Hi,
here is a not so serious question to you, but still...
it's a question which lingers in the back of my head for a long time, but today I feel lucky, so I am going to ask now.
There are quite a couple of people in this community, who spend a lot of time starting new threads, participating in all sorts of discussions, and comment images. Some have made a couple thousand posts, others just a few hundred, but they all have one thing in common: they never post a render. Or haven't in a very long time.
Here's my question: why?
If you feel you actually are one of those members, please... please (!) don't leave us others (who actually do post their renders) die unknowing and puzzled ;D
Cheers,
Frank
I must admit I'm one such culprit.
My problem was I was in school, and so the time it took to work on scenes to a quality I liked was very hard to get, but now that It's the summer expect a ramp up in images posted by me (afterall, already done like 2 since school stopped that are WIP), and also I've recently been taking time to document my knowledge I've learned to try to help others out a little as with the release of TG2 we have picked up quite a few new members with plenty of questions of where to start.
Me too, well not the school part, haven't been there in a loong time. I just don't have the spare CPU time anymore. I'm looking to build a new high level workstation which will leave my current one for things like Terragen.
Well...where shall I start? ;D
Okay, I haven't posted that much here. I used to be very active in "good" old TG0.9 times (you can see some of my stuff over at dA: http://tumasch.deviantart.com) and rendered a few pictures with the TGTP but due to a very weak CPU - I have a Pentium 4 with 2GHz and 1GB of memory ;) - rendering with TG2 just isn't fun!! No chance of doing complex scenes, forever waiting for pre-renders/drafts, waiting, waiting...not funny, I can assure you. But the prospect of a new CPU with enough power kicked me into action again. Yet it will be two or three more weeks before I'm the proud owner of a Quad.
Looking forward to this, really! 8)
Oh you will love the quad :) I'm on one now... they are so nice... Really wish i had an i7 though.
You probably didn't mean me, but I feel guilty of this as well. There are two issues for me. First is of course simply time. But second is simply the level of quality I feel I can achieve. Though I have made some images I do like and am proud of, still I always fall short of a certain epic quality and level of polish that the real masters achieve. While that is not reason enough not to produce new work, that with a lack of free time definitely lowers my motivation for creating new scenes. I have some plans to dive back in soon once the documentation is all polished up... :)
- Oshyan
For me there is the question of what to call an image, one of the hardest things for me is coming up with any title at all for images I make, the second point is I am simply not prepared with TG2 to churn of images at a rate of knots like I did with 0.9.43 and many of those I have never posted any where on the internet just to artificially prop up the image post count. For me its a question weather a image done in a day, can be called art, though it is a subjective point of view I would say not or at least remind me of the art equivalent of a train wreak.
As a point of interest on my system I have to folders of Work In Progress images all at different stages of completion totaling twenty eight images in all, I will be conducting a review of the merits for and against keeping some of these if the quality is not there.
I would consider posting more work If TG2 was faster, but it isn't, I have had images that I've started to render in the afternoon and not had them complete until three the next morning; OK that not any kind of record others here have had 200+ hour render times (Thanks, but no thanks) but it is not conducive to me staying claim and keeping my stress levels down as I tend to annoy easily. ;D
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
lovely thread ;D
it sounds like an AA Meeting !
Quote from: Seth on May 24, 2009, 06:17:42 AM
lovely thread ;D
it sounds like an AA Meeting !
Whahaha! :D :D
It's at least nice to see most of you are planning to go active again...
But don't go too fast, otherwise you'll be a lot better than us in no time and I don't think I can handle the competition... (jokning of course, the more competition, the better the results!)
I didn't post in a while because I had biblical render times, but a shorted fuse box fixed that for me, now I have some renders going that finish relatively quick (though 200 hours would still be relatively quick :P).
Frank, I don't show my renders for about 90% of the time - I don't like what I've done. Other reasons include - I'm learning other software, I am busy taking care of my house, I'm working on the render for the NWDA contest and by the time I'm ready to take something to concept and finalization, I already have another idea (so I don't do a final render).
Quote from: Mohawk20 on May 24, 2009, 06:52:03 AM
It's at least nice to see most of you are planning to go active again...
But don't go too fast, otherwise you'll be a lot better than us in no time and I don't think I can handle the competition... (jokning of course, the more competition, the better the results!)
Well, I wouldn't regard it as competition...I - if at all - only see other Terragenists as competition when it comes to contests. And forget about your worries, there's no way I "will be a lot better than you in no time". This is the TG forum with the best artists in the whole world, so to speak. My modest contributions wouldn't even dare stand up to or match those of the old hands here - I lost too much time at the beginnings of TG2... :) And I'm quite picky about my own work. It takes a lot for me to say "well, that's good now, I'll show it to others".
I don't like what I do 90% of time, and I never will be as good as Luc Bianco was even 1 year ago...
but you know sharing renders is very important too...
almost as important as posting advices and comments everywhere...
because it gives ideas to others, and when you comment an image, we can have an idea about your "artistic taste" :)
the "I am not good at it so I don't post" is not a good reason to me... otherwise, you won't play soccer, music, video-games, etc in front of others...
Think guys... this is a TG community... do you want to just be spectators ? ;D
@Oshyan : c'mon maaan, you did famous renders ! go ahead post some more please !
For me, mainly lack of time plus lack of available computing power, plus I'm still early in the learning curve, so I can't just throw a scene together quickly.
erased by Seth.
Seth!!!
Who did you erase this time?!?!
Put those people back this instant!!!
(Sorry, seen too much Sci-fi... ;D :P 8))
;D
Quote from: Seth on May 24, 2009, 10:35:23 AM
I don't like what I do 90% of time, and I never will be as good as Luc Bianco was even 1 year ago...
but you know sharing renders is very important too...
Okay, I agree with you and will remain silent on that for now. :)
Great stuff here! Good times! :o ;D
c'mon guys ! I need to read more confessions ! pleaaaase !
ok Seth
here is my confession. while I have been a terragen fan for years
including the previous versions. I have just recently felt confortable with the program. I tend to have long learning curves, but once I learn, progress rapidly. I have to know everything, like in my guitar playing. I know all my scales, arps and theory, etc so that when I play i do not have to think. same with terragen. I just thanks to Amnidemos loading a file, figured out some displacement issues. and the fake stone tutorial by Neuspadrin just opened that fogged space. so there may be others like me. those who are not intitutive but prodding. oh well the journey is fun
folder
I post more words than pictures.
95% of my TG2 folders(3 or 4 of them from various disk/pc failure times) will never see the light of 'Final Render', never mind day. Because 95% of it's crap or morebund. :)
Also, inspiration comes in short, sharp spurts, words flow like diarrhea!
I can be banging away, for weeks sometimes, just trying to persuede TG to bend to my fashion or, I could be on the bus home from work, have a TG Epiphony and come home and get it right, first time. These second are the best images - quick and surprising - and the most likely you are to see from me(not to say that updating 'warped voronoi caustics' isn't still an ongoing pain, that I'll bring up again at some point. It's been years, never mind months!).
I'm all caved-up at the moment with TG, that came out of the blue. I've been attempting to carve a decent cave in Terragen for years and then, the simplicity of it just clicked, almost by accident. And the caveat nauta image only takes 1h 50m to render too. On my little dual core that's decent enough for me. :)
I'll post my next spurt as it happens, until then, you just get my diarrhea... :D :D :D
dandelO, i don't think Frank had your name in mind. ^^
you post renders AND technical advices ! ;D
So OK, is the gist of this conversation saying you should only ask questions if you have a high image post count or some thing? If so that doesn't seem vary friendly too those trying to learn TG2, more over do we really want the image posting forum flooded with poor quality images except in cases where some one is trying to get help either with that image or improve as a Terragen artist?
There are times when you need to post a question on the forums, because you working on an image at that moment and you get stuck and you need advice on how to achieve some thing; so at times like these there may not be any thing at that moment that you can show or its at an early stage and you feel its not good enough to show or any other circumstance along similar lines. ???
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Quote from: FrankB on May 23, 2009, 05:13:04 PM
There are quite a couple of people in this community, who spend a lot of time starting new threads, participating in all sorts of discussions, and comment images. Some have made a couple thousand posts, others just a few hundred, but they all have one thing in common: they never post a render. Or haven't in a very long time.
Here's my question: why?
This is the question, so even if I am not in Frank's mind, I don't think dandelO is a part of the "quite a couple of people".
I just read, I don't try to turn the question as I want to.
take a deep breath, read the first post and read yours... I don't see the point of your last shot.
Best regards,
Seth.
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on May 25, 2009, 02:33:05 AM
So OK, is the gist of this conversation saying you should only ask questions if you have a high image post count or some thing? If so that doesn't seem vary friendly too those trying to learn TG2, more over do we really want the image posting forum flooded with poor quality images except in cases where some one is trying to get help either with that image or improve as a Terragen artist?
There are times when you need to post a question on the forums, because you working on an image at that moment and you get stuck and you need advice on how to achieve some thing; so at times like these there may not be any thing at that moment that you can show or its at an early stage and you feel its not good enough to show or any other circumstance along similar lines. ???
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
I think it's more of a query to those WITH a high post count but very few posts of their own renders rather than those who post very little.
I think I've posted a grand total of two projects of renders, although I've posted quite a few test images. The problem for me is fitting in dedicated time with work and family, that being said, most of what I have done has been in trying to achieve specific effects as an aid in me progressing with the program when I have dedicated time to TG.
Confessions? Well maybe I have been a little hyper critical over some peoples work, when mine hasn't cut the mustard itself. If people take offence to that then I appologise. Although personally, I'd rather have constructive criticism and direction from fresh eyes thrown at my work to help me improve my level of output, than either hearing nothing at all or a vapid well done without honest appraisal. I've also come to learn that nothing is worth getting too precious about, especially in something as subjective as art can be, particularly when we're here working with a program which is trying to simulate nature to photo realistic level, which I may add is probably an unrealistic bar to set. But it's better to have higher goals and standards to work to, and think the community here is a very important factor in that.
The other side of working with Terragen is the problem solving. I like puzzles. I find it very rewarding discovering the solution, or just brainstorming and bouncing ideas, especially when you have others involved, as they will often come up with ideas you hadn't thought about, and see no need for someone to have posted a picture in the gallery to be part of that process. The common theme here is that we all are putting some of our intellectual investment into a very open ended program.
Quote from: Seth on May 25, 2009, 02:15:35 AM
dandelO, i don't think Frank had your name in mind. ^^
you post renders AND technical advices ! ;D
I know that, just thought I'd join the fray. I don't post as many renders as forum posts but, I also know I don't never post a render.
It's a good question and one I'd have liked to have asked myself in here. Trouble with that is, I'd probably not have been so tactful as Frank was about it in the original post. I know what you're saying, Frank. ;)
I only post images I want to share :)
- Terje
I really don't think it's anyone's business how much I post or render as long as I can post helpfully. Cool. Otherwise, who gives a crap? If this particular thread is meant to be finger-pointing, it's a lotta crap.
So, is it?
It's not, it's just a little bump to share some more, so we can all enjoy a little more of the TG2 universe..!
Knowing Frank a little bit, I don't think it is... otherwise, he would have PM the guy...
Roger. Just know I fit the "Modus Operandi" from the thread's beginning and don't share the same sympathies about rendering and showing renders all the time.
Anyway, never mind. No feelings hurt...
stay relaxed, everyone :)
It's just talking. No hidden purposes or anything.
Cheers,
Frank
Holding my hand up. Guilty as charged.
I've actually been doing a lot of Terragen 0.9 work lately (shame on me, I know).
Ok, better start walking the walk again.
John
Hi Frank....good idea!...
I have many other things going on recently for me...though I have a couple (as always) on the back burner, I will tinker here and there when I get the time....I am full of good intentions!!!!....and will see if I can knock one out this week, perhaps!
cheers
Jase
The way the quality of posted renders has been going up here lately, I don't think I'll ever post anything again...
No seriously, I think the two major issues have already been stated: Performance (renders are taking a long time on older hardware) and personal issues - some people tinker with their work until eventually they get tired of it, but before they are satisfied enough with it to be prepared to share it. It's much easier to share a quick thought than to produce an image you are willing to share with the whole world :)
And finally, some people are more active in other communities and post their work there.
Quote from: otakar on May 26, 2009, 05:49:10 PM
The way the quality of posted renders has been going up here lately, I don't think I'll ever post anything again...
:(
:( Agreed. But I understand the mind set. As people here get better and better, this can be an intimidating place.
The perception will be that everyone that posts, (EDIT THAT): The perception will be that the regular posters, are all
like Luc Bianco's. That's not true I realize. - But it could be perceived as such.
I have only posted a few renders here and I am quite open about why. - " Bill Reid: Terragen hack! "
No. This would only be true *if* renders would be critized harshly, or belittled if they are less than perfect. This is *not* an observation I have made on these very friendly forums!
What I see is that newcomers are always welcomed and helped get to know TG2 better. I don't recall a single exception to that. I totally disagree.
It would be a shame and a waste not to show render even when they are not perfect or finished. Think about it: the best renders have not just been posted. The best renders have been posted in an early stage of development, then improved gradually over mutliple iterations, taking into account the helpful feedback that has been provided.
So don't refrain from posting images. Don't be _afraid_ of feedback and comments. Instead, actively seek out feedback and comments and regard them as a friendly help.
Believe me, it just becomes much more enjoyable by doing so.
Regards,
Frank
I agree that the forum isn't a critical place, but for people who've only been here maybe a week and have just looked for help with a particular thing will have looked at the stunning renders and then looked at theirs and cried. Obviously you can't be an expert with Terragen on your first render but there's always that anticipation with something new, particularly if you see someone else who is completely amazing at that thing, you want to be amazing too. Of course you fail the first time and it's a knock down.
That's not a new thing, I've been here for 3 years or so and I still don't like putting my stuff on here because, as a man, it may bruise my macho ego and therefore somehow negatively reflect my dominance and the size of my winky......ahem..
Maybe we need to look at a solution to the rendering problem though, it is a BIG problem for a LOT of people. I mean, I can't leave my pc on at night because it keeps the missus up (even when I moved it downstairs). We've looked at community render farms a couple of times, I even started developing a BOINC project for it but lack of interest halted that. So perhaps we should have a discussion on how to improve the situation instead.
I agree with the last two posts. I think exposing oneself to criticism is never easy or comfortable, especially if one isn't too sure about the quality of one's own work (always bearing in mind and comparing to the top notch artists in the forums here). However, and I know that from experience, exposing yourself to criticism is what helps you on your way to a better quality. If you never show your work, you will never get a feedback. And if the feedback comes from people who know what they're talking about, that's even better, innit? So benefit, people, benefit.
I know the situation from my professional life just too well. I'm doing a teacher training and have to get a lot of feedback from fellow trainees and instructors/tutors. It's always uncomfortable to have people sitting at the back of the classroom who watch your every move, but it really helps me improve.
That saying, I promise to show some of my work as soon as I have updated my comp system. Even though I know that it's far from perfect...I'll do it because I want to improve. Just the way I did in other forums with TG0.9.
I agree with Frank. This is a nice forum.
@PG - I agree about wanting a faster way to render. Maybe 64-bit will help. I'm looking into purchasing what is needed for a small render farm. Other things that would help this situation you have mentioned would be to have a beginner's place where all of the wikis and tutorials and documentation could be a center of a hungry beginner's life. Oh. We already have that - http://www.planetside.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page ;D
... and not to be mis-understood. I love it here, and have learned a lot from really great people.
I am just not that good, but I will never stop trying! There ya go Seth. " I am a proud Terragen abuser! :o "
My opinion on the matter:
Well, I don't post alot, I have a few comments here and there, and judging by the number of renders I've posted here, about 5 images. Fact is, I have a tiered outlook...
I post anything and everything I render over at the website formerly known as Ashundar, terragen.org. it was where I hid before this forum was known to me, and I feel comfortable there.
Then, if my work entries the stage where I feel it can be improved and reach a higher level of quality, I post it here for feedback. Everyone has great ideas and suggestions, but some of my uh... less realistic or more sketchy images won't be getting another render. Everyone knows my machine is abysmal for rendering, so that first pass is the last.
As much as we're a friendly community, and I fully believe this, we're also a community with a higher stanrdard. I'm sure it wasn't setup this way on purpose, but the better the collective renders get, the more folks will feel there render can't stack up and won't post it. This only makes the situation worse. This could intimidate newer members.
Lastly, I like the Ashundar gallery because the max size is alot larger. As such, my higher quality .pngs end up there, and sometimes I just don't want to compress it down, if the image isn't that fantastic to begin with.
Just my 2 cents on the matter. I do love this place, and refuse to go away ;)
Yeah, would be nice if Planetside created a gallery for us to use here. I don't really go to Ashundar now, but that 512kb is crucifying.
@ Frank, I have to take it easy here because my rather intense imagination's bi products (not buy products) have sometimes been received as (heaven forbid) "Ghastly" or even "scary" by the more faint of heart and fair of face.
@ folder, who the hell is antidemos? I don't see his name on the members list.
@ Those who are feeling diminished by Luc and his impressive technical command of Terragen deuce, remember like some other local commercially oriented talent he is pretty well locked into creating the better postcard to carry mainly a mighty meager/nonexistent pro bono lessons on a forum section that is touted as mostly "educational."
Quote from: arisdemos on May 28, 2009, 04:36:04 PM
@ Frank, I have to take it easy here because my rather intense imagination's bi products (not buy products) have sometimes been received as (heaven forbid) "Ghastly" or even "scary" by the more faint of heart and fair of face.
@ folder, who the hell is antidemos? I don't see his name on the members list.
@ Those who are feeling diminished by Luc and his impressive technical command of Terragen deuce, remember like some other local commercially oriented talent he is pretty well locked into creating the better postcard to carry mainly a mighty meager/nonexistent pro bono lessons on a forum section that is touted as mostly "educational."
;D
And now in understandable normal English please ;D lol
(How, what and who are you referring to? I REALLY have no idea what you're talking about, serious)
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 28, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
;D
And now in understandable normal English please ;D lol
(How, what and who are you referring to? I REALLY have no idea what you're talking about, serious)
Dude, are you serious?
What grade did you get for English in school?! :P
Arisdemos, I could understand you perfectly. I'd like to see some of those scary scenes!
Quote from: Mohawk20 on May 29, 2009, 04:49:48 AM
Arisdemos, I could understand you perfectly.
Can you translate then, please? Just in your own words, I think I'll be able to follow these. Arisdemos is a certified poet, as I figured out earlier, and I am not so used to interpreting poetry ;D
Quote from: FrankB on May 29, 2009, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: Mohawk20 on May 29, 2009, 04:49:48 AM
Arisdemos, I could understand you perfectly.
Can you translate then, please? Just in your own words, I think I'll be able to follow these. Arisdemos is a certified poet, as I figured out earlier, and I am not so used to interpreting poetry ;D
Really?
Okay then... Here goes:
(Arisdemos, feel free to ignore these two illiterate barbarians ;) )
@ Frank, I have to take it easy here because my rather intense imagination's bi products (not buy products) have sometimes been received as (heaven forbid) "Ghastly" or even "scary" by the more faint of heart and fair of face.
He doesn't post a lot of images, because he tends to add stuff that scares people or they find Ghastly (which could mean either scary or ugly, please clarify).
@ folder, who the hell is antidemos? I don't see his name on the members list.I assume this is a bit of a joke about a past misspelled reference to him...
@ Those who are feeling diminished by Luc and his impressive technical command of Terragen deuce, remember like some other local commercially oriented talent he is pretty well locked into creating the better postcard to carry mainly a mighty meager/nonexistent pro bono lessons on a forum section that is touted as mostly "educational." If you are feeling too small in comparison to Luc Bianco, keep in mind he is forced to get a bit of money by making great postcards, and share his work on these forums for free.
So, translating is a bit harder than understanding, and I might not have chosen the right words at some points, but this is as I understand it...
Thanks. Howgh! :)
Quote from: FrankB on May 29, 2009, 05:08:35 AM
Thanks. Howgh! :)
Ugh, Doubletonge speak in riddle. Mohawk read his meaning in the stars. Mohawk tell you secret words of Doubletongue.
Now we smoke peace pipe and bury tomahawk. Howgh!
;D
Thanks RJ, the first 2 weren't hard for me of course but the latter sounded like absolute arab to me.
I'd like to send you some copies of my latest researches I've worked on, let's see if your english is really that good ;) It all depends on what you're used to :) I'm not used to poetry like or "streetlanguage"-like english.
I always prefer clear straight-forward language in an international place like these forums where people have different levels of the English language.
I like communication in our Dutch way and especially the "Rotterdam way"...straight forward, direct, clear and no nonsense. Like saying somebody's English just sucks ;)
Ok TU because I think your a regular sort of fellow, I will give it a try in that Rotterdam vernacular, or as close to it as someone with "sucky" Englaise can come.
Frank's subject was sort of like, why don't you bastards on this forum do more posting? My answere @ him was that certain stuff I posted in the past (in the LOTR contest for example) has not set too well with certain people on this forum. I am referring to those very "stright arrow" types who never seem to venture far from their cozy safe little emotional comfort zones. Many folks here seem to want the ultimate graphic reality attainable, but if a picture can really be worth that proverbial thousand words then certain sheltered souls seem to want the image creator to be very very careful that the pictures shared not actually speak of any really "disturbing" realities.
For the second statement @ folder, Mohawk has pretty well hit the mark.
The last little message that was @ "Those who feel diminished by old Luc" was not translated very well by Mohawk, because what I was saying is that Luc makes some of the best postcards around, but he is obviously so commercially focused that he really does not wish to teach the less wealthy rank and file membership of this forum much of his technical skills. This is another case of one's pictures speaking a "thousand words."
Ta ta
OK, thanks :)
Let's settle this for now. It's always useful to learn more "languages" ;D
I only speak 2 and a half (german, english, french) and can understand some dutch and (tiny) bits of spanish, so that's probably not a lot. I've added bits of "poetic" today, isn't that something? ;D
Cheers,
Frank
I agree that the most feedback is generated from images trying to be "realistic" but that's because it's what we have the most basis of comparison to.
WorldXYZ with a yellow sky and purple grass can be good looking, but we can't really say "this looks wrong or would look better like this" because I don't know exactly how WorldXYZ should look in the first place ;)
Last renders from wetbanana (for example) are real good , but i think people should try more and more sci-fi render as they did with TG0.9, with purple skies, incredible water and wicked terrains...
and believe me, if they'll do that again, i think we'll have more feedback on sci-fi stuff ^^
oh, and i think it will be a good way to understand some stuff from TG2 too... trying to be like the real world is fun but trying to make something alien-looking but looking real is a good exercise too ;)
Arisdemos
Sorry it was you I was referring to the clip file from volkers tdg file I went into the internal part and studied it I simly at 53 (26 may) have forgot how to spell
;D
folder