boundaries pushed as to what can be done

Quinlan
thx !
I think we are still far away from reaching the boundaries in TG  ;D
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Hannes on December 05, 2019, 08:00:15 am
Amazing stuff!!!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 10:07:36 am
... a minimalist variant that shows the water effects particularly well:


tg4_005a.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: mhaze on December 05, 2019, 10:50:21 am
Stunning Work!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: WAS on December 05, 2019, 03:05:36 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 10:07:36 am... a minimalist variant that shows the water effects particularly well:


tg4_005a.jpg

Looks pretty good. Caustics are entirely too small and don't match surface though. When they reflect on such large smooth shapes on the water surface it kinda looks wrong to me. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 05:06:50 pm
Quote from: WAS on December 05, 2019, 03:05:36 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 10:07:36 am... a minimalist variant that shows the water effects particularly well:


tg4_005a.jpg

Looks pretty good. Caustics are entirely too small and don't match surface though. When they reflect on such large smooth shapes on the water surface it kinda looks wrong to me. Just my opinion though.


thx for your comment.
This was one the reference photos I used:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-underwater-artistic-view-of-mediterranean-shallow-waters-tilted-view-176298203.html

The relatively small custic pattern comes from the wide angle lens (which I also used in the render).
And there no visible connection between the waves and the pattern.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 05:34:34 pm
Quote from: Dune on December 05, 2019, 02:03:00 amYour values sound okay, but there's no grain underwater, just in the blue sky. Quality of 16 should do (if not for the glass shader), but what if you raise that to 32 (or even higher)? So I still think glass somehow increases grain.
I think you're right.
I did a test render without the surface card and without the glass shader:  less grain.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 05:37:31 pm
here are the crops:

t1.jpg

t2.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: WAS on December 05, 2019, 06:39:32 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 05:37:31 pmhere are the crops:

t1.jpg

t2.jpg

Have you tried slowly playing with the Voxel scattering quality? The default 100 may be too low. I use 150-200
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 06, 2019, 01:49:38 am
I would still be interested why that happens, though, glass shader causing more grain.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 06, 2019, 02:29:10 am
Quote from: Dune on December 06, 2019, 01:49:38 amI would still be interested why that happens, though, glass shader causing more grain.
Could it be "specular roughness", which is set to 0.01 by default ?
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 06, 2019, 02:32:24 am
I don't think so, but you could try a crop with a zero. Btw. did you use pathtrace or standard renderer?
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 06, 2019, 02:36:01 am
Quote from: Dune on December 06, 2019, 02:32:24 amI don't think so, but you could try a crop with a zero. Btw. did you use pathtrace or standard renderer?
Standard render
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 07, 2019, 04:45:09 am
... and now: the fisheye lens  ;D

tg4_005c.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Dune on December 07, 2019, 05:57:41 am
Very cool!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: QuinlanG on December 07, 2019, 08:16:46 am
Really like the fisheye view, splendid image.

Quinlan
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: j meyer on December 07, 2019, 11:47:29 am
Very nice images. 8)
Keep experimenting.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 07, 2019, 03:03:42 pm
Quote from: Dune on December 06, 2019, 02:32:24 amI don't think so, but you could try a crop with a zero. Btw. did you use pathtrace or standard renderer?
You're right, setting specular roughness to zero doesn't help.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 07, 2019, 03:19:17 pm
Quote from: WAS on December 05, 2019, 06:39:32 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on December 05, 2019, 05:37:31 pmhere are the crops:

t1.jpg

t2.jpg

Have you tried slowly playing with the Voxel scattering quality? The default 100 may be too low. I use 150-200

I tried with voxel scattering quality 160, no difference...
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Ariel DK on December 07, 2019, 06:10:48 pm
You should try 400 or 500, sounds crazy but worked for me.
I believe that your problem is due that your cloud layer in the sky is visible through your "underwater" cloud layer.
I'm just guessing but, one never know... try a crop for yourself ;)
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Oshyan on December 07, 2019, 06:13:33 pm
Mm, yes I forgot exactly how this setup was working. So if you're looking at the whole scene through a very thin cloud layer you'll need higher quality for that layer and/or higher voxel scatter quality. But note that voxel scatter quality "mostly" affects noise levels in areas of, er, scattered light, so it *may* not be what's needed here. I'd increase cloud Ray Marching Quality to 2, and try Voxel Scatter at 400. It's definitely not a crazy value, in fact we raised the default to 100 a little while ago, and I'm tempted to raise it again...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: cyphyr on December 07, 2019, 07:21:26 pm
missed this, wow, great work!
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 08, 2019, 04:16:57 pm
Quote from: Oshyan on December 07, 2019, 06:13:33 pmMm, yes I forgot exactly how this setup was working. So if you're looking at the whole scene through a very thin cloud layer you'll need higher quality for that layer and/or higher voxel scatter quality. But note that voxel scatter quality "mostly" affects noise levels in areas of, er, scattered light, so it *may* not be what's needed here. I'd increase cloud Ray Marching Quality to 2, and try Voxel Scatter at 400. It's definitely not a crazy value, in fact we raised the default to 100 a little while ago, and I'm tempted to raise it again...

- Oshyan
Thank you, Oshyan.
I tried with voxel scatter 500 and ray marching quality 2 .... much better now !
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: WAS on December 08, 2019, 11:49:53 pm
Quote from: Oshyan on December 07, 2019, 06:13:33 pmMm, yes I forgot exactly how this setup was working. So if you're looking at the whole scene through a very thin cloud layer you'll need higher quality for that layer and/or higher voxel scatter quality. But note that voxel scatter quality "mostly" affects noise levels in areas of, er, scattered light, so it *may* not be what's needed here. I'd increase cloud Ray Marching Quality to 2, and try Voxel Scatter at 400. It's definitely not a crazy value, in fact we raised the default to 100 a little while ago, and I'm tempted to raise it again...

- Oshyan

My default project is at 150 and unless I'm doing bizarre stuff like warping the sky with my own ocean, or doing heavy haze both clouds and sky are noiseless. I noticed "slight" grain when default 100 was exported to even 100% quality jpeg or PNG, besides the normal bit banding.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Ariel DK on December 13, 2019, 12:35:27 pm
Quote from: gasbutan on November 30, 2019, 01:13:29 pmHere is a clip file for the water.
An imagefile for the caustics can easily be found in the web.

Have fun experimenting. ;D

water_with_caustics.tgc

I can't see anything, and there is 3 unknown parameters in the cards setup nodes.
this is probably because you are working in V4.44, and im still in 4.3 :( it seem like i gonna missing this one for now...
thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: gasbutan on December 14, 2019, 05:34:18 am
Here is a basic setup which works with 4.3. (I used 4.3.23)

underwater_basic.tgd
caustic_imagemap.jpg
underwater_basic.jpg
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: DocCharly65 on December 16, 2019, 04:14:49 am
Thanks for sharing that! I am sure some day I'll give it a try :)
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Stormlord on December 16, 2019, 07:16:31 am
Thank you very much for sharing!
I really like this scene, very beautiful.

STORMLORD
Title: Re: Underwater again
Post by: Ariel DK on December 16, 2019, 10:32:36 am
Quote from: gasbutan on December 14, 2019, 05:34:18 amHere is a basic setup which works with 4.3. (I used 4.3.23)

underwater_basic.tgd
caustic_imagemap.jpg
underwater_basic.jpg
wow man, thank you very much!
I'm working in a very deep Underwater scene, take a look when you want :)