Planetside Software Forums

hey guys a I will have a new system within a month
specs on what i am getting
Commercial in confidence

CPU:          AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 955 3.2GHz , 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3  
        Cache Socket AM3 125W Black Edition (would you recommend this)
Motherboard:    Gigabyte MA770T-UD3P AM3 AMD770 5200MT 4DDR3 PCI-E 2.0 SATA2
Gigabit LAN 3x1394a ATX  
Memory:    8GB (4X2GB) Strontium Hynix 2GB 1333MHZ DDR3 PC10660
(may add 12gb still undecided)
Hard Drive:    Western Digital Carviar SE 3.5 500GB SATA2 7200RPM 16MB Cache (with additional 320gb of storage from my old pc)
Case:    Cooler Master Elite 331 Black 420W peak PSU Mid Tower Case  
Video Card:    XFX GT-240X-ZNFA Geforce GT 240 1GB 128mb-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express 2.0
x16 Native HDMI 40nm DX 10.1


Final Price:     $1065.78+GST
GST:           $133.22        
Total:         $1199.00 (Direct Deposit Price)
                $849.492 USD
 

Does this sound like a good setup guys like to here your feedback!

or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 12:54:52 AM
hey guys a I will have a new system within a month
specs on what i am getting
Commercial in confidence

CPU:          AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 955 3.2GHz , 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 
         Cache Socket AM3 125W Black Edition (would you recommend this)
Motherboard:    Gigabyte MA770T-UD3P AM3 AMD770 5200MT 4DDR3 PCI-E 2.0 SATA2
Gigabit LAN 3x1394a ATX 
Memory:    8GB (4X2GB) Strontium Hynix 2GB 1333MHZ DDR3 PC10660
(may add 12gb still undecided)
Hard Drive:    Western Digital Carviar SE 3.5 500GB SATA2 7200RPM 16MB Cache (with additional 320gb of storage from my old pc)
Case:    Cooler Master Elite 331 Black 420W peak PSU Mid Tower Case 
Video Card:    XFX GT-240X-ZNFA Geforce GT 240 1GB 128mb-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express 2.0
x16 Native HDMI 40nm DX 10.1


Final Price:     $1065.78+GST
GST:           $133.22       
Total:         $1199.00 (Direct Deposit Price)
                 $849.492 USD
   

Does this sound like a good setup guys like to here your feedback!

PSU, what is the PSU ?

I would invest a little bit more on a good quality PSU. Mine is Silverstone, with 750 Watt rating.

The RAM price is going up by the day, and if you want to have 12GB of RAM, go for it now because by June the price will go up by at least another 20%.

I would forgo the 500GB HD for the moment since price for HD isn't going up, and could even go down since many people are crazy with SSD right now.

If I were you I will get a solid PSU and as much RAM as I possibly could afford right now, and then 6 months or one year down the road I will upgrade the rig with a 2TB HD. On GPU I would rather having ATI, much cheaper than the one offered by Nvidia.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AM
or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AM
or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

nope i dont and the psu is 420w

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 02:38:10 AM

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 12:54:52 AM
hey guys a I will have a new system within a month
specs on what i am getting
Commercial in confidence

CPU:          AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 955 3.2GHz , 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 
         Cache Socket AM3 125W Black Edition (would you recommend this)
Motherboard:    Gigabyte MA770T-UD3P AM3 AMD770 5200MT 4DDR3 PCI-E 2.0 SATA2
Gigabit LAN 3x1394a ATX 
Memory:    8GB (4X2GB) Strontium Hynix 2GB 1333MHZ DDR3 PC10660
(may add 12gb still undecided)
Hard Drive:    Western Digital Carviar SE 3.5 500GB SATA2 7200RPM 16MB Cache (with additional 320gb of storage from my old pc)
Case:    Cooler Master Elite 331 Black 420W peak PSU Mid Tower Case 
Video Card:    XFX GT-240X-ZNFA Geforce GT 240 1GB 128mb-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express 2.0
x16 Native HDMI 40nm DX 10.1


Final Price:     $1065.78+GST
GST:           $133.22       
Total:         $1199.00 (Direct Deposit Price)
                 $849.492 USD
   

Does this sound like a good setup guys like to here your feedback!

PSU, what is the PSU ?

I would invest a little bit more on a good quality PSU. Mine is Silverstone, with 750 Watt rating.

The RAM price is going up by the day, and if you want to have 12GB of RAM, go for it now because by June the price will go up by at least another 20%.

I would forgo the 500GB HD for the moment since price for HD isn't going up, and could even go down since many people are crazy with SSD right now.

If I were you I will get a solid PSU and as much RAM as I possibly could afford right now, and then 6 months or one year down the road I will upgrade the rig with a 2TB HD. On GPU I would rather having ATI, much cheaper than the one offered by Nvidia.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AM
or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

ido Cuda raytracing though with octane so nvidia is a must!

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 02:48:59 AM
nope i dont and the psu is 420w

Nvidia GT 240 Power Consumption could hit as high as 200 Watt. See http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/3028/nvidia_geforce_gt_240_video_card_round_up/index18.html for more detail.

Which means your PSU rating of 420W may not be enough to power both your GPU and your CPU, HD, RAM, MOBO, etc.

Normally I add up the component power consumption and tag on an additional 100 to 150 Watt to make sure everything runs fine.

One of the reason your last computer got fried could be an electric short circuit caused by an overtaxed PSU.

I will get about a 600w i think

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 02:54:10 AM
I will get about a 600w i think

600Watt is okay, but remember to get the branded ones like Silverstone. Not all 600Watt PSU are the same.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 02:50:39 AM

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 02:38:10 AM

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 12:54:52 AM
hey guys a I will have a new system within a month
specs on what i am getting
Commercial in confidence

CPU:          AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 955 3.2GHz , 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 
         Cache Socket AM3 125W Black Edition (would you recommend this)
Motherboard:    Gigabyte MA770T-UD3P AM3 AMD770 5200MT 4DDR3 PCI-E 2.0 SATA2
Gigabit LAN 3x1394a ATX 
Memory:    8GB (4X2GB) Strontium Hynix 2GB 1333MHZ DDR3 PC10660
(may add 12gb still undecided)
Hard Drive:    Western Digital Carviar SE 3.5 500GB SATA2 7200RPM 16MB Cache (with additional 320gb of storage from my old pc)
Case:    Cooler Master Elite 331 Black 420W peak PSU Mid Tower Case 
Video Card:    XFX GT-240X-ZNFA Geforce GT 240 1GB 128mb-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express 2.0
x16 Native HDMI 40nm DX 10.1


Final Price:     $1065.78+GST
GST:           $133.22       
Total:         $1199.00 (Direct Deposit Price)
                 $849.492 USD
   

Does this sound like a good setup guys like to here your feedback!

PSU, what is the PSU ?

I would invest a little bit more on a good quality PSU. Mine is Silverstone, with 750 Watt rating.

The RAM price is going up by the day, and if you want to have 12GB of RAM, go for it now because by June the price will go up by at least another 20%.

I would forgo the 500GB HD for the moment since price for HD isn't going up, and could even go down since many people are crazy with SSD right now.

If I were you I will get a solid PSU and as much RAM as I possibly could afford right now, and then 6 months or one year down the road I will upgrade the rig with a 2TB HD. On GPU I would rather having ATI, much cheaper than the one offered by Nvidia.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AM
or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

ido Cuda raytracing though with octane so nvidia is a must!

I just paid a visit to Octane's site ( http://www.refractivesoftware.com/faq.html ) and they recommend GTX 260 instead of your GT 240.

Here is a very rough guide I picked up somewhere regarding Nvidia's card performance hierarchy vs. that of ATI:

GTS240 ~ 9600GT < 8800/9800GT ~ 4830 < 8800GTS 512 ~ 4770 < 9800GTX/GTS250 ~ 4850 < GTX260 ~ 4870 < GTX275 ~ 4890 < GTX285 < 5850 < 4870x2 ~ 5870 ~ GTX295 < 5970 < 5990

what Nvidia card would you recomend

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 02:46:47 AM

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AM
or is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

I disagree. What on earth would he want with more than 8GB right now? I am assuming the main hardcore use case for this machine is rendering with TG2, in which case it can't consume more than 4 GB at once, until the 64bit version come out, but nobody knows when that will be. Over time, RAM always got cheaper in the past 20 years, so pre-investments are futile.
Also - although I haven't taken the time to find a proof - the i7 should be much faster in rendering than the AMD. The 920 can also be slightly overclocked, although I don't find that necessary, as the i7 is really pretty fast anyway.

Frank

also, looking at the TG2 benchmark, it tells it's own story about the i7 vs the Phenom 955

http://www.3dspeedmachine.com/?page=3&scene=47

Frank

ok but 8gb i should stick with
and go with the corei7?

Yes, remember the core i7 has hyperthreading, so it's effectively like having an 8 core processor. I don't think the AMD has (but please, correct me if I'm wrong)

yup.

IF there's any money left, I would add a very silent cooler. The stock one is crazy when it goes full throttle - and you are going to hear it at full speed when rendering! I went for the Noctua cooler. It has very good cooling performance, large fans and goes slow and silent. Mind you, you have to have a spacey case for it to fit though.
It's only 50 Euro, so pretty affordable and got great ratings from users: http://www.alternate.de/html/product/CPU_Luefter/Noctua/NH-U12P_SE2/367523/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Cooling&l2=CPU-K%C3%BChler

Frank

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 04:19:04 AM

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 02:46:47 AM

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 AMor is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php)

i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.

I disagree. What on earth would he want with more than 8GB right now? I am assuming the main hardcore use case for this machine is rendering with TG2, in which case it can't consume more than 4 GB at once, until the 64bit version come out, but nobody knows when that will be. Over time, RAM always got cheaper in the past 20 years, so pre-investments are futile.
Also - although I haven't taken the time to find a proof - the i7 should be much faster in rendering than the AMD. The 920 can also be slightly overclocked, although I don't find that necessary, as the i7 is really pretty fast anyway.

Frank

If he is only going to use his entire computer to run only TG2, then you are correct. 4GB is enough.

Over time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.

Wetbanana, are you willing to wait that long for the RAM price to come down?

Quote from: domdib on April 17, 2010, 04:44:04 AMYes, remember the core i7 has hyperthreading, so it's effectively like having an 8 core processor. I don't think the AMD has (but please, correct me if I'm wrong)

Remember hyperthreading only works on programs that are hyperthreading aware !

And the 4-core CPU = 8 core with hyperthreading is very misleading. All evidence tell us that the "hyperthreaded core" are about 35% more, which means, a 4-core CPU with hyperthreading works out about 4 X 1.35 or about a little bit more than 5 cores.

But then you are correct again, 5 cores are still better than 4 cores. If that extra core worth USD 100 more, and Wetbanana is willing to pay for it, so much the better.

TG2 is hyperthreading aware, although I think you have to tell it to use a minimum of 8 threads.

With core i7 920 he should get 6 gb of ddr3. 3x2gb sticks. Otherwise the 3 channel benefit goes to waste

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 05:36:59 AM

Over time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.

yes there are certain peaks, but they don't last 3 years. Check this out, it's not easy to digest, but I wouldn't worry :)
(apart from the fact that RAM technologies change. You might buy DDR3 today, but what do you need in 3 years for a new PC? )

Regards;
Frank

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 08:45:08 AM

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 05:36:59 AMOver time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.

yes there are certain peaks, but they don't last 3 years. Check this out, it's not easy to digest, but I wouldn't worry :)
(apart from the fact that RAM technologies change. You might buy DDR3 today, but what do you need in 3 years for a new PC? )

Regards;
Frank

"The ongoing DRAM shortage is causing a panic among PC makers, which now have less than one month of inventory, according to Nanya Technology spokesperson Pei-Lin Pai speaking at the company's recent investors conference. The chip shortage has even affected shipments of some first-tier PC vendors, Pai pointed out."

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20100414PD215.html

I should know about the DRAM market. I am one of the purchasers dealing with DRAM manufacturers for one of the major PC maker, and currently we have about 6 week inventory left. :)

Good news indeed!

Buy the best processor and power supply you can afford now. Everything else can be upgraded as time passes. This has worked well for me. My five year old Dell is able to handle everything I have thrown at it, though slowly these days.

Hi Piggy, I truly believe that you truly believe what you are saying. No doubt about that.

There was this one story that crossed the wires a few years back, about a factory that was destroyed by a fire, and I recall that the market and experts and journalists were panicking about the chip prices and because of the reduced production capacities. In the end nothing much happened to the prices that had last long. That's my outsider view of the story. Sometimes it's interesting to hear an outsiders, non expert view. That is also true for the software industry, that I am familiar with, but that discussion would lead us somewhere else. Anyway, that's why I'm saying all this, and because of the fact that indeed prices for memory (and computing power) are ever decreasing, if you look at a long enough time period.

As an outsider, I would think, like with that fire a few years back: if there's ever increasing demand, sombody will arise to meet this demand, and the market will regulate and calm down again relatively quickly. Maybe the current producers would just build another plant, or extend their existing ones, or switch to producing 24 hours (if they don't already, or another chip facility in another country will see reason to grow and produce for masses... whatever. And why would that be so? My view is that once supply is cut short, prices rise, and that provides incentive enough for someone to stand up and try to make money from it.
This is why I don't buy in to the panick, from a consumer stand point, whereas I realize that the threat is real for business that are part of the supply chain, as they might experience a temporary break down. The consumer would just sit and wait a little bit longer, that's all.

Hope you don't mind my humble point of view, and I am not attempting to step on your toe.

Cheers,
Frank

thanks for the help guys
my budget is about 1500nzd so around 1050usd
(my Grandad is paying for my new rig as its for education ;D)

would this be a good cpu fan?
http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php)

If i include some of my own saving the budget will be about 2000nzd

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 12:53:42 PMHi Piggy, I truly believe that you truly believe what you are saying. No doubt about that.

There was this one story that crossed the wires a few years back, about a factory that was destroyed by a fire,

Ah !

I know which one. :) That factory in Japan which made the ceramic that is used to seal the chips.

Indeed those experts were alarmed and told the world how disastrous it was for the chip industry world wide. But then those so-called "experts" are not "experts", they are "columnists", meaning, they earn money not by being in-the-field but by WRITING STUFFS about the industry.

Those so-called "experts" didn't know, back then, that there were more than enough inventory in the channels to last 2 years. :)

But this time, my dear friend, it's different.

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 12:53:42 PMAs an outsider, I would think, like with that fire a few years back: if there's ever increasing demand, sombody will arise to meet this demand,

I am not disputing what you said as it's true.

However, in this case, we need to deal with the timeline problem.

Building a fab takes years.

And the last price fall cycle for DRAM had bankrupted 40% of the DRAM manufacturers.

2 manufacturers in Europe completely closed shop, with their fabs and their equipments sold to buyers in China, Taiwan and elsewhere. And those equipments are being used to produce SOLAR PANELS, not DRAM.

2 more DRAM manufacturers in Taiwan also faced bankrupcy. One has opted out of commodity DRAM market and is concentrating on specialized memory products, and the other one has sold 80% of its equipments to other manufacturers.

Which means, there are only 60% of the original capacity remaining to make DRAM.

But this gets worse.

As 3 DRAM manufacturers in Taiwan, the ones that survive intact, have opted to shift some of their manufacturing lines to make NOR Flash chips instead.

NOR Flash chips price is skyrocketting, much more than DRAM. The spot price for NOR Flash chips have soared over 400% since last December, and is still going up and up and up, thanks to the demand from the Mobile Phone market, the IPad market, the SSD market, and so on.

Taking into account what is happening, only 48% of previous capacity is actually devoted into making DRAM today.

Why no expansion?

Well ... two fold.

1. No new DRAM fabs are being build.

2. The Immersion Technology equipments are in very very short supply.

As the lithography of chips goes down beyond 50nm, they need to use very very deep ultraviolet light to do the lithography.

And to make that work, they need to do it all immersed under water.

And to do that, you need new equipments, the immersion technology equipments and those are in very very short supply.

Which means, even if in existing fabs they have the space for the new equipments, they still can't do anything right now because there is not enough new immersion technology equipment for them to make the new chips.

All that mean one thing - all the 2nd tier DRAM manufacturers have to make do with old 63nm technology to produce DRAM and it's costing them a lot.

Unless of course someone got BILLIONS and BILLIONS to spend that they can buy up GlobalFoundries from the Middle Eastern fellas and turn all the capacity into producing DRAM instead.

But sadly that's not happening. :)

The earliest increase production for DRAM that I can foresee is in 2nd quarter, 2011.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 06:57:03 PM
would this be a good cpu fan?
http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php (http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php)

If i include some of my own saving the budget will be about 2000nzd

Looks like it will do the job. The important thing about a CPU cooling system is the contact between the heatsink and the chip.

Pretty good idea.  And get a recognized name by shopping on Newegg and seeing what rates well.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 02:54:10 AM
I will get about a 600w i think

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 04:19:04 AM
I disagree. What on earth would he want with more than 8GB right now?

One instance of TG2 rendering and another one to model with might use more than 4 GB in Windows 7-64. 

I agree that getting a solid PSU is key. Brand is at least as important as overall wattage. Good brands are Enermax, Antec, CoolerMaster, Silverstone, and a few others. You may pay a bit extra there but it's worth it.

For the CPU I'd consider an i7 860. Actually clocked slightly higher than the 920 and in many cases cheaper. The only potential disadvantage is dual channel vs. triple channel memory, and a different CPU socket that changes your upgrade options. In actual benchmarks the 860 is usually either as fast or faster than the 920. If the 920 beats 860 for price where you're buying, then it may be the better purchase, but you should also note that the motherboards for the 860 are cheaper, which should factor in to your decision.

For RAM, I think 8GB is a good point to aim for, just make sure you get at least 2GB modules (4GB modules are usually too expensive still anyway). With 4 (typical) RAM slots for a dual channel system you'd max out at 8GB anyway. With a triple channel you usually have 6 slots so 12GB is the ceiling with 2GB DIMMs. Being triple channel, 2x3GB is your other best option there, which is only 6GB, so in that case I might recommend going all the way for 12GB. Again this could be seen as an advantage for the 860 since you can get a nice middle ground at 8GB, which I would say is something of a "sweet spot" for price vs. practicality.

- Oshyan

thankyou oshyan for clearing this up  ;D
i will be getting a 650w cooler master psu
core i7 860 with the cheaper motherboard
and 8gb of ram ;)

Quote from: domdib on April 17, 2010, 04:44:04 AM
Yes, remember the core i7 has hyperthreading, so it's effectively like having an 8 core processor. I don't think the AMD has (but please, correct me if I'm wrong)

A lot of people are saying that hyper-threaded effectively doubles the number of cores and this isn't true.  All hyper-threading does is to do more context switching in hardware when a thread change needs to happen.  It doesn't do any of the thread's app processing.  According to Intel, hyper-threading can improve performance by about 15-30% (corrected).  But performance can even be worse with hyper-threading.  This improvement does not even come close to the performance gain you would get by doubling the number of cores.  However, when your app thinks it has 8-threads, twice as much memory has to be allocated for stacks.  This can put the squeeze on your 32-bit app's address space and make your program more unstable if your are rendering a complex scene.  As you say, Deneb does not have any hyper-threading so there is more software overhead for context switches.  Thuban (to be released on April 26) is supposed to have some acceleration, but details are sketchy.  I don't think that hyper-threading accounts for much of the performance advantage i7 has over Phenom II.  AMD is supposed to have full-fledged hyper-threading when Bulldozer arrives next year or late this year.  Once we are running the 64-bit TG2, then hyper-threading will not put the squeeze on the app's address space given you have plenty of RAM.  But I think by then, AMD processors will have this technology on the market.  

Don't forget that, if it were not for AMD, the i7 wouldn't even exist.  Remember the Itanic?  Competition is good for the industry.  I, for one, like to have the freedom of choice.  

Not quite.

Hyperthreading is Intel's proprietary term for the general chip design concept of simultaneous multithreading (SMT). In SMT, you duplicate various elements of a system's pipeline and thereby allow individual threads to be executed simultaneously in a pipeline stage. This means that there are a lot of variables in the equation: number of duplicated elements, length of pipeline, size of cache, and cache and memory response time.

The number you cited almost certainly comes from the PIV era of hyperthreading. With Core i7's improvements in memory management, larger caches, and redesigned pipeline, we almost certainly get more. The wikipedia article for hyperthreading cites 30%, but I remember hearing reports when the i7 first came out that gains of 50% to nearly 100% performance were routine for highly threaded applications like Terragen. Anecdotally, I can certainly tell a huge difference between rendering on 8 cores and 16 cores on my Mac Pro, even though technically 8 of those 16 cores are virtual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_multithreading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscalar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Nehalem_(microarchitecture)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-Threading

I read the same Wikipedia articles, but I mis-quoted the improvement percentages.  Thank you for the correction (now edited into my earliler post).  It was Intel's numbers that I was trying to quote from memory that estimates the difference in performance due to hyper-threading alone.  Unless you know how to explicitly turn off hyper-threading in your machine, you will not know how much of your performance gains are due to hyper-threading alone.  I would think that Intel improved their pipelines as well, which probably accounts for part of the performance gains that early benchmarkers were seeing.  Most of the improvement in performance, though, was due to multi-threading making use of multiple cores that the P4 didn't have.  

Quote from: PabloMack on April 23, 2010, 01:05:26 PM

Quote from: domdib on April 17, 2010, 04:44:04 AMYes, remember the core i7 has hyperthreading, so it's effectively like having an 8 core processor. I don't think the AMD has (but please, correct me if I'm wrong)

A lot of people are saying that hyper-threaded effectively doubles the number of cores and this isn't true.  All hyper-threading does is to do more context switching in hardware when a thread change needs to happen.  It doesn't do any of the thread's app processing.  According to Intel, hyper-threading can improve performance by about 15-30% (corrected).  But performance can even be worse with hyper-threading.  This improvement does not even come close to the performance gain you would get by doubling the number of cores.  However, when your app thinks it has 8-threads, twice as much memory has to be allocated for stacks.  This can put the squeeze on your 32-bit app's address space and make your program more unstable if your are rendering a complex scene.

Applaud !

Hyperthread machines can perform VERY WELL if the threads are used to perform VERY SIMPLE task, like sending out a few lines of javascript, for example.

Intel developed the hyperthread technology for the server market, where busy servers need to serve hundreds of thousands to million of hits per second.

But if the hyperthread CPU is used for heavy duty stuffs like what TG2 requires, I have serious doubt on the ability of Intel's hyperthreading technology to fulfill the need to do millions to billions of double-precision floating-point calculation per thread.

Quote from: PabloMack on April 23, 2010, 01:05:26 PMAs you say, Deneb does not have any hyper-threading so there is more software overhead for context switches.  Thuban (to be released on April 26) is supposed to have some acceleration, but details are sketchy.  I don't think that hyper-threading accounts for much of the performance advantage i7 has over Phenom II.  AMD is supposed to have full-fledged hyper-threading when Bulldozer arrives next year or late this year.  Once we are running the 64-bit TG2, then hyper-threading will not put the squeeze on the app's address space given you have plenty of RAM.  But I think by then, AMD processors will have this technology on the market.  

Don't forget that, if it were not for AMD, the i7 wouldn't even exist.  Remember the Itanic?  Competition is good for the industry.  I, for one, like to have the freedom of choice.

I thought Bullozer won't arrive before 2011?

Well penang, the facts are quite simple:
I have a 2.4GHz Q6600 and FrankB and others have a i7 920 @ 2.66GHz.
Their renders are at least 2x faster than mine and some times even a bit faster.

Someone with HT should do a comparison render with and without hyperthreading, if it hasn't already been done.

As for the PSU: Some manufacturers have a tool on their website to calculate how much power you'll need.
I myself got a 380W psu and I'm running a Q6700 Quadcore plus a GF 7900GS without any problems.

If you want a silent pc, remember that psu and graphics card have (possibly loud) coolers in/on them too.

I would go with at least a 750W power supply. Graphics cards in series and some other peripherals can take a lot of power. Buying a powerful power supply now will pay off in future upgrades.

Quote from: penang on April 24, 2010, 03:39:43 AM
I thought Bullozer won't arrive before 2011?

This is probably true but 2011 is now little more than 8 months away.  What any one system will be able to do with TG2 in the meanwhile will be very finite.  AMD seems to be step-wise adding more cores to Phenom II offerings, but 45nm can only take that so far.  Without something like hyper-threading, Phenom II should have more silicon real estate to work with to put more real cores on a die than Intel can do with the same scale of geometry.  As for TG2, the single thread that is used to construct the pre-render window seems to need the boost from hyper-threading to make that single thread run faster.  The people with i7's are benefiting from this small margin of improvement.  But AMD is working on clocking up single threads automatically to take up the slack in near future offerings.  I saw an article that said someone over-clocked a Phenom II X4 to run over 7 GHz realiably and said it was a world record.  This system, though, was set up with liquid cooling.  It is good to know that the silicon can go much faster than it is being pushed and heat buildup is the limiting factor in the Phenom II line.  

I do think that Bulldozer involves a new core design because it will have some sort of multi-threading capability to address the hyper-thread issue.  But AMD is planning to put a GPU on the same die.  This could speed up processing by much more than what you see with today's GPUs once software companies like PS start to use it.  I've been reading semiconductor news and it seems that there are more problems with going to 32nm than people realize.  It involves emersion processes that depend on equipment made by suppliers that customers like Intel and AMD depend on and the technology is not there yet.  Apparently there is a considerable cost involved to do the development and no-one is stepping up to the plate.  The article seemed to be addressing the often-sited coming to the end to "Moore's Law".  I think the industry could be approaching the end of what light can do at such small scales.  What is the next step?  XRay or scanning electron beams?  

I bought a setup like this a few months ago. It might suit you too:

Processor:     Core i7 920 2.66GHz LGA1366
Case:            P183
Motherboard   P6T, X58, LGA1366, DDR3, SLI / Crossfire, ATX
Cooler:          Prolimatech Megahalems , LGA775/LGA1156/LGA    
PSU:             Corsair 650W 650HX, ATX2.2 80+    
Graphics:       Ati Radeon HD 4650 XXX, 512 MB DDR2
RAM:             6 x 2GB Extreeme Dark Tri-Channel kit, DDR3 1333

The price was little less than 1000 at that time. I suspect you have to drop 1 of those ramkits and go with 6 gb since the price almost doubled. I paid 99 for a 3x2gb kit.

Quote from: penang on April 24, 2010, 03:39:43 AM
But if the hyperthread CPU is used for heavy duty stuffs like what TG2 requires, I have serious doubt on the ability of Intel's hyperthreading technology to fulfill the need to do millions to billions of double-precision floating-point calculation per thread.

I did find that TG2 lets you over-ride the number of cores that the application sees in the Preferences menu.  For people with memory limitations, you can do the threads/render time tradeoff thing yourself to try to optimize.  But with more than one variable at work here, it depends on the OS to decide how to balance the processing between real cores and these "pseudo cores"(or maybe the hardware just takes care of it and it is beyond the control of the OS, I don't know.).  One i7 pseudo-core may be less powerful than one Phenom II real-core so AMD users might be getting more processing power for their stack usage space on final renders.  But then stack usage is not an issue for scenes that are not pushing memory limitations.  I wonder, do i7 users see better performance on the single-thread process of updating the pre-render window?  And can single threads benefit from hyper-threading when the rest of the system is idle?  

Quote from: PabloMack on April 24, 2010, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: penang on April 24, 2010, 03:39:43 AMI thought Bullozer won't arrive before 2011?

This is probably true but 2011 is now little more than 8 months away.  What any one system will be able to do with TG2 in the meanwhile will be very finite.  AMD seems to be step-wise adding more cores to Phenom II offerings, but 45nm can only take that so far.

45nm version of Bulldozers are trial runs. These have been taped out and will be produced later this year. Their 32nm version cousins will have to wait.

AMD still owns part of Globalfoundries, and Globalfoundries is going to produce 28nm FPGA chips for Altera, starting August or September of this year.

What this means is that AMD is willing to wait just a bit longer. Wait till they learn some first hand experience from the 28nm production for Altera and then apply them to their 32nm design of Bulldozers that will come out next year.

Quote from: PabloMack on April 24, 2010, 09:34:47 AMWithout something like hyper-threading, Phenom II should have more silicon real estate to work with to put more real cores on a die than Intel can do with the same scale of geometry.  As for TG2, the single thread that is used to construct the pre-render window seems to need the boost from hyper-threading to make that single thread run faster.  The people with i7's are benefiting from this small margin of improvement.  But AMD is working on clocking up single threads automatically to take up the slack in near future offerings.  I saw an article that said someone over-clocked a Phenom II X4 to run over 7 GHz realiably and said it was a world record.  This system, though, was set up with liquid cooling.  It is good to know that the silicon can go much faster than it is being pushed and heat buildup is the limiting factor in the Phenom II line. 

I do think that Bulldozer involves a new core design because it will have some sort of multi-threading capability to address the hyper-thread issue.

The Bulldozer represents the next chapter of AMD.

AMD has been riding on the Atholon-64 architecture for the past 9 years. Almost every core from AMD, from Athlon onwards, was based on the Athlon architecture.

Quote from: PabloMack on April 24, 2010, 09:34:47 AMBut AMD is planning to put a GPU on the same die.

Hmm... This is the first time I heard that.

I do not think AMD will stick their GPU on their Bulldozer architecture. Sure, some versions of Bulldozer derived CPU may have ATI GPU glued to them, but it wasn't AMD's intention to serve their Bulldozers to only the gaming industry.

AMD's aim for the Bulldozer is the datacenters and super-computing industry, where massive heavy-duty data/number crunching is the top most priority.

Quote from: PabloMack on April 24, 2010, 09:34:47 AMThis could speed up processing by much more than what you see with today's GPUs once software companies like PS start to use it.  I've been reading semiconductor news and it seems that there are more problems with going to 32nm than people realize.  It involves emersion processes that depend on equipment made by suppliers that customers like Intel and AMD depend on and the technology is not there yet.  Apparently there is a considerable cost involved to do the development and no-one is stepping up to the plate.  The article seemed to be addressing the often-sited coming to the end to "Moore's Law".  I think the industry could be approaching the end of what light can do at such small scales.  What is the next step?  XRay or scanning electron beams?

Globalfoundries, Intel, Micron, IBM, and TSMC are 1st tier fabs. They get the first priority for emersion technology.

Globalfoudries, being filled to the rim with oil money from the Arab countries, already have plenty of the new equipments installed, that is why they have signed on Altera to produce the 28nm FPGA.

Emersion technology uses deep ultra violet ray that are very close to X-ray. It's safe to say that the deep ultra violet rays is usable up to the 15nm generation. Beyond that it would be X-ray (radiation) lithography, and beyond THAT it would be gamma ray (heavy radiation).

I do not foresee that happen, though.

By the time 15nm hits, the bottoms-up technology, aka nano-tech, would be ripen. And in the future, electronic chips would be "grown", particle by particle, line by line, gate by gate; Instead of "etched", like what we have today.

Quote from: piggy on April 24, 2010, 11:12:42 PM

Quote from: PabloMack on April 24, 2010, 09:34:47 AMBut AMD is planning to put a GPU on the same die.

Hmm... This is the first time I heard that.

Watch this video...http://sites.amd.com/us/fusion/Pages/index.aspx

Sure the video is 90% marketing...

So far AMD has been pretty vague about when they plan to do this.  Maybe it is planned sometime in a generation after Bulldozer.  But when they do, parallel performance could go up quite dramatically.  GPUs have already proven to speed many applications by 10X with existing graphic boards.  I have been reading about CUDA and OpenCL and something that prevents GPUs from making parallel performance even a lot better is the time delay from the serial communication between GPU and CPU.  Once the GPU is on the same die, much of this delay can be eliminated.  Let's hope things go pretty smoothly down to 11nm.  I don't think the industry has all the problems figured out yet, though.