I am not an expert on these things , but this seems like a good article.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-apple-passed-microsoft-in-market-capitalization/
Also Scientology is wildly successful... the truth is that Mac users talk and behave like cult members, that Macs are status symbols (like 600-900$ shoes for women) and people value their freedom 0 (the worst MS did was to make their programs and programs developed with their tools be better integrated with Windows, they never even dreamt of forcing people to buy some programs or developers to use certain tools).
Bye... (add a disgusted shaking head icon).
I don't really see why it's supposed to be such a big news story, ok so their company is more expensive. That's what it boils down to, their products aren't any better quality, they still haven't made a real dent in Microsoft's monolithic market share and they're fanboys are still snobby little bitches. I'll laugh when google's OS comes out because I reckon it'll eat into Apple's market share rather than Microsoft's.
People buy apple because it's not microsoft or because they know nothing about computers and are told it's good. But the stupid price tag and software incompatibility (still) won't be so attractive when there's a commercial non-microsoft OS that runs on normal, cheap hardware.
Quote from: PG on May 28, 2010, 05:19:52 AM
I don't really see why it's supposed to be such a big news story, ok so their company is more expensive. That's what it boils down to, their products aren't any better quality, they still haven't made a real dent in Microsoft's monolithic market share and they're fanboys are still snobby little bitches. I'll laugh when google's OS comes out because I reckon it'll eat into Apple's market share rather than Microsoft's.
People buy apple because it's not microsoft or because they know nothing about computers and are told it's good. But the stupid price tag and software incompatibility (still) won't be so attractive when there's a commercial non-microsoft OS that runs on normal, cheap hardware.
PG please read your comments ones more. How do you thing it will look from the Apple side ? :)
You may be right maybe. But the wording is like a PC fanboy . This is mostly the problem from either side .
I am a PC user for your knowledge. But i try to stay objective so far i can.
But the ones small Apple and the position it now is , is for me a news story ;)
No videos, no porn, no flash website, 500 to 800 €... I agree, it is a lot of noise for something not so revolutionary ! buy it if you want to be a fashion boy or to show your social statut, otherwise, wait for a true tablet (read not Mac) ^^
Quote from: Seth on May 28, 2010, 06:11:06 AM
No videos, no porn, no flash website, 500 to 800 €... I agree, it is a lot of noise for something not so revolutionary ! buy it if you want to be a fashion boy or to show your social statut, otherwise, wait for a true tablet (read not Mac) ^^
You are a strange guy in a good way Seth ;D
"Flash website" i hate flash web sites by the way !
But the way Apple handles this flash thing is monopolistic of course , and not good for their image !
Nothing to add much to the other things you said Seth
(Edit : Oops "buy it if you want to be a fashion boy or to show your social statut, otherwise, wait for a true tablet (read not Mac) " excluded ) ;D
I've got one. Reading the replies here, I'm not sure if I can assume that you have made your own experiences?
Well, I did. For me it's true: it just works and is fantastically easy to use. So what's the deal?
I don't like generalization. Like everyone owning a mac is a "fanboy" or "want to show social status", that's complete bullshit (forgive me, but it is).
It's just a tool. For me it works well. Never came across a situation that my macbook wasn't able to deal with, yet. Battery runs forever, display is just great, comes with a lot of out of the box tools and applications, makes *no* noise, OSX is fun... So what now?
Frank
Well I don't think every mac owner is a fanboy, nor do I think macs are particularly bad. They're fit for a particular purpose just like PCs. The thing I don't like about them and what would turn someone into a fanboy is when they blindly preach that macs are mystical creations of wonder that have the answer to all life's woes and cannot be faulted. PCs have faults, macs have faults. PCs are good for certain things, macs are good for certain things.
So I wouldn't consider myself as a PC fanboy either, because windows is pretty shit as well. I just prefer the extensibility of it.
I disagree Frank, it is maybe a tool for you but for the big majority of people it's just an expensive gizmo to show off with pride :) do you really think that the first million customers are like you, using it as a tool ? look at the ipod, honestly, do you think it has a better sound than a sony mp3 ? what the point to have a iphone when you don't have a job (see it many times in Paris). to me, marketing make people think they need a ipad (what shitty name)... don't get me wrong dude, you know me, i am geek enough to, as a lot of peeps, want to own one because it is a nice toy, but i truely think it is a lot of noise for something that doesnt deserve it. oh and i put my hand on it yesterday (thanks to a friend of mine). ps : and as you know me, you understood that my first post is not totally my opinion. except that i really hate not to be able to watch a lot of videos. and no webcam on this so expensive toy is a shame ! not mentioning the moralist position of steve jobs on porn... (nothing personal ^^)
"snobby little bitches"
Wait, I resemble that remark. :)
When the conversations begin with such remarks it is always doomed from the beginning ,
this is one of the most serious problems about this mac vs. pc thing.
And this wasn't my intention at all at the beginning ... !
Please guys :(
lets wait how it turns out, when people start to notice that apple is as evil as microsoft or even worse ;-)
But its interesting to see that despite the fact that mac/osx is a niche and also iPhone is a niche, they do earn so much money. Is it the iPod?
passion... :)
I don't understand why we should be PC Vs Mac...
I never owned a Mac so I found it very difficult to use but... well, it is just a matter of taste isn't it ?
i could care less about the article.
i agree with both PG & FrankB on the points in their posts, my first computer was a 486, then in 2002 i switched to macs - liked it at first, then started to like it less & less over time...
i had one of those little Flat Panel iMac's, the only thing you could really upgrade on it was the ram. :\
sure, its easier to use, simple, almost completely immune to viruses but, still there are a few things that bother me about Apple/Macs..
no DirectX support (good for games & most 3d programs), higher prices, less ATi / Nvidia graphics cards for macs, macs can use Windows OS, but PC users cant properly install OSX, then there's the lack of upgrades for most of their computers...
for me, a custom built PC was the way to go.
i don't mind using macs, but i wouldn't want to buy one of their computers for personal use, mainly cause of the cost.
i also have a ipod btw.
i still have the 486, its in my closet.
Guys am i blind ? Is there a place where it says that Mac is better then Pc or the other way around?
I think some of you are not reading what it says there , but what you want to see !
What you discuss here and what there is are different things.
Real men build their own pad out of a single $3 microcontroller and a roll of tinfoil!
Apple products simply are not for geeks - it's for people who want
to pointlessly spend money an easy to use device that makes them feel good. That's fine, but what I really hate is the hype.
Quote from: http://twitter.com/shitmydadsays"Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."
I for one don't understand why these folks don't have a higher market cap than either of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYw2ewoO6c4.
Also, just to chime in: Mac and PC are both fine. I use a Mac and am more comfortable with it because that's what I grew up with, and I'm usually able to find deals or proper buying cycles that make Mac hardware no more expensive than the PC equivalent. I think the real reason that Apple has increased its market cap so much is a) the future growth expectations of the Mac, iPhone, and iPad platforms versus Microsoft's saturated market, and b) the simple fact that the iPhone has been a runaway success, with total iPhone sales projected to hit up to 40 million units this year (don't forget that the iPhone is sold to the carriers for more than twice its cost in parts).
@Kadri: I didn't even read the content behind the link you posted. I was just commenting on the generalization comments made to this thread. I don't think anyone is angry or anything, it's just a normal debate. I know Franck. He writes some stuff. I kick his ass, he kicks my ass, and we have a laugh later on. PG usually has a valid and reasonable view on things and adds another angle to the debate. Usually in the end, Walli jumps in and writes something so utterly profound and true that we all feel like kids. So it's great, hehe :)
Hmmm... ? Then there should be someone who says Linux is the best or something in this line ,
as in most PC or Mac OS threads . Who would be that guy? Efflux ? ;D
You guys are crazy :)
Solaris FTW!!! :D
OK ! This counts too i think. LOL ;D
Quote from: FrankB on May 28, 2010, 01:40:10 PMUsually in the end, Walli jumps in and writes something so utterly profound and true that we all feel like kids. So it's great, hehe :)
cookies for all, but then brush your teeth with iBrush and then off we go to bed ;-)
:D:
Quote from: Walli on May 28, 2010, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: FrankB on May 28, 2010, 01:40:10 PMUsually in the end, Walli jumps in and writes something so utterly profound and true that we all feel like kids. So it's great, hehe :)
cookies for all, but then brush your teeth with iBrush and then off we go to bed ;-)
With iToothpaste!!!
with ifluoride!
;D
This topic's gettin' crazy. iMagettinouttahere
Planetside needs to create an app for iPad... wouldn't it be cool to play iTG2 on it ?
I hope Apple didn't pay the designers for their iPad : http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2010/01/2001s-newspad-2.html
;D
and did you see this 9 years old commercial too : http://www.generationpad.fr/files/ipad_hello.jpg
I think the iPad is a great thing. As long as your conscious about the lock-in and can be in peace with the fact, it's a nice tool. People try to make it more than it should be, and then criticize it for not meeting their expectations. Like no webcam, no USB (although there's an adapter) and various other shortcomings when compared to a netbook or a normal notebook.
The way I look at it it's a browsing machine for the couch. To browse a few site, see a few videos, read newspapers, check some email, and from time to time show a few photos if required.
It's useless for music (because at home I have my HiFi and when travelling a small ipod), and I don't think its a good book reader either. It's also very little fun to game with (kids may see this differently). It's really just for surfing and a few things left and right of that.
Most people, and I assume close to nobody, really needs it, but it's nice to have because it's convenient to use. It's like you may have a car for the family, and would love to have a convertible just for the sunny days and when you're on your own. You actually don't need it, but when you can afford it, why not? And nobody's going to criticize you for it.
So it's with the iPad, just on a smaller scale (500 USD)... I think I'm going to get one. :P
oh, and: :P
Cheers,
Frank
Lucky lucky :p that must be nice for websurfing in bed. i can't read books on a screen... i guess some people can but i don't like it...
Microsoft is still really a software company. They have had some forays into hardware like their mouse and even the XBox. But let's face it. When it comes to cell phones and embedded mobile devices, why should anyone think a bunch of SW nerds would come anywhere close to coming up with a winning product when they are up against a company like Motorola who has literally built the mobile com market since its very inception. These little devices pack so much high tech hardware into such a small device that it takes a charismatic company like Motorola to make it happen. The Droid is even kicking the pants off of the iPhone and I'm glad to see it. This is their life blood and they have to succeed in this area or it will mean the end of the line for this engineering intensive company.
Quote from: Walli on May 28, 2010, 04:55:00 PM
cookies for all, but then brush your teeth with iBrush and then off we go to bed ;-)
DYM: iCookies for all, brush your iTeeth with iBrush and then go off to sleep in your iBed. Sounds like Big iBrother must be watching us. Make sure iSteve doesn't have control of your iWallet with his iPhone.
I think the problem with the iPad, and why people are "judging it on things it doesn't do" are 1: it costs enough that you kind of expect it to have some of these features and/or be good enough for these uses 2: some of the excluded features are missing *for no good reason* and are obviously (or at least perceived as being obviously) left out for lock-in, price gouging (on accessories), and future upgrade reasons (e.g. iPad 2.0 will have a web cam, and USB could have been easy and cheap to add).
So yeah Frank, it does *what it does* just fine, but does its cost justify what it does do? That's the real question here.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on May 30, 2010, 03:58:30 AM
So yeah Frank, it does *what it does* just fine, but does its cost justify what it does do? That's the real question here.
- Oshyan
that's true.
Quote from: Kadri on May 28, 2010, 01:52:05 PM
Hmmm... ? Then there should be someone who says Linux is the best or something in this line ,
as in most PC or Mac OS threads . Who would be that guy? Efflux ? ;D
You guys are crazy :)
Actually, this is by far the best OS:
http://www.haiku-os.org/about
This is what we would be using if it was not for Microsoft. That is simple fact. BeOS, which this is based on, was lightyears ahead of both Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft even admitted that they illegally forced BeOS out of business because BeOS was so good that it would have killed Windows. Obviously Haiku is in early days. The next best thing is Linux. More people using that.
The argument of PC versus Mac is all wrong. It should be Windows versus OSX. OSX is better. No question about that but Apple have lost the plot in their hardware pricing. Especially recently.
I have a Macbook Pro which I got second hand. I got this because Apple Laptops are better than PCs. Not fantastic but just better. I'm using this for some audio production and general daily use. It's very quiet which was important. I'm not touching Windows with a barge pole for music. My main system for music is in fact now Linux. I have a dedicated stripped down machine that boots straight into the app I'm using. Hardly any desktop bloat. Not even any taskbar etc. Lightening fast. You can't do this on Windows or Mac. They are completely bloated.
However, due to TG2 I may have to use Windows. I want to buy a new system just for TG2 and sadly it may have to be Windows. TG2 on Linux Wine is too problematic and looking at Apple's pricing it just seems out of the question.
As for the iPad, I think that's a joke. I have an an old HP TC1100 slate PC here which I much prefer to any iPad. It has a Wacom screen meaning I can draw on it.
Guys these operating systems are unbearable. I've been using Linux for the last six months and I'm back on OSX. Unbearable.
Finder - what a disaster. Thumbnail views a total mess. Resizing of windows totally illogical. You have to select all images to be able move through them in preview. Cover flow - pointless eye candy. Then you have some way of enlarging the cover flow to then be able to move through the images but not just images so it shows you an image of any file icon if it can't preview anything. Go fullscreen but then you can't move through the images. Total mess.
Sorry but Linux is WAY ahead. I don't even use Gnome or KDE anymore. LXDE and OpenBox completely blows away these disasters for desktops on OSX and Windows.
On Linux running LXDE desktop environment and Openbox windows manager you can have an empty desktop which you right click to get this menu which can be configured to have anything you want on it. You can use PCman as your file manager which is absolutely simple but still superior to the Windows browser or OSX Finder. This all runs at tens of times the efficiency of windows and OSX.
http://lewk.org/img/securityspin.png
These desktops on Windows and OSX are complete disasters.
mmmh and how is TG2 on Linux ? ;D
Sadly, TG2 is not good on Linux. Icons are missing which is not a problem but the little colour squares are empty which is a problem. Rendering is slow as well. Rendering differences became more obvious when TG2 went multi core.
However, Mojoworld works brilliantly on Linux. 100% perfect. I have built a dedicated system for that. Mojo has not crashed once. Since Mojo has tile rendering you can use that to do final renderings on multi core machines. On a single core new of a new Intel multi core machine Mojo renders several times faster than an older single core machine. This is adequate for working in the app. Then you can later fire off the tiles on each core.
I don't want to start another Mojoworld vs TG2 discussion but after must be almost 7 years of no development Mojoworld is still absolutely unsurpassed in many areas, specifically it's fractals which are hundreds of times more powerful than anything else out there. This is TG2's HUGE weakness.
Just to play further devil's advocate.
Here is a shot of my current system for Mojoworld. Linux has workspaces (now copied by Apple). Here I have two. You will notice none of that standard nonsense with taskbars full of clocks, system monitors etc. There is nothing except two menus. You see one menu open in the middle of the Mojo windows which opens apps, configures windows manager etc. This menu opens with right click on desktop. The other menu beneath the Lightzone window is opened with middle mouse click on desktop and allows you to go to any open window on any workspace or add new workspaces. Scrolling with mouse wheel on desktop scrolls through workspaces. You can have a one pixel space around any open window that is maximized so when you mouse to the edge you can get those menus. The windows manager UI itself can be closed so you don't even see any title bars. In this scenario mousing to the top of a window gets you the windows managers menu for minimizing, moving to other workspace etc. You can configure these menus any which way you want. There are no graphical log ins on this system either or any other nonsense whatsoever. You can boot straight into a one user kernel with no multi user graphical display managers. Mojo starts by pressing the computers on button.
Once you work like this, these other desktops (Windows + OSX) are a bloated nightmare. I do not want to see anything except my apps and I don't want to have a bunch of bloat running in the background.
Also, Linux has never ever crashed in 5 years of me using it.
The artwork seen here is a current Mojo planet I am working on. I won't start on various things you see in Mojo here (e.g. camera stuff) that do not exist in TG2. That would take to long. Sadly you do not see a TG2 screen shot here because there are problems. It works but not perfectly like Mojo does.
This system will eventually be replicated on a quad core.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6576/workspaces.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6576/workspaces.jpg)