The illusive 'Grass Clumps'...

Started by choronr, April 15, 2007, 11:32:11 PM

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Kevin F

Quote from: sonshine777 on May 17, 2007, 09:06:52 AM

It's still a "TECH PREVIEW" that has only had one patch since it was first opened up to us. Give them a break.

Also I have seen plenty of cases were results are completely repeatable and controllable. (leaving RANT mode) :)

Well I'm not or ever was in RANT mode. - Just my opinion. But even if it is a Tech Preview it has been out for 5 months now and there's still scant documentation. Don't get me wrong - I love TG2 and the excellent service we get via the Forum, it's just that my problems raised possible solutions involving detailed information that lots of us (well me anyway!) have no knowledge of, and some of the features such as placement of objects/populations still cause problems despite being raised numerous times via this forum. Like I said first time - sorry for going on for so long!
Regards
Kevin.

Buzzzzz

#31
I imagine it would be nearly impossible to create solid Documentation for every aspect of TG at this point of Development as things will most likely change significantly from now until the final release in 6 1/2 months. Yeah, just 6 1/2 months  ;D  Even at that point in time my guess is the Documentation will be a long time coming due to the extreme complexity of TG2. I also think the Planetside staff has been as helpful as they possibly can be with all that "I assume" is going on behind the scenes to get the final out by the end of 2007.

What would be really helpful is if the Beta Testers would be more generous with the knowledge they have amassed during the last year and a half or however long it's been? I don't understand the reasoning for not sharing this experience with others? Are they still under a Hush Order even though TGTP is now available to the general public? I completely understand they are not obligated to share anything if they don't want to as that seems to be the case? Someone please correct me if I'm way off base.  :-\

Yeah I know, Test for yourself.  ;D    Akin to One Crash Test Dummy saying to the other: Hold on! I'm going to try something!  :o


sonshine777

Quote from: Buzzzzz on May 17, 2007, 11:16:27 AMWhat would be really helpful is if the Beta Testers would be more generous with the knowledge they have amassed during the last year and a half or however long it's been? I don't understand the reasoning for not sharing this experience with others? Are they still under a Hush Order even though TGTP is now available to the general public? I completely understand they are not obligated to share anything if they don't want to as that seems to be the case? Someone please correct me if I'm way off base.  :-\

Yeah I know, Test for yourself.  ;D    Akin to One Crash Test Dummy saying to the other: Hold on! I'm going to try something!  :o



Preach it brother :) I do agree more shared knowledge from the Beta's would help us all.

Kevin F

Quote from: Buzzzzz on May 17, 2007, 11:16:27 AM


What would be really helpful is if the Beta Testers would be more generous with the knowledge they have amassed during the last year and a half or however long it's been?



I completely agree! Luc Bianco has pics from TG2alpha copyrighted 2004! and the info he gave on how to produce those wonderful clouds was laughable.

Kevin.

rcallicotte

I've wondered about this, too.  In this environment I would expect to see and hear it all.  We are the users.  Why keep it from us?
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

old_blaggard

Yeah, I kind of wish that the other alpha testers would be a bit more forthcoming.  I'm guessing it partially has to do with their desire to maintain their prestige as the top Terragen users out there.  Also, I've had much more fun and have learned a lot more experimenting than I think I could have just by looking at a pre-made .tgd.  Also, even with the release of the Tech Preview, we are still under a pretty thorough NDA.
http://www.terragen.org - A great Terragen resource with models, contests, galleries, and forums.

rcallicotte

O_B, is it possible someone could possibly explain this NDA to us or give us an idea why we wouldn't be given an advantage as first-users as well?  I would almost acknowledge the fact of some sense of entitlement by the first Alpha users, but the fact is that the more we all know the more we will all be stronger in TG2.  The more people dive off into compartments, the less this product will succeed.  Guaranteed difference.

Of course, maybe Planetside is more interested in a certain elite segment of the marketplace (like the movie business) and the first users here on this site (who aren't Alpha users) are seen as simple testers who will get to learn some things but will never get to make money like a handful of other users (who are Alpha users). 

TG2 is a tool and if we can learn how to use it, great.  Otherwise, I'm not sure many of us will see the point.


Quote from: old_blaggard on May 17, 2007, 01:14:51 PM
...even with the release of the Tech Preview, we are still under a pretty thorough NDA.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

old_blaggard

I think I'll let Oshyan or someone else officially from Planetside describe the NDA to you.  However, now that I think of it, I don't think it forbids testers from sharing some of the techniques they use.  Again, though, I might not be the best one to try to explain all of this - hopefully Oshyan will turn his attention towards this thread and give a better explanation.
http://www.terragen.org - A great Terragen resource with models, contests, galleries, and forums.

Oshyan

The NDA doesn't prevent alpha testers from sharing techniques that apply to public versions. Any lack of participation here on the part of the existing alpha testers is a matter of personal choice and likely comes down to a number of factors including lack of time, personal feelings about proprietary technique, and perhaps a concern that they might be overtaxed by the obviously large amount of questions many have. I would definitely like to see more of the alpha testers contributing to the technique discussions here, but they are not under any obligation to do so.

I do think it's important to keep in mind that this is a Technology Preview. Perhaps that term doesn't have a broad enough awareness in the community but I think we've provided a lot more support, documentation and options like discounted pre-purchase than many other companies have done with their own similar releases. Obviously if we are accepting registration fees for the program we do need to provide support, however a full manual and other related documentation is really something for the final product (which of course all pre-purchasers will be able to update to). Not only does it take a long time to produce that volume of material, but as others have said there are many things that will necessarily change and having to redo or at least update the documentation repeatedly is simply a waste of time.

We do want to encourage people to use and enjoy the Technology Preview, but ultimately if the lack of documentation, stability and speed issues, or other things are in the way of that enjoyment the only reasonable choice is to avoid using it until the final product is available. We made the choice to provide this early look at TG2 technology for a number of reasons and I have to say I've been very pleased with the reception and effect it has had on the community, so I'm glad we decided to take this approach. Nonetheless it must be seen for what it is and used accordingly, with fair expectations for its current state of development.

I'll have Matt take a look at the rest of the more specific questions here as I may have bodged up an explanation, or there may indeed be a bug in the system making all of this more difficult than it needs to be.

- Oshyan

rcallicotte

Thanks, o_b.  By the way, I appreciate all of your consistent help and attention to detail to help us do better.  Thank you.


Quote from: old_blaggard on May 17, 2007, 03:40:27 PM
I think I'll let Oshyan or someone else officially from Planetside describe the NDA to you.  However, now that I think of it, I don't think it forbids testers from sharing some of the techniques they use.  Again, though, I might not be the best one to try to explain all of this - hopefully Oshyan will turn his attention towards this thread and give a better explanation.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

rcallicotte

Oshyan,

Thanks for the explanation.  After seeing the sort of documentation you provided when we first started using TG2TP, I'm convinced that the wait for the "manual" will be worth the wait.  Anyway, it only makes sense to wait for everything to be more or less "as is" before you document it.

I think it's harder for someone who doesn't do something like program to easily access the internal information it takes to toil at a program over and over until it matches said requirements.  Which is usually followed by a list of things going astray from what we intended.   ;D
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?