Elections in France

Started by TheBadger, April 23, 2012, 02:34:56 am

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AP

Yes, it is time to stop the Imperialism non-sense. You get Blow Back every time.

TheBadger

If that is true, than perhaps it is best if we all fall.
But I don't believe you. I think like in progressivism, people try to help and just get it terribly, terribly wrong.
It has been eaten.

Seth


Tyrcrash

@Seth: De mes souvenirs ce n'est pas simplement que les US, utilise leurs dettes pour être plus puissant. C'est plutôt qu'il utilise leur attractivité (toujours très forte), le statut de superpuissance globale, et tout ce qui fait que les Etats-Unis sont première puissance mondiale pour obtenir des crédits qu'il pourront rembourser mais seulement dans un certain temps  (en gros au vus de leur puissance si ils ne rendent pas l'argent tout de suite, ils ont tellement de garanti de tout de même le rendre, que les banques ne s'affolent pas). Evidemment un tel système ne marche que si il y a de la croissance. (Déjà que j'ai l'impression de pas être clair, je n'ose imaginer ce que ça va donner en anglais). Après, il faut bien évidemment dissocié le gouvernement des US, toutes les multinationales qui s'y trouvent et la population.

Après la sacro-sainte dette qui semble être l'instrument de l'apocalypse qui va tous nous anéantir et nous faire revenir à l'age de pierre, l'islamisme en plus (ironie, je précise), peut être faudrait t'il la relativiser. Deux pays ont déjà annulé la leur, l'Argentine et l'Islande. Certes ces pays ne sont ni les US, ni la France. Mais à chaque fois cela a plutôt été un succès (surtout pour l'Argentine, qui est tout de même 2eme puissance de l'Amérique du Sud et acteur incontournable du Mercosur). Et à chaque fois, personne ne les a rayé de la carte. Ce sont les Etats qui ont permis aux banques d'avoir autant de puissance et de pouvoir brader leur dettes et de permettre à certains de s'enrichir avec, il ne tient qu'aux Etats de stopper cet état de fait.

@ Seth: From my memory it's not just the U.S., using their debts to be more powerful. Rather, it uses their attractiveness (still strong), the global superpower status, and everything that the U.S. is the first world power to get loans that will pay off but only in a certain time (roughly seen in their power if they do not make money right away, so they secured all the same make, that banks do not panic). Obviously such a system only works if there is growth. Then you have obviously disassociated the government of U.S., all multinational companies located there and the population.

After the sacred debt which seems to be the instrument of the Apocalypse that will destroy us all and bring us back to the Stone Age, Islamism and more (ironically, I say), you may need it relativize. Both countries have already canceled theirs, Argentina and Iceland. Although these countries are neither the U.S. nor France. But each time it was more successful (especially Argentina, which is still the 2nd power of South America and Mercosur player). And each time, nobody has wiped out. These are states that have allowed banks to have more power and can sell off their debts and allow the funds to enrich themselves with, it is up to States to stop this situation. (here, states is not US, but country around the world, I specify that because i believe one on my sentence are not understand good -it's not your fault, obviously, but because I'm not good in English :) )
METAL.

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Seth

Argentina has large oil, uranium and gas reserves due to thier natural resources. We don't.
Iceland are not out of crisis, I need to remember you :) even with their high geothemic ressource and aluminium. We don't.

As for the growth you are talking about, you must know that, General Motors for example, to get their growth back, divided the salary of their working people by 2 !!!

Oh and in case you don't know it, the US debt is not like the french debt : we count the social security, medical security, etc... they don't !!!
the US debt  "does not count off-budget obligations such as required spending for Social Security and Medicare, whose programs represent a balloon payment for the Government as more Americans retire and collect benefits".

Kotlikoff, Astrue or Moylan say the true debt is between 60 trilions to 200 trillions... but if you think they can pay off that much money...

well I am not part of the optimistic people ;)

Seth

and again, if the USA are such powerful, how can you explain that almost 46 millions people need food stamps to survive ?!

Tyrcrash

Je n'ai pas dit que le système économique américain était le meilleur, évidemment qu'il ont un paquet de problème, le nombre croissant de personne sous le seuil de pauvreté n'est qu'une de leur nombreuse contradiction, il est fort probable qu'il arrive bientôt à implosion. Ce que je voulais dire c'est que les US ont quelque part voulu leur dettes, tandis que nous dès le départ on en voulait pas, et pour autant on a rien fait pour s'en débarrasser (même si le fait qu'un pays, de part sa nature, soit endettés c'est parfaitement normale)

Après nous avons peut être pas beaucoup de ressources naturels mais pour autant on reste 5eme puissance mondiale. Les pays basant uniquement leur économie sur des ressources naturels sont fragile: au moindre aléas, la demande diminue et c'est toute leur économie qui prend, la notre est un poil plus flexible (on a quelque secteur d'excellence: aéronautique, et plus controversé, le nucléaire) et bien évidement on a beaucoup de tertiaire. Même si l'Islande n'est pas sorti de la crise, en disant qu'elle ne paierait pas la dette, elle c'est certes aliéné sur le plan international (qui voudrait prêter à un tel pays) mais elle a rendue le problème uniquement islandais, et donc bien plus facile à régler. Alors évidement ça laisse penser que le seul moyen de s'en sortir serait de faire du protectionnisme à fond et de se replier sur soi même. C'est plus simple mais c'est pas une solution à long termes pour tout les pays.

Mais je reste persuadé que le problème principale de tout cela c'est le monde de la finance (pas du point de vue communiste, hein, l'ensemble de ces acteurs en générale), c'est à cause d'eux si aujourd'hui il y a bien plus d'argent structurale (de l'argent virtuel) que de fiduciaire (véritable argent). Il jouent avec ce qu'on a pas et font croire que tout est à portée, immédiatement. Ce qui n'est pas le cas.   


I did not say that the American economic system was the best, obviously he has a bunch of problems, the growing number of people under the poverty line is only one of their numerous contradictions, it is likely he soon comes to implosion. What I meant was that the U.S. wanted somewhere their debts, while we at the outset we would not, and so far it has done nothing to get rid of it (although the fact that a country , by its nature, be indebted it is perfectly normal)

After we can not be many natural resources but so far it remains 5th world power. Countries based solely on their economies are fragile natural resources: the lesser contingencies, demand falls and the whole economy that is, ours is a bit more flexible (it was a sector of excellence: aerospace, and more controversial, nuclear) and of course we have many tertiary. While Iceland is not out of the crisis, saying it would not pay the debt, it is certainly alienated internationally (which would lead to such a country) but it has made ​​the problem Icelandic only, and therefore much easier to solve. So obviously it suggests that the only way to get out of protectionism would be thoroughly and withdraw into yourself. This is simpler but it's not a long term solution for all countries.

But I remain convinced that the main problem of all this is the world of finance (not the communist viewpoint, eh, all these actors in general) is because of them if. Today there are many more structural money (virtual money) as trustee (real money). He played with what we have and do not believe that everything is within reach immediately. This is not the case.
METAL.

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Seth

on est d'accord sur les causes. c'est toujours ca de pris ;)

Tyrcrash

Allez on va finir ce bref échange par un léger compliment: ça m'a fait plaisir de parler avec l'un (le?) plus grand artiste français de Terragen :)
METAL.

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TheBadger

April 26, 2012, 04:17:48 pm #24 Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 04:19:22 pm by TheBadger
Quote from: Tyrcrash on April 26, 2012, 02:16:59 pm
Allez on va finir ce bref échange par un léger compliment: ça m'a fait plaisir de parler avec l'un (le?) plus grand artiste français de Terragen :)


You are a great TG artist Seth, its just a fact.

Thanks guys, believe it or not, I now know a lot more about France then I did. What surprises me the most is how similar everything is! Politics and opinion (among regular people).
I did not expect that, probably just miss conceptions on my part, since I have never visited.

@Tyrcrash
you sound rather optimistic too. To tell the truth in my heart I have hope things will work out like you and ChrisC, I just don't find it likely in France or the US. Even China cannot sustain its model for to long.
But I would be very, very happy to be wrong (About US and France).
It has been eaten.

AP

Quote from: Seth on April 26, 2012, 09:39:08 am
and again, if the USA are such powerful, how can you explain that almost 46 millions people need food stamps to survive ?!


This is the best answer for that question. This man predicted the Housing Bubble crash and clearly points out that our problems go back for a long time. The video is long but quite and eye opener.

http://youtu.be/zdB9I79BQRI

Tyrcrash

@TheBadger: Perhaps it's because I'm 18 years old, in 20 year I probably sing a different tune  :-\
METAL.

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AP

Well, if it is of any consolation i am 35. I think it all boils down to one's perception and attitude of the world. I am a realist as well but not the doom and gloom type. History has it's ups and downs like a fractal sine wave.    ;D

Tyrcrash

Yes, I think is true, but people prefer to think, that despite the brevity of their lives, they have the chance to live at a turning point in the history of humanity while this might be simply a period of the curve...
METAL.

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penang

With the victory of François Hollande will France break the European Austerity pact it signed with Germany?

Greece looks like it's going to exit the Euro zone pretty soon