What the heck did you Planetside folks do with the GI settings?

Started by AndyWelder, August 24, 2013, 02:46:47 PM

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AndyWelder

Finally I did calm down enough to post this here, my frustrations with TG3 kept me from posting anything here because I was afraid things could get very ugly.

What are my frustrations you ask. To begin with one of the minor ones: TG2 files do take long to load and often TG3 simply does not respond at all and Task Manager is required to close it. This behavior I found out also did occur with other users. Look here: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2871692.
But the main frustration is the long render time where as there was said TG3 would render faster.... It wasn't till I opened a TG2 project in TG3 Creative I found out render times took three (!) times as long to finish. After a couple of tries I gave up, left TG3 unused and went back to TG2. A couple of searches through this forum only fueled my frustrations because all I found on the subject of render times where either articles on TG2 or hallelujah like posts without much detail. It did kill any interest in looking into this further.
It was the post at Renderosity that gave me a clue on what could be wrong. I found out that in the transition from TG2 to TG3 the GI settings got insane values (or what used to be insane values in TG2)! In the first attached image you can see my default settings for a final render in TG2: GI Relative Detail of 3 and GI Sample Quality of 4. Nothing too extreme, right? Now look at the values for GI of that same project file loaded in TG3: "GI cache detail"of 10?? Insane! Unless TG3 uses a different scale? And the render times? In TG2 the scene took about 1.5 hour to render, in TG3 this took almost 3 hour to finish.

Now this tells me Planetside did change GI settings (which in itself is not a bad thing) but did not give any information on how! No documentation, no recommendation! And that, ooh, is sóóó frustrating!!

A simple question: How do these values compare to each other. Or even simpler: What values do I use in TG3 to match the values from the TG2 file?

Edit: And another question: What's that with  the "GI surface detail" enabled by default? In TG2 this was considered to be a waist of time unless rendering something very close-up. What has changed there?
"Ik rotzooi maar wat aan" Karel Appel

dandelO

Same for me, Andy. I thought it was just my hardware not liking TG3 but now you're mentioning it too. Render times are longer with every single scene I've tested with.

A quick, untaxing test scene that I noted down all the values from went like this:

1 fractal terrain, 1 base colours, 1 low level cloud, raytrace/defer atmo=off.
TG2 - 2m:05s
TG3 - 2m:32s
The same scene with raytrace/defer atmo=on:
TG2 - 4m:54s
TG3 - 5m:47s
There is mention of an increase in atmosphere render time when soft-shadows are sampled. I haven't used soft-shadows in any tests.
I also noticed that portions of rendering sky with 'defer atmo' checked has scruffy, jaggy edges in TG3(as if motion blur or DOF is being rendered, it isn't, though), whereas TG2 rendering portions were perfectly straight edged and much quicker.

If you look in the 'docs' folder for TG3, you'll find the 'changes' document. It has a short description of how the new GI maps in relation to the old GI. But, correct, there are no instructions, or even any 'official documentation' updates on the website, for any of the new GI settings yet.

AndyWelder

QuoteThere is mention of an increase in atmosphere render time when soft-shadows are sampled. I haven't used soft-shadows in any tests.
I did stop using Soft Shadows a long time ago because I prefer fiddling with the quality settings of the atmo. And I did check too see  if this was still unchecked  ??? *Mmmh, "Check, uncheck...."* ::)
"Ik rotzooi maar wat aan" Karel Appel

Oshyan

I completely understand your frustration but it's unfortunate that you did not first and foremost *contact support*. That's what we're here for. No question is stupid, no concern is invalid. If you have questions or problems, let us know *ASAP*! *Before* it gets to this point of frustration.

You're absolutely right that documentation should be available for the new GI settings. We'll get that taken care of ASAP and we certainly apologize for not having done that sooner. It was intended, but got overlooked in the final push to launch.


The only change for the base GI settings is "decoupling" the GI detail from the main detail, which gives you more control over GI independent from your render detail. This is useful for several reasons, in particular it allows you to maintain a constant GI detail even as you change render detail, so the GI results won't change (potentially significantly) between low detail test renders and higher detail final renders. It also allows you to reference GI settings across projects and between varying detail settings and know that they are the same. The new values are definitely different than the old ones, though loaded TG2 files should have "equivalent values" selected automatically. The documentation we'll provide will help you better understand all this and the equivalent settings to what you're used to.

GI Surface Details is handled completely differently now, as noted in the TG3 release and marketing materials. It adds a minute or two to most average-length renders (much less for low detail test renders), far from the huge increase (often doubling of render time) in TG2, and the results are also better. It's not something you should shy away from or treat at all like the old GISD. It is one of the biggest benefits of rendering in TG3, and it's enabled by default because of that, and the relatively low render time impact. Of course you can always disable it, and turn it off for your default project as well, if you want to.

Regarding render time differences, TG3 will in some cases render a *bit* slower than TG2 due to changes we had to make to support the extensive Render Elements system. But there were other optimizations made that can often make up for this, and using the newer features of TG3 such as 2D shadow maps for localized clouds can actually provide notable speed-ups. More important to your situation, *equivalent settings* between TG2 and TG3 should absolutely not be resulting in a 3x, 2x, or even 1.5x render time for TG3. Without GISD on TG3 should be generally equivalent to TG2 in most cases. When doing such testing it's critical to create the scene in TG2 and render it in both TG2 and TG3, because TG3 has some new settings enabled by default (like GISD) which can affect render times. I've just done a similar test to dandelO's and my render times are: 25s TG2, 24s TG3, for a very simple scene. Upping detail to 1 and AA6 gives me: 2m7s for TG2, 2m27s for TG3. So definitely a bit slower (about 15%), and that's not ideal, but it's certainly a far cry from 2x render time. The performance issue is something we'll continue to look into and improve, of course.

The changes to the soft shadow handling were partly rolled back in the final release, 3.0.07.0. See the final change log here, 2nd line of the 3.0.07.0 changes: http://planetside.co.uk/tg3-release-changelog
But it should be noted that those changes should have also resulted in higher overall quality and the idea was that you could reduce soft shadow samples to compensate, in cases where the render times were higher. It was decided that the potential gains weren't worth the complexity, so we're working on better approaches to that.

Renders with Defer Atmo should look virtually identical in TG2 and TG3, as far as I'm aware. If you can provide examples where the results are noticeably worse in TG3 with exactly comparable settings, please do share that. There may well be a bug somewhere in there that we could address.

- Oshyan

dandelO

Hi, Oshyan. I should've been a bit clearer in that part about defer atmo. I just meant to say that *as the scene is rendering*, before it is AA'd, there seems to be something different to how TG now draws. In v2, sections of atmo rendering would be drawn with perfectly squared edges until the entire bucket was filled, it just doesn't draw the same way in v3 for me, there seems to be a rough edge to atmo in unfinished buckets, but once it has been AA'd the results are(to my eye) identical, not that there's any less quality, I just thought that there had been a change to the method TG3 uses to draw rta and that that was maybe one of the reasons why it takes longer to render the same scene in TG3.

Sorry for barging in, Andy.

Oshyan

Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. Yes I believe there were some changes which would explain what you're seeing. The important part of course is that the end result looks the same. As to render time differences, well my reply above hopefully addresses that.

- Oshyan