Started by cajomi, May 26, 2007, 03:47:31 am

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What TG2 has is amazing POTENTIAL.  Honestly, it has the chance of being the most amazing landscape generating apps ever.  I believe this is the frustrating part for all of us, since the bugs and lack of some key features are holding us back from making the breath-taking artwork this app is capable of generating. 

Granted, we were told from the beginning this is a tech preview, and accepted this.  However, most of us were not expecting to wait THIS long for some key features (or atleast bug fixes) to be implemented.

With this in mind, I think the best thing Planetside should do RIGHT NOW, is to start releasing smaller incremental updates/patches as created, instead of waiting to finish one big one.  People want to work RIGHT NOW with the most effective version, especially the paying ones like myself.   The odds are high they have already fixed alot of the issues that plague the current version of TG2.  If this is true, they should realease them, even if it pushes back the release date.   Releasing tiny updates or patches frequently would keep our morale up.  We'd know progress is being made, and TG2 IS on the way, if even its taking alot of time.

As such, we can only speculate as to what is going on behind the scenes:  Maybe there is a huge unsurmountable problem Planetside can't overcome in the code?  Maybe they are short on staff?  Maybe there is lack of funding?  Maybe Planetside's moral is a bit low.  If so, guys, this application is amazing!  Keep up the great work! 
mood-inspiring images and music


May 27, 2007, 07:11:22 pm #31 Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 07:20:57 pm by DeathTwister
First off before I forget, right on Moodflow brother I agree, now lets get this post to matt so he can check this all out /smiles.

Brother Cojami,

  I am not going to keep this going as I have way to much to do, but I saw some stuff you posted so decided to respond. First off I never disagreed with you about wanting stuff done, I as well would dearly love to see this all done ands looking and working great. It was the way you made your post that got me going. Having said that.......

Quotelooks like you are a bit slow in understanding:
I do not post my critic to the TG2 development as artist, but as developer. To get GeoControl fitting to the upcoming release of TG2, I need a usable version.
I code normally 10-12 hours a day, and so I have not much time to play around with TG2. But it would be really nice, to have a version, with the simplest features implemented for easy use. That is what I am missing and that means for me, that I will have to make an update, after TG2 was released.
At time I am developing the river and lake tool, and it would be nice to see the result in TG2, but this version is to time intensive.

Wow if you had just brought your concerns like you just did without the Arian attitude the first time, this would never have happened. Minus the put down crap, you could go far oh grasshopper.
  I kinda figured you were either trying to get people ready for GC2 and have them come over the way you were talking or was trying to make desention among us, or like me sometimes we just get off on the wrong foot, and never stop until our feet are all the way in our mouth.
  Actually how can you code well if you never take the time to play my good man? that is part of beta testing, maybe you should spend more time creating art.  Work 10-12 hours on coding, another 4 on art.   So since you cannot get the code updated until they do finish, why stress and complain?  Don't you have a pipeline to Matt? or is this the way you get his attention? also I am still waiting for you to toot your horn with some awards and more art that you have done besides the few pictures I saw on your website?

QuoteAs developer a good usability is for me a very important part of the software. So of course, GC is nothing for you, you can not say, your are a man, because you can use it. The results will only show if you are an landscape artists. That is the reason, why even my alphas are easy to use. Only if it is easy to use, the testers are really able to work with it, and so to get results, where it is clear to see, what must be improved. If one user says, it is not easy to use, his problem, but if it is at least nearly the half of the community that switch back to old version or simply stop producing anything, then a developer really should wake up.

Humm, well lets see, OK well I use L3DT and I think it is hands to shoulders above GC myself, no that is not a put down, just a preference on software I like to use.  I found GC a bit to simple and didn't have the tools I wanted to use for projects so I went back to L3DT and never came back.  I do or did use it once in a while to move file names around some, but that was boring and found better solutions to my delemas. Yes you can get results, but for me, not the ones I thought that this artist needed for the projects I have been working on.

QuoteIt is pity, that you use discussions about software, to push yourself in the foreground. And it looks, like you are wishing, that TG2 will stay bad usable, because you then can get the feeling, your are more than others, because you use it. It looks, like all your talking is not about the content but about yourself and how great you are. Hope, you will find some day enough self confidence to simply take part and say your opinion without provocations, without saying how great you are, or how great and small others are, without this hahas and with really interest.

ROTFL ROTFL hahaha lolol I am sorry Cajomi but you a funny man.  None of that is true and your arian attitude is showing through.  I was using my art as an example only that things are working and not my ego.  Oh by the way where are the links to your masterpiece art I thought you said you did?  I am happy to bow to your mightiness if you show us all the light. In fact I have been getting private emails that show I was not the only one not happy with what was said, but those are private like I said.  I have many friends here, so was not surprising.  When one comes to the table to share and help it is always best weather your a developer or an artist to come hat in hand, instead of a German tank breaking down walls trying to be heard, which you have oh mighty one you have /bows.  But what you just said is Bull plucky......

QuoteI am sure, I am not the only one, who misses informations about the development, updates of the tech preview (it must not be the final release) and improved usability. But guys like you make many of them keep quiet, mostly if they are not sure, whether it is their problem, because they are a bit stupid, or whether TG2 is really bad to use. And if they read this thread, they make think, that they are right not to say it here.
To say it now clear: TG2 is not so difficult to use, because of its unbelievable power, but because the developer Matt has not spend enough time in creating a good and understandable work flow. That is a real hard critic to a software. But the success of TG 0.9 was based on the ease of use in combination with the incredible realism of the renders.

Well that is total and utter bullchit, I see good discussions all the time on the websites and forums, what the hell are you talking about dude?  You know there is a way to do it right, or do they ignore you there so you thought to try this? this is Not even worth responding to.

QuoteMatt said, that the first tech preview will not be easy to use, because of the node interface. That is not correct. That are not the nodes, nodes can be very usable. The problem is another. The logic is to far away from any conventions, the naming is not clear. Some functions should be separated and optimized.
At all, as developer I would say, such improvements can be done in four weeks for the complete Gui (full time developer) and would make TG 2 usable for the greatest part of the community. And I am missing exact such an update.

Sounds to me like you and Matt do not get along?, and I wonder why? hummmmm Oh I see it may be your Arian attitude dude?, maybe tone it down some?  So when is your preview coming out? I want to see this and see how much better you do then this has produced, with your attitude it must be perfect with no flaws, and no bugs right?  I know that is why 3DWS went belly up because of the way they tried to deal with GG as they had ego issues as well with each others developers and 3dws lost, be careful that does not happen to you my friend.

OK I am done this as this a waist of my time and this should go to Matt really so I think I will send him a link so he can address this poor man and maybe give him a helping hand as it seems he needs one badly.
As for the rest of you guys? your all right and awesome on the money and thanks for the emails I have gotten and the support I have received from many of you in private.  I will not tell you what they think of all this, it was not flattering at all ROTFL rotfl /smiles.

  We would all like to see things get better ASAP, but good programing takes time, I have one of the best in the world working for me and my company and I know what it takes to code good, and speed only makes mistakes as any good craft person would know, so I have my doubts about Cajomi in many ways, and I still have not seen one other link to any of his work, or not one Award that he has won as an artist for all his put down of others, so he kinda blows out the side of his mouth I think.  At least with the Arian attitude which I hate in white people, and yes I am white, as Arian Hitler got us in trouble and as Arian Bush is doing now so I call this "the Arian bullshit effect", and Cajomi seems to fit the bill in this way. Now this all makes me no better then him, so I am shutting up at the end of this email and apologize to all but Cajomi. Peoples tudes can really tick me off sometimes, and as an artist not a programmer I love this software. Cajomi just hit my anger sweet spot I guess /chuckles.....

  I think TGD2 rocks and anyone who don't ain't to bright. No one said theres not allot of work to be done on it, but please keep in mind we do have a chance to play with this now which is better then if they had not released it until the end of this year or the beginning of the next, don't you think? OK I am done have fun guys, and I am outa here /winks /smiles/ laughs /bows and gone.

Maylock Aromy DeathTwister Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions


Fellows, this is a good and important discussion to have, and we'll respond in an official capacity soon. For now I just want to ask that the politics and personal attacks cease. This is not the place for it, and I'm speaking of the entire forum. Cajomi is an accomplished and well respected developer of a successful terrain generator and editor. Maylock is a skilled, knowledgeable, enthusiastic artist. Please respect each other and always assume that comments are meant with respect, especially when there are language barriers (as there are here).

If more personal comments are made or there is more baiting I will have to lock this thread and I'd really rather not - as I said I think these are important things to discuss.

Thank you all for understanding.

- Oshyan


May 27, 2007, 10:32:58 pm #33 Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 10:44:21 pm by DeathTwister
Brother Oshyan I agree and as I said I did get out of control a bit in my last email,

So I do humbly apollagize at least for my actions and actually have no idea why I did get into it so heavy, but I did, and as I said I have said my piece in all this. I guess I hate it when people put this program down and started defending tgd2, but that was no excuse for me to fly off the handle with my Arian cracks bull pucky. I am a bit sensitive that way I guess,  But that was what it sounded like at the time to me and I should have just kept my mouth shut, like I will from now on /bows....One thing I have learned over the years is you sure cannot hurry up programmers and developers in any way, it will get done when it gets done and not before, so I try and be mellow and waight and give feedback when and whare possible.  This post sure was not that one for me anyway.

And yes Cajomi is a very good developer and does make a good product, but was just very surprised about all the rest was all coming from such as he is.
I truly am sorry things got so out of control between us. I never should post before i have at least one cup of java in the morning, I guess I get a bit cranky sometimes, maybe the same for brother Cajomi.

  I take my hand out to shake in friendship as this is what it is all about and your right, I forgot we are from differnet countries and have different values sometimes, and I need to remember that fact more.  as do we all.  How bout you Cajomi let sleeping dogs lie and go out and have a beer? /smiles.....I'm game /winks. I actually just about never have posted such a post before except for on 3dws long time ago, and I plan to keep it down to a minimum for sure that way.
It really is about us all working together growing and learning together and sharing and yes, what I was doing in return was not it on this post exactly, to Quote Homer Simson
hahaha but not really that funny. 

Maylock Aromy DeathTwister Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions


Thanks DT. I'm sure we can all be friendly. :)

- Oshyan


Well, may be my critic was a bit to general.

I think, everyone who is posting should have the chance to be heard, no matter whether he is a top artist or a newbie, whether he is developer or not. Because of this, I will not post a link to more artwork.

That angry arian part, well I think enthusiastic people are sometimes very fast, when they are writing, so I am. It looks, like this part of our persons, I mean you DeathTwister and me, leeds sometimes to more sharp or hard words, than they are really meant. But on the other hand, I like discussions more that are hot than the boring ones. Often there things are said , that elsewhere would only be thought but never telled.
So, when I critize so hard, that is because I love TG2, not the opposite. Else I would put my attention to other places.

For me the worst point in the TG2 tech preview is, how imported terrains are handled. I think it is easy understandble, why this is a very important point to me.
Developer of GeoControl


Cajomi, can you give some more specific thoughts on the issues you see with imported terrains? Of all the issues you've raised (most of which I agree with), this is one I am not sure I fully understand. Certainly I see some issues, but they don't seem major at the moment. But as the developer of a terrain modeler I'm sure you see things that I don't.

- Oshyan


I think what is needed is for one of the staff here at Planetside to post and sticky the forum rules, as I don't see them any where on the site that might help a bit. Back to the topic at hand it is only natural that people will defend some thing if they see it been attacked, that is par for the course of human nature and this applies as much to software as it dose with any thing else, the nature of forums such as these means that as in the real offline world people will defend them selves and friends if they are been attacked.

Software is a classical example of "You can't please all of the people all of the time" no matter what features you have no matter how good they are, some one some where is going to be disappointed; then you (As a developer and vendor) never here the end of it until said feature/s are included.

This is hard enough if you happen to be a multinational like say Newtek or Autodesk it's even harder for a relatively small entity like Planetside with much smaller human capital bases.

There are two kinds of argument, augment of the first kind is the negative, destructive kind that leads nations to war and families to break apart and generally leads to distrust and loathing of ones fellow man generally unpleasant yet occurs all to often in human nature.

Argument of the second type (Called rhetoric by the Greeks and consider by Aristotle to be a critical part of a mans education) but which we will call debate here, is necessary and positive and leads to progress and the betterment of both the self and mankind; without which there is only stagnation and likely regression.

Regards to you.




The imported terrain are lying flat on the curved surface of the planet.

After import you first have to add two operators: one for the height adjusting, one for the sizing, and set the values.

To use a mask, you have to do many things, to get it working. Fitting is not easy, because the preview does not show the fine details you need for example for flowmaps (left corner, center?). After changing the size of a imported terrain, you have to readjust all masks.
I am missing there an alphachannel that is separated from the fractal breakup and that has the option to fit simply to the heightfield. A slider, which produces a total overaly with the mask in the breakup, does not make much sense to me.
In GC2 there will a white/grey/black point setting, which makes much more sense and allows it, to use the same mask with very different results. At time, you have to change to photoshop, then back to tg, and that more than one time. To see the results, you must use the renderer, which at all costs very much time.

I am not sure, whether I am to stupid, but it did not find a "orbit" camera tracking, so that the camera moves around a selected object or heightfield. I really liked the old 2D preview of TG 0.9 and only missed there a zoom  function. For me it had shown, that it is in great landscapes the best way of camera moving.

Developer of GeoControl


May 28, 2007, 01:09:23 am #39 Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 01:12:50 am by DeathTwister
I'm headed to bed but Cajomi had a good point about....

Quotebut it did not find a "orbit" camera tracking, so that the camera moves around a selected object or heightfield. I really liked the old 2D preview of TG 0.9 and only missed there a zoom  function. For me it had shown, that it is in great landscapes the best way of camera moving.

yes very astute Cajomi and not only that but I find since we put a terrain on a planet that when we move the camera and after it goes off the actual square that it defaults on you can loose the camera completly and never see it again.  ROTFL.
That happened to me many times and could not figure out how to not only where I was really but could not get or set easiely any plants, mesh or just about any other import due to I could not see what I was doing.  It would be nice to have the terrain editor always follow the camera at least so we can always have a center to center on, and I could never get to do that.  But I am a dummy at times, and may have missed some button that automatically recenters the camera, but I never found it, and have so little time other then Tuts here and there I always like to just learn by playing like it is a video game and figure it out as I go. dum huh? but I get a kick out of it.  XCan we have multiple cameras in the free version? and in the full version? I just thought of that. Nope just checked at least not in the free version and that would be nice.  also would be nice to be able to actually see the mesh we import in as that would help a whole lot, but the cameras do not see the .obj very well, adnof course as Cajomi says the render time is a killer for sure, but not as bad as Bryce is for rendering hi quality, well mostly but I have tried some stuff that I had to give up on it was taking so long to render.
Another feature that would be nice as like in Bryce it would be sweet to be able to import what we want in where the camera can see it so we do not have to figure out where it is all the time.  Doing the Orbital render contest on design paths was not easy and I got lost a bunch before I started getting used to being in space hahahahaha, and got used to being upside down in my thinking, no siree not easy at all to do, but it was a fun fun contest for us all and I think we all learned allot. And I as well do like the way the camera worked in the old TG the way it was set up, but I do not think with tgd2 and working with a world  instead of dems or .ter files that that really would work for the new tgd2 now since we have to think in a circle, so there in lays the rub I bet. However the camera in the terrain window is a start, and it would be very nice if we could make that window bigger so we could see better what we are trying to do. hahaha Boy do I have my lists to put on planetside, my wish list is not small hahaha.

I always come at things from the dum artist point of view, meaning I know very little about programming and when it is simple in my workflow that is best, but guys, do I love the bells and whistles and layers of goodies that can be played with after the first simple GUI's. The nodes have there good points and there strange points to me so far, and yes I am getting used to them, such as they are atm, and I love the way tgd2 layers the shaders muchly.

Maylock Aromy DeathTwister Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions

The Geostation

Hi Cajomi,

I guess it's really "horses for courses" or personal preferences.   Different people get on with different software, probably because we think in different ways.   For me, after a few days of experimentation and study, I found TG2TP and World Machine very easy to get the effects I am looking for.   Conversely (and this is not an attack, but a personal preference) I have had difficulty with Geo-Control (in getting the fractal landscapes and embellishments I want) and with Vue 5 (in terms of its nodal networks).   For me (particularly with no 3DSMax experience, TG2TP's nodal network designer is for more intuitive than the one in Vue.

You mentioned that TG2TP seems to be a "spare time project".   In that past that is certainly true, and it may be so now.   However even if it is, I very much appreciate Matt's work and believe he is on the right lines.   I have a lot of faith in his output.   Also I've found that there is a massive scope for experimentation with what we have right now, so much so that I doubt I'll have tried everything before the next major update (but that's not to say I won't appreciate seeing an update soon).

All the best with your work on Geo-Control,

Andrew Randle
The Geostation


Do I understand you right:
You think, there is no need for improvements in working with imported terrains?
And that you see the problems only in my own preferences?
Developer of GeoControl

The Geostation

May 28, 2007, 06:19:12 am #42 Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 06:32:34 am by The Geostation
I haven't really had that much trouble with importing terrains (see here http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=1431.0), and heightfield functions can always be added to modify the scaling.   It's also possible to combine multiple heightfields - such as merging them or laying them side-by-side.

My observation is that if you think that Geo-Control represents your ideal interface (an interface which I couldn't get my head around), and TG2TP represents my ideal interface (which you are having difficulties with), then it kind of illustrates that different people like different ways of doing the same thing.

Andrew Randle
The Geostation

Harvey Birdman

The natives are restless...

It seems there are serious signs of discontent in the user base. We are promised an official response soon... . These descriptions of TG being a 'spare time project' are a bit disconcerting. As I said earlier I too paid for the preview and felt I received a fair value for the money. BUT!! it was also understood that I was helping to fund/spur development of the final completed product and I was under the impression that I was dealing with a serious entreprenurial venture.

I begin to doubt.

Oh, and DT? You seem to feel you have something important to say - at least the volume of your screed would so indicate. If you truly want people to read and pay attention to your thoughts, try dropping the juvenile Clockwork Orange crap.


@the geostation

In general:
I think, it is not so much a question, what way you are thinking, but what you want to realize. A software does not fit to persons, but the tools of a software fit to the goals, or not, of an artist. 
So, if you get a new idea for a landscape, it might happen, that exact the tool, you before see no great advantage in, is the tool you need now. It is not a philosophie or religion, but simply what functions do you need to realize your ideas. So it is also (for example) not a question of Vue or TG2, but for what do you want to use them.

And for version 2 of GeoControl the masking will be much more important. It will not only introduce really new selection methods, which TG2 is no capable of, but also deep improved flowmaps. It is not only the erosion, but even more the changes of materials (which is reflected in the flowmap) which is visible in nature. And to use this features of the upcoming GC2 in TG2 the workflow with masks is very important.
The sizing problem I mentioned above only appears, if you work with masks/image layers. Else, you can simply import the terrain and that is all. Working with masks was easy work in TG0.9, with a plugin, and it is really no improvement, if it is now a much more time eating work.

And yes, I am definitly tired of those post, saying, I have no problem, so TG2 is the best, it must be you who have problems. For havens sake, we are talking about improvements of a software, so why this permanent personal perspective?
Quoteand TG2TP represents my ideal interface (which you are having difficulties with),

This is a classical personal attack, comes friendly, but who says, that attacks can not be wrapped in a nice paper?
Developer of GeoControl