Lack of Comprehensive Tutorials

[Andreus]

I don't want to make this seem like I'm being whiny or unappreciative of the work you've put into this program, but as a customer (just purchased Deep Edition with the XFrog Bundle) I feel this is a legitimate complaint to make. Your product is exceptionally powerful and I fully appreciate that, but the problem I have is that there's just not enough instructional material available. You have a frankly amazing gallery of things that can be done with Terragen 2 but a relative paucity of tutorials and instructional material. I'm willing to bet at least a few people have seen a picture in the gallery, thought "Oh! That's awesome! I want to make something like that!", booted up the program and then gotten frustrated by the lack of instruction on how to actually make something "like that". I know I have.

The tutorials for Terragen 2 suffer, in my opinion, from two things: they're too specific and they don't cover enough of the very basics. Now, as someone who has had to write tutorials for creative software before - don't worry, I am very much aware of how boring it can be to write for hours about things you already know how to do. Additionally, most of the tutorials I do see cover very specific things - making sand at lake edges appear wet, realistic wind erosion on fake stones, atmospheric haze, etc.. Don't get me wrong, these are useful tips, but not much use if I want to know something more general, like how to make different shaders to look like different materials. I really think it'd help a lot more people get into the product (and purchase the full version) if there was a more comprehensive set of tutorials that covered the simple stuff. I'm willing (once I find out some of the stuff I'd be writing about) to help write those tutorials - helping a community is something I enjoy doing.

Again, I really don't want to cause offense by saying all this, it's just something I feel is a barrier to enjoyment of a product I feel I could be getting more mileage out of.

[cyphyr]

Your saying what many (scratch that, ALL) of us have said at one point or another.
This forum is probably one of the best places to learn, just dig through the past posts and please ask specific questions.
The guys at NWDA have produced some tutorials and are starting work on some video tuts as well, check them out.
Keep pushing and ask questions, sometimes the question may have been asked many times before but until you know the relevant search term you'll never find it.
cheers
Richard

[Andreus]

Well, OK, here's my first question:

Is there a way to proceedurally apply rough or smooth textures to a shader, and how do I do it? I'm trying to create a sandy beach that looks uniform at a distance but extremely granular when viewed closely - somewhat like the dust and dirt in this image. I also want to have snow on distant mountaintops which is extremely smooth and to an extent hides the roughness of the terrain beneath it. The "wet sand" tutorial actually let me give the snow some very sparse reflectivity (like real snow on a mountaintop might have) so I guess in this case a fairly specific trick did come in useful in a different circumstance.

[Franco-Jo]

Completely agree! It seems like I've spent as much time searching for information as I have in the program which shouldn't be the case. I also love the power of Terragen and think it would be exceptionally useful to develop the tutorial side to things.

[cyphyr]

That image looks very much like the dust and stones pre-set from NWDA.
You can make procedural sand by using the fake stones shader and dropping the scale right down to 1mm (or so). Three or four fake stone shaders at slightly differing scale (0.5mm >> 2mm)  and colours would be a good start. If your not looking for sand but rather, a shingle beach, the same technique but scaled up to say 5mm >> 20mm could work. Add in a scattering of larger fake stones and your done.
Hope this helps
Richard

[Andreus]

Oh yeah, now that I mention it, is there a way to restrict things like fake stones by shader layer?

I reckon that'd fix a lot of questions and problems people have in one go.

[cyphyr]

Yep, set the fake stones as a child of a surface layer and set your height and slope restrictions in the surface layer.

Richard

[Oshyan]

Your concerns are very legitimate and reasonable. We're certainly aware of and agree with this deficiency and are working to resolve it, but it's particularly hard to document an application like Terragen 2 due to its node-based, procedural, and highly flexible nature. You note that many tutorials are "too specific", which I can understand, but your questions are actually pretty specific, and if an explanation had been made that were much more general (e.g. "this is what a Power Fractal does", "this is how to connect nodes" (some of which has indeed been documented), would you then know how to answer the questions you asked? It's a difficult problem, finding the right balance between general and specific.

Fortunately we also have help from the community, NWDA being a notable example that has already been pointed out in this thread. They appear to be working on some video tutorials which I'm hopeful will be a good learning option for many people. In the meantime we continue to work on the core documentation. But it's important to make clear that this documentation can only go so far. It will be expanded from its present state to cover all of the application's functions and the settings of each node (the node reference, a work in progress), as well as basic "world building", but still this will not be able to answer many questions, much less explain how to build "that cool thing I saw in the gallery". I think the place for more specific techniques, frequently asked questions, etc. is the Wiki, which is open and user-editable (you use the same login info as on the forums).

I think we're getting to a place where the amount of documentation and overall educational resources can actually take someone over the initial hurdles needed to get to a place where they feel more comfortable experimenting and learning using your own scene ideas. Organization and better presentation of content is still needed though.

- Oshyan

[Todd]

I couldnt agree more with the initial observation. 

I'm absolutely new to landscape rendering and am trying to pick it up just for fun as I have taken a year off to write a book (my first - perhaps I'm dreaming) and want to create a novel around a specific landscape that I want to use Terragen to help me visualise. 

Despite having a degree in robotics and being fairly IT/software programming literate, I find that I'm continually frustrated by options in many terrains, shaders etc that I just have no idea what they do and the help guides in many instances just don't provide anything useful if (I'm assuming) you're not previously from the 3D terrain community.  I often find myself reading up on the web to find out what the heck something like a "Noise octave" might do and why its important, but even after researching it have little idea of what a value in Terragen may do to a scene at a certain scale, then trying to tie it all together into something like the "Fully Procedural Planet ~ BETA release" and other info I've found on the forums I think will take me well beyond the time I can give to learning this to a reasonable level.

Here's an example for the "Heightfield erode v3" documentation. I did about 60 different renders for most of a day to try and understand what it did...
Field ; "Flow Distance"
Definition on Terragen Node Reference description - NIL
Definition for layman (made up by me based on tests) - Value entered [appears to be] the distance (in metres?) that sediment from a high point will flow down to a low point. But it may also be the distance it travels before settling, as my tests don't show sediment settling if the duration is high....therefore I assume that the description on this field should probably say (if I'm correct) that sediment from each iteration of the duration will wash the sediment to a lower level.
Field ""Duration"
Definition on Terragen Node Reference description - NIL
Definition for layman (made up by me based on tests) - I assume this is the number of iterations of erosion that will be applied to the terrain, as above, I assume that each iteration of duration washes sediment from the previous iteration down one more level....
Same lack of description applies to Erosion power (I assume how deeply it cuts but the numbers are meaningless - is 0.25  equivalent to a 25cm cut per duration?), Deposition (what does "1" mean??), deposition rate (ditto), diffusion, diffusion adapts to slope, slip at angle (WTH for the last 3?)...hopefully you see my point.

Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love the product (and have extensively read the www community on 3D rendering and they tend to point me at this product repeatedly) and will readily upgrade from the free version to the commercial version once I feel I can actually use it effectively, but as it stands, the lack of 'laymans' explanations of what a setting does is limiting my ability to learn the product and to be honest if I havent got much better at it in the next two weeks I (having already spent 3 weeks trying to learn it) I'll move onto a different product in the hope I find something more user friendly - and spend my money there.   Looking at cypher's "Fully Procedural Planet BETA" just leaves me confused and embarrassed about how little I know (and in awe of what he's done).   I looked at the Vue web-site today and I'll probably try that in the next week or so, in the same way that I moved off Mojoworld after a few days of fiddling with that and went to Terragen as it was initially easier to pick up.

So rather than just whining here (which I freely admit isn't positive), I'd like to pose the following questions :-
1) Is Terragen targeted purely at the high end landscape generator professional market, and is therefore reliant on its potential client-base knowing many of the terms and functions used before they touch the product? My guess, based on the price point, is that this is not the case.

2) How did those of you those of you new to 3D landscape generation learn to use this product and how long did it take?

To give you an idea of where I've got to in the last few weeks, I can :-

a) Create a random planet (of any size) with randomly distributed hights etc and oceans.
b) Use shaders based on height to colour the planet from beach to snowline
c) Import xFrog free plant objects into the terrain and polulate patches with differing vegetation
d) Import a greyscale heightmap based on a real world file from NOAA (after some playing around in photoshop) to create a portion of terrain, but at 2900km x 2900km the northern edge sits way above the planets curved surface....and I have little control over the height of object (resizing crashes my PC- 2.4GHz 8GB RAM)
e) Import multiple segments of the above map to try and overcome the above crashes and give me more control over the shaders (eg higher snowline etc at the equator than the poles), but find the join between segments problematic - and have spent days playing with blending and going through the forum with no success so far....

The above points are included to give you an understanding that I've been able to create great random planets, colours, trees etc quite satisfactorily and relatively quickly, but as soon as I want to try and do something beyond random, the learning curve goes through the roof.  If the Terragen developers answer to (1) above is that Terrgane 2 its intended for mass appeal, then I reiterate the comments at the beginning of this thread - you need to do more for the semi-educated layman if you want this to have mass appeal - I feel that at this stage of the product, time spent creating newer, greater and more complex functions are going to be less important to your commercial success than solid documentation, and it would be a shame to see this product wither from the lack of same.

Regards

Todd

[FrankB]

Hi Todd,

It's hard to progress in TG2 if you are an analytic, engineer type person, and don't have enough documentation.
When TG2 came out it had much less functionality and it was easier to just try stuff out until it dawns on you what all those settings do. Frankly, I think most people who are TG2 savvy today have discovered TG2 in a playful way, with no deadlines or other pressure for progress. Jumping on board today has become a steeper task to accomplish, admittedly.

So here is how I would "categorize" your situation: you have a basic understanding of the building blocks of a TG2 scene, although you're lacking a source to answer some gaps in understanding some node parameters. But there is also this other difficulty that you don't know yet how to accomplish something "specific". For the latter you need to not only know the "program", but also need to know the right strategies and tricks for putting things together. The latter you might find in some specialized tutorials, but most likely you need to be an active part of a CG community (like here), and exchange know how and ideas with other fellow CG artist.

Oshyan is right in that it's hard to document something open-ended like TG2, but then on the other side the amount of progress on documentation so far is also not something to be proud of. User-contributed tutorials only go that far. More important would an excellent and holisitic node reference, especially for users like yourself, who want to just pull out the manual, read and understand the details, and then apply them in their scene.

However, even with better documentation, you would cross that line from simple/random to complex/deliberate at one point. Crossing that line often means that the time and effort you need to put into an image is exponentially larger than for the random images. I daresay that you will have that same effect with any other program out there, too.

I suggest you stick around some more, give yourself a little more time, ask questions, post renders for which you would like to overcome a certain problem etc... and that should help you make progress continuously

Cheers,
Frank

[cyphyr]

d) Import a greyscale heightmap based on a real world file from NOAA (after some playing around in photoshop) to create a portion of terrain, but at 2900km x 2900km the northern edge sits way above the planets curved surface....

In the "Heightfield shader 01" there is a tick box in the Displacement tab, "Flatten Surface first", make sure this is UNTICKED.

Also you may wish to click on the "position center" in the location tab and not use any geo referancing in the height field load tab.



Richard

ps the "Fully Procedural Planet ~ BETA release" was never really finnished (in part because of the open ended nature of Terragen and in part, well I moved on to other things (read "lazy") but if you have questions please do ask.

pps totally understand where you are coming from but as has been said its a more complex subject that it might appear. basically a Terragen "Grammer" needs to be developed.

[TheBadger]

@Todd
Hi Todd. I agree with just about everything you said. I have been using TG2 for a few short years now and have come rather far in being able to make specific worlds, still, I'm very far from where I want to be. Even so, I have to tell you that it is worth it! Every step forward has been deeply gratifying. And simply put, Terragen2 is the simplest, fastest, and i think the best way to make a world to tell a story in. I know its hard to believe some of what I'm saying, I wouldn't have believed TG2 is the simplest way forward the entire first year I was using it. But coming from a non 3D background and education, and after looking at the other programs that can do a lot of what TG2 can do, I know that everything I said is true.
You have to accept this is an art. Not an art of a kind, but a real art. And as such, it takes time to master. Terragen is the way it is so that you can be as free in creating as you would be with a brush, or pen, or so on. And no amount of tutorials will make you a master the way time will.
Having said that, again your right about there not being enough instructional materials, everyone here knows your right. But I doubt there is any question you could have right now (as a new user) that cannot be answered by this community. Ask! Talk! Share! Its the best advise there is, and Im happy to repeat those who said it above. Its the only way forward. (not trying to be preachy, just my thoughts)

[Dune]

Hear, hear. This is a great community, and if you decide to dive into TG, we'll be happy to answer questions and help you out. It ís art, like TheBadger says. Knowing how to paint won't make anyone a Rembrandt, and TG2 has hidden depths that are there to explore. If you have the time and inclination. And a warning; it's addictive!

[TheBadger]

...And a warning; it's addictive!

I think so too. Probably because its so hard to get started, that when you do make progress, a big step forward, your brain is flooded with endorphins from the victory! lol, I think there is some truth here

Terragen2, Crack for nerds!.. Its gggggggreat!

[Axe]

I agree completely with Todd.
As a new user (less than 1 month), but with extensive experience (>20 years) with other modelling/rendering packages (Max, C4D, Rhino, Z-Brush, Maxwell among others) I find the lack of documentation a serious deficit for this calibre of software.  I would at least expect a quick reference that tells me what each of the controls does.  Specifically each slider and how it affects the node.  Also how nodes interact with each other (maybe not all the details here as I can see how it can become complex quickly, but at least an overview).  At the moment it's purely guess work and lots of test renders.  I know I'm applying things wrong, or messing with sliders that ultimately have little impact on effects I'm trying to achieve, but I end up having to try every one, one at a time, and adjust each to different degrees to see what they do.  Although this trial and error (mainly error) process can lead to serendiptious discoveries, it basically is a huge time investment for something that need not be so labour intensive.  I can't see how it could be cost-effective for production houses given the time wasted due to lack of appropriate documentation.
I'm definitely of the RTFM persuasion.... and want to know what all my tools do before I start using them inappropriately 
Comparing this to painting is more like giving me a canvas, brush and watercolours but not telling me I need to mix a bit of water in the paint first.  I'd spend hours rubbing a dry brush on the paper or trying different combinations of scratching with the paint disks, pulverizing them, or trading different brushes to see which would work better dry and getting no useful results.  Sure it would be rewarding once I discovered I needed water, but also very frustrating getting to that point in the first place!
It's great to be given the amazing tools that Terragen has, but please, include a guide as to how each slider affects the use of that tool.

Axe