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General => Terragen Discussion => Topic started by: homebroo on October 30, 2008, 05:01:35 AM

Title: Computer Lockup
Post by: homebroo on October 30, 2008, 05:01:35 AM
Very new to Terragen 2 and in some ways extremely disappointed.   :(

It looks like a fabulous program but its taken me over 3 hours to generate and render one image...far too long.

Also at the completion of  it all the computer froze and required a reboot...no good at all. >:(

The learning has gone by the time I can use the program again and I see but one course of action...stick with V 9 until this is tidied up. :-\

So for the time being its uninstall for me and go back to V 9 combined with other image management programs.
What will the final version bring?...satisfaction hopefully...or is it just me?

I turn 61 in a weeks time and it seems like I will be that age by the time a flashy render is complete. :D

Any suggestions?,... I'm running a 3.4 gig dual core and 512 meg of RAM. :'(
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: reck on October 30, 2008, 06:02:42 AM
Hi homebroo

You really think 3 hours is a long time? I suppose it depends on what settings you're using but 3 hours doesn't seem long to me. Most of my "final" renders take much longer than that.

Maybe if you can post what settings you are using we can see if 3 hours is reasonable or not. Things like resolution, details level, sample levels for clouds and atmosphere, if your using soft shadows etc.

You can get quick results when your setting up a scene by using low resolutions or higher resolutions with crop renders. Then when your ready to render the final scene ramp the settings up then leave it going. I leave mine going when i'm work or while i'm sleeping.

One other thing. 512MB of memory is not a lot. Once you start using larger resolutions with a few populations that memory won't get you far. I have 4GB in my system and I run out of memory every now and again.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: PG on October 30, 2008, 09:08:33 AM
homebroo, there is a quick render preset under the render tab, if you increase the resolution on this one a bit you can get a quick render to see how it's going. Unless you have an insanely complex scene of dense clouds and populations this should only take a few minutes, also reducing GI settings, turning off ray tracing, detail settings and atmosphere samples will speed up your render although the first two will alter the lighting of your scene so it will look a bit different. But you have to remember that Terragen 2 is a LOT more advanced than 0.9. Average medium complexity scenes will take around 20 hours to render for final versions, that's why you need to find a quality setting that is quick enough for you and is still high enough quality that you can see the changes you've made. High resolution, high detail renders aren't designed for early testing of scenes, only for finalized scenes.
As far as the memory requirement. For more complex scenes you will require more memory, but because it is of yet a 32 bit application you are limited to 4GB even on a x64 operating system.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: mr-miley on October 30, 2008, 11:17:00 AM
Homebroo

Hi there. My longest render so far was 138 hours for a 1024xwhatever pic. This was at quality 1 with 128 samples for atmo and both cloud layers etc.... There are other people here who have managed longer than that  ;D

Miles
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: PG on October 30, 2008, 01:22:47 PM
Wasn't there someone posting a 3 month render a while back? :D That pic was insane though. I think it's one of the IOTWs.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: Aagam on October 30, 2008, 01:53:24 PM
Quote from: PG on October 30, 2008, 01:22:47 PM
Wasn't there someone posting a 3 month render a while back? :D That pic was insane though. I think it's one of the IOTWs.

Good lord, got a link?
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: rcallicotte on October 30, 2008, 02:49:30 PM
I don't think there has been a 3 month render where the entire render lasted three months.

I had a 700+ hour render once, but that isn't the longest.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: choronr on October 30, 2008, 03:06:38 PM
If quick and easy is your goal, then, you first better consider patience; and, you'll need some of it here. Ideas of a scene seem to develop as you create. Knowing the program takes a lot of experimentation; and, reading through the forum and picking up tips and files from others. I've used Terragen 0.09 for several years before getting proficient with the program - now, with Terragen 2, I've worked with it for almost a year and have barely scratched the surface of the capabilities.

My suggestion to you is to go slowly; and, when stumped, try the forum. There are many knowledgeable people here; and, the Planetside staff will usually answer your questions. Give it some time!
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: FrankB on October 30, 2008, 05:10:01 PM
My fellow TG2 friends,

my private opinion: prancing on "who had the longest render" doesn't impress me much, or anyone, I daresay. There's no pride to be taken from pumping up a render to last forever. Instead, I'd be impressed if you had an example of a fantastic render with a rather little render time, achieved by clever scene design, network design and optimized render settings. Go ahead and name a few examples, which can eventually convince the instigator of this thread to give it another go, and not scare him away :-P

Frank
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: PG on October 30, 2008, 05:10:52 PM
ok maybe 3 months was a bit overboard ;D
btw homebroo, could you post a half quality or quick render of your scene?
@Frank, sorry I've never had a final render less than 8 hours. But that's a final render which I'm guessing homebroo was doing rather than a lower quality one. As far as they go, I've managed to get same 8 hour finals to render in as little as 20 minutes with a lot of tweaking in atmo samples and detail/GI
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: buzzzzz1 on October 30, 2008, 06:44:58 PM
All I can add to this is: The Truth is the Truth. TGTP is a very slow renderer, has been from the start and still is, especially when rendering Volumetric Clouds. I would venture to say that many have given TGTP a try have pushed it to the side due to the long render times. If there was a secret formula, don't you think Matt would have written a tutorial or let his user base in on it to increase interest in TGTP and most importantly Sales?  Perhaps Matt will chime in on this thread??  PS- I don't like to brag about long render times either, because it is a little embarrassing.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: dandelO on October 30, 2008, 07:08:29 PM
Got to agree with Frank here. I personaly will not even start a render if I know it's going to take anywhere near the times reported here. I have made some apparently complexed looking scenes with some very reasonable render times. The longest render I've had to endure is 800x600=12hrs(free build). Even then, I could have probably gotten this down to around 2-4 hours with everything I've learned in the last year or so about tweaking and 'cheating' the renderer, and the eye.

Long render times are nothing to brag on, low ones are far more impressive in my opinion and TG2 is more than capable of doing speed. If you've not carried out the work in the scene setting don't just assume that pumping up GI/atmo/cloud/detail levels etc. will magically make the scene for you, all this is going to achieve is higher final detail over the good AND the bad parts of your scene. Keep things as low as is possible without compromising quality, you'll find the balance the more you play. Don't give up. :)
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: reck on October 30, 2008, 07:10:36 PM
Quote from: buzzzzz1 on October 30, 2008, 06:44:58 PM
TGTP is a very slow renderer, has been from the start and still is, especially when rendering Volumetric Clouds.

I used to always be waiting for clouds to finish rendering but I think the rendering speeds of clouds has been increased slightly in newer builds. I find that i'm waiting for water to render a lot more nowadays more than anything else.

I'm sure certain things could be turned off or turned down in the renderer to increase render times but then image quality would suffer. It must be tough trying to balance render times with image quality.

EDIT - Agree with what Frank said as well.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: PG on October 30, 2008, 07:17:40 PM
Jeez you guys no-one's bragging, we were joking. A 3 month render? You seriously think that's something I wanna brag about? I didn't even say it was mine, you guys need to chill.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: buzzzzz1 on October 30, 2008, 07:48:25 PM
I'm not going to get into a pissing match here. TG is an incredible piece of technology for the realism it can produce!  But the fact remains that the render times suck.  Why anyone would would want to render a small 800x600 image is beyond me. Enough from me, cheers.  :)
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: pfrancke on October 30, 2008, 08:56:06 PM
I would argue that rendering graphics is a very complex business.  And that TG2 is doing complicated stuff.  We are in the driver's seat and we pump in the parameters and it does what we tell it to - which is exactly what I like to see in software - we can do what we want to do.  The problem that I have with Tg2, Ummm, I mean with the "rendering business", ummmm, I guess I really mean with myself, is that I don't know how it works.

The lazy part of me says that this is a TG2 problem.  But it would probably be better to say that rendering is a complicated process, one that is difficult to learn - which in turn comes right back to me.  I'm a slow learner and have been fooling with this for over a year.  I've just scratched the surface and am mostly clueless and witless as I stumble along in the dark.  But I'll tell ya what!  I've had more fun and satisfaction with this software than with any other piece of software that I've ever owned.  Give it a shot man!
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: matrix2003 on October 30, 2008, 09:09:41 PM
Here Here!  My longest  Tâ„¢ -V 0.9.43 render, was 28 days !
Old computer, too much water, and NO EXPERIENCE. :P

My sig file used to read: "Terragen: the never ending learning curve"

  ( its gotten a lot better )
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: cyphyr on October 30, 2008, 09:21:21 PM
My longest render (one that I didn't abort!) would be about 27 hours and that was a while ago and on an earlier version.

I'm not completely happy with this one but it took only 16hours to render link (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4491.0;attach=12181;image), would probably be quicker to render it now. This  (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2453.0;attach=6536;image)one took 14 hours to render.

Neither of these times are too painful relay, I do have to sleep, work and eat sometimes.

What can be painful is how long it takes to develop a project, each of the above took over a month! It dose get quicker, the software gets better (so dose the hardware, my comp is MUCH faster than when TG2 first came out) and I get a better idea what I'm doing. I think Terragen will be a useful tool in our creative arsenal but it has never been intended to be an "App for all Seasons". Used wisely and with understanding it can produce incredible results.

Don't give up :)

Richard
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: dandelO on October 30, 2008, 10:08:02 PM
I'm not arguing here either, just chipping in.

PG: I didn't say you were bragging, just that huge render times like that are the opposite of optimal and not something that qualifies a good render, nothing directed at you at all, man. Chill. :)
Ha-ha! I have seen some render-time braggers around though, as if it's a thing to be proud of.

Jay: Unfortunately, a license fee is a little beyond me at the minute, this is why 800x600 is my max', not through choice, no need to get arsey. You say you won't get into a pissing match, fine, but it's this pomposity that usually creates your pissing matches. Time and time again. Maybe it's 'beyond you', I don't really care, you constantly prove you cannot get along in a civil way with other people who have different ideas than you do, not cool, man. :(
Go on, delete your account again and go running away to elsewhere to run your mouth about all the nasty, narrow-minded people over on the other side. Then, after a time, when you imagine everyone will have forgotten about your childish whining, come back and make 'buzzzzz2'(example). Works everytime, regardless of website/people/circumstances etc.
Christ, I bet that delete-finger is really twitching now!

Back to the point of this thread, and just as pfrancke says, aren't we all just stumbling along in the dark? I'm reasonably new to graphics in general, couple of years all in, and I agree, no package has given me as much satisfaction as TG2 has, even in it's hobbled, non-commercial state. Keep at it, homebroo, TG is The Future! I've seen it in my dreams. ;)

Sorry for the above, I can only stomach so much arrogance.





Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: cyphyr on October 30, 2008, 10:32:46 PM
err a bit touchy there maybe, I didn't take buzzzzz1 comments as particularly arrogant or whining, what gives ? Nobody wants to do a 800 x 600 render, do you? The license is not expensive (compared to the competition) and there are many ways of making a render bigger than 800 x 600 if you want to go to the effort, do a search on stitching.
I'm suprised frankly at the level of, er, debate that this has generated, the reason that homebroo's render locked up is simple, only 512mb ram, buy yourself some more ram my friend or better still a faster comp and everyone else, just chill :)
happy rendering
richard
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: PG on October 30, 2008, 10:36:33 PM
Anyone wanna smoke the rest of this? :D Matt's mentioned in the Beta announcement that there are improvements to the render preview which mean that we won't necessarily have to render knock down images to see how our render will look. I think this is definately a good thing to update because as many of you will have experienced, the render preview doesn't actually look the same as your scene until about 60 percent. As far as actual render times, can't remember offhand but I'm sure there's improvements in render time too.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: cyphyr on October 30, 2008, 10:40:23 PM
hmm, what, oh yeah right man, far out, thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: buzzzzz1 on October 30, 2008, 10:46:01 PM
dandelO -- I think that was uncalled for and no I'm not going anywhere.  100 bucks might fix your soft spot. I have a few I can donate if anyone else wants to chip in , maybe we can come up with enough for dandelO  a key.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: dandelO on October 30, 2008, 10:51:40 PM
No thanks.
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: Oshyan on October 30, 2008, 11:08:46 PM
The preview improvements are probably not going to blow you away, unfortunately. After the release, we'll hopefully be able to get a multithreaded preview working better, and that will definitely punch up its usability.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: rcallicotte on October 31, 2008, 07:32:34 AM
Agreed.

Quote from: FrankB on October 30, 2008, 05:10:01 PM
My fellow TG2 friends,

my private opinion: prancing on "who had the longest render" doesn't impress me much, or anyone, I daresay. There's no pride to be taken from pumping up a render to last forever. Instead, I'd be impressed if you had an example of a fantastic render with a rather little render time, achieved by clever scene design, network design and optimized render settings. Go ahead and name a few examples, which can eventually convince the instigator of this thread to give it another go, and not scare him away :-P

Frank
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: rcallicotte on October 31, 2008, 07:36:51 AM
Oh yeah, and by the way, I agree that the render times have improved but still are too long to please me.  But, since TG2 is sort of a new way of doing things, maybe it's possible Matt and Jo will figure out a way to optimize these render times.  I'm only guessing, since I don't know what's going on with the code. 
Title: Re: Computer Lockup
Post by: mr-miley on October 31, 2008, 07:59:08 AM
Errrrm..... just looked back into this thread to see the replies  :o

I certainly wasn't bragging about my render time, just stating that it was a long time, the scene was maxed out as far as quality went and that there were others here who have done a damn sight longer. I was just trying to point out to homebroo that 3 hours was not a long time for a render! Probably could have worded it better but.... I didn't mean to spark a whole argument. Some of the renders that I am most happy with have only been 4-8 hours! I agree with cyphyr, more ram is needed in homebroos case. Its very cheap at the moment (unless the prices have changed over the last few weeks) and a worthy investment for the rest of your software too.

Regards

Miles  ;D