what is normal

Started by TheBadger, September 15, 2013, 07:26:04 PM

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TheBadger

No really!

In film what is normal for number of texture maps on an object? And with respect to terragen, what is normal in films for objects that are rendered in terragen; A hero object like a castle for example. What I mean is in general, what are some rules of thumb?

Im not sure about whats ideal... The net is overrun with discussion about game development. In the case of games it is necessary to make things as "lightweight" as possible.
But in film, is it the ideal to also get things down to just one or two texture maps? My feeling is no (multi tiling ;)), But what is a good rule of thumb?

Im working on a series of architectural structures. I want to render them in TG, but also Maya. THere are different ways I could go as I simplify and combine object parts. I could even eventually get the objects down to just one texture (painted). And while that would be the simplest in terms of moving an obj around, I am sure its not the best way if high quality is the goal (one UV for an entire model?  :'().

And in the same way, what is the ideal for object parts... One Object and one UV, is the cleanest, but again not necessarily the best way to do things, especially when mapping.
It has been eaten.

mash

As a general rule there is usually a Color map, Diffusion or Dirt map, Specular, Bump, Normal and displacement if needed. And maybe an ambient occlusion map.
As far as size and amount that usually depends on how close the camera gets to the object.
Film resolution is 2K or 2048X1536, 4k is 4096x3072
If it's going to be a hero shot the texture resolution is usually double what the render resolution is.

As much of a pain as it is one UV per object is the best way since you can get the maximum resolution
per object. You could break it down to Tower, front gate, walls etc.
In the case of a castle you may also break down the textures to the stones and the grout so each color be could be changed in post independently.

Objects are also broken down so you can isolate parts of the object for an RGB pass.
Hope that helps some.

TheBadger

Very helpful! It has been hard for me to find concrete statements online about what should be the basic norms of things.

But if I may, please look at this model. I have many repeating elements. The columns for example are all the same, however in one version of the complete model, the building will be a ruin. Thus the columns will be different (sculpted perhaps). So I am not sure If I should map just one and copy it to each location (the result is the maps lay over each other in the same spot), Or make the columns all fill a separate UV tile.

I agree one UV has advantages. But the parts that are smaller will not have the same resolution as the bigger parts that get more UV space... This was not intended to be yet another request for multi tile support, but well, here we are again.

Please look at my image, as you can see not a castle. But I think relates the same issues. I used a castle example because it felt like a good example. But now that I heard your rules of thumb, I also want to hear what you say seeing the actual model. Im just confused about how to deal with the columns given the good info you posted.
There are more columns then are visible in this capture.

And again, in one version of the model the columns will all be the same, but in this example the structure is a ruin, and the amount of destruction on the individual columns will be different.

It has been eaten.

Dune

What you could do is map all the columns separately (cylindrically) to the same map, but shift them about on the map (which shouldn't be too small then), so they all take some different colors. And/or add a world space variation in TG, which is what I always do.

Andrew March

There really is no 'normal' at all i'm afraid. It really depends on the object and whether or not it might be considered a 'hero' model. I have models from several blockbuster movies and well known TV shows that use very few image maps as the great majority is geometry. On the other hand I have a couple of models that use multiple maps in colour, diffuse, luminosity, gloss, specularity, bump, etc and they have upwards of a hundred image maps.

TheBadger

@ Ulco,
"What you could do is map all the columns separately (cylindrically) to the same map, but shift them about on the map (which shouldn't be too small then), so they all take some different colors. And/or add a world space variation in TG, which is what I always do."

I'm afraid that this statement just confused the heck out of me. When your talking about the columns, do you mean just the columns?.. So that I map all of the columns in one texture map, and do the rest of the structure separately? And the rest of what you said your talking about using fractals to add color, dirt to the model, right?

@ Andrew
Thank you. But what you wrote was what I was afraid of. I was really hoping there was some point at which all possibilities stem from. A place to work everything to, and then from there decide what needs to be done next. But as I model and think about the final output, things appear to need to be decided very early, even from the very start.

I guess I am trying to model all of these ruins (and un-ruined variations) as heroes. Because I want to be able to use each of them in several different contexts (shots). Very close and rather far away.

There really is no easy way to do this :-[ I fear I will have to do a different version for each variation of each model :'( And that may be the only "normal" part.

I have to say that Multi UV tile object support would make things a lot simpler for the Terragen part. Then at least I could have all of those UVs in just one map. And still have all the resolution I could ever need.
It has been eaten.

Andrew March

You have pretty much hit the nail on the head, FX Houses will nearly always build several versions of a model, sometimes only one of which will ever be used but those seen from a distance will have less geometry and rely on image maps to fool the viewer.

Dune

Yes, just the columns. But it depends on how different columns are from the rest. They're carved from different pieces of stone, so differences may occur. If you want it all smoothly blended, you might as well texture it procedurally in TG, or make different parts and texture these procedurally in TG (in world space). Sandstone or marble is not too hard to do. Then you don't even need mapping them, if I'm right.

j meyer

Quote from: Dune on September 18, 2013, 04:16:44 AM
... in TG (in world space). Sandstone or marble is not too hard to do. Then you don't even need mapping them, if I'm right.
Not only your right that mapping is not required with this method,it's even better without
mapping.(at least in my experience,that is.)

TheBadger

It has been eaten.

penboack

#10
If you are using 3D textures based on noise shaders in any 3D application like CINEMA 4D, Maya, or modo, to name but 3, you can create masks in 3D to define the blocks, by using 2 noise based shaders with different seeds you can give each block a unique texture (they need to be in world space, not object space for this to work).
This allows you make the columns appear to be made of separate blocks even when modelled from a cylinder.
Attached are 3 samples made in modo from an abandoned (unfinished?) project.

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

Have you though of rendering the model and the scenery separately and then compositing the renders?

TheBadger

penboack
I think that looks pretty darn good!

I probably wont use to much in the way of masks or displacement but for very very fine detail that is (if I understand you correctly). Just about everything will be real geometry because each model needs to stand up to very close inspection. At least in one version of each model anyway.

QuoteHave you though of rendering the model and the scenery separately and then compositing the renders?

Oh yes indeed! But Im not exactly sure on what I do and do not want to do separately yet. Im still mostly ideas and little certainty. :-\

One thing I would like to try, is to use a shader in maya to get the stone look (marble, or granite, or whatever stone I decide to use)
And then export that to Mudbox to sculpt over and paint onto. For the ruins that would mean that I would literally be adding layers of detail over time in somewhat a similar way as the building would have aged and crumbled linearly. I think it may prove an effective way to work on the sculpted variations.
It has been eaten.