Possible to increase randomization of only one aspect of a population?

Started by TheBadger, December 28, 2013, 12:43:04 PM

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TheBadger

Hello,

In T3, is it possible to tell Terragen to increase the randomization of one aspect with-in a population?

For example, say that you have a population where the instances are populating with min size of 1, and a max size of 3. Is it possible to tell terragen that you want more instances of a size of 2, and by a certain %, than of size 1 or 3?

Currently I have a population of fake stones. And after playing with seed I continue to get many more instances of larger stones then of small or anything in the middle. But what I want is fewer of the largest and smallest, and more of the middle sizes.

Now I realize that I could have three populations, but this means 3 node trees, and three populations to populate. That would make my total node tree much more dense and complex. I worry that if I put this project away and then come back to it, I will spend lots of time relearning what I did.

Of course, adding the extra populations is the clearest simplest thing I can do right now. But the idea of the added control is a nice one.

I am in T2, but I want to know if this is possible in T3. Or even if there is a way to do it in T2

Thanks.
It has been eaten.

yossam

Matt had a post about this a while back..............said that it might be something that could be added later in TG3.........................if my memory doesn't fail me.  :)


TheBadger

It has been eaten.


TheBadger

[attach=2]
It has been eaten.

Oshyan

Just to be clear for anyone else who reads this and doesn't understand (perhaps much later), Fake Stones are *not* objects and do not "populate". The Fake Stones shader is a *displacement* shader. So Badger, are you in fact populating something, and if so then what, the Rock object? Or are you using Fake Stones, in which case the answer to your question would be entirely different.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

I dont know anymore. i'm going to bed.

Ok oK, I see I have been talking about the rock object/population in all these threads, not stones. THough really, as far as I knew a rock and stone were two ways of saying the same thing.

I in all this time, never made use of a terragen stone or rock, until now. And I started not by creating one, but by adapting a clip file. So I never had experience with the difference.

I read a lot, but until you really need and do, reading is more of a pass time.

A stupid mistake on my part, but there it is.
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Oshyan

Sure, I understand, they seem like interchangeable terms. But the thing is there are inevitably going to be *similarly* named things in any program.  Or things that do similar things or look similar, but *are* different (a good example in Terragen is a sphere and a planet). Sometimes the differences really are so subtle that they require in-depth understanding, and missing that sort of thing is an unfortunate but inevitable part of the process of getting better at a particular application, but sometimes you are simply trying to move too quickly, and make too many assumptions.

In this case I think it's a useful learning moment: look carefully at the color coding of your nodes, it has important meaning. Gray nodes are Object nodes, and the Rock is an Object. Red nodes are Shader nodes, the Fake Stones is a Shader. They work completely differently in the scene. They are also used in different parts of the node network. These are differences that I think you would have noticed if you'd looked a bit closer, but I imagine you were more focused on trying to figure out how to use the clip file you'd gotten. The thing is that this kind of basic information that is communicated through the software is a very useful *part* of figuring out how to use something. Take the time to see the info that the system is communicating to you and it will at the least let you know how to ask the right questions, if not tell you the answers in itself.

I hope all this doesn't sound patronizing. We all overlook simple things sometimes, and the answer is usually just to slow down, look carefully, and act with deliberation and intention. We want to help you when you have problems, but it makes things harder when you aren't able to ask the right question.

Now, in answer to your original question, you can change some Population parameters on a per-axis basis, like object spacing and spacing variation. Scale doesn't work this way, but it should be a relatively random distribution of sizes within the range you specify. If it doesn't appear to be so, it's likely an issue of perception, i.e. larger stones are more obvious and seem more prevalent because smaller ones make less visual impact. It *could* also be a bug of some kind, or a "random" distribution that isn't sufficiently random. But I would sooner suspect simple perception bias, which is common.

In any case I'm not sure use of a Rock population is best for your needs (not yet sure what your needs really are though). If all you really want to do is figure out how to use this clip file, then that's fine, but if you have an end goal in mind perhaps you could describe that or provide examples. In many cases Fake Stones are an easier, faster way to achieve a good "rocky" result.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

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TheBadger

And again. The question was about forcing a % of the randomization to favor one size over another in a population, in the context of smallest to greatest.

I understand that "scale does not work this way". I was asking how to make it work that way.
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Oshyan

There is currently no way to make it work that way, as far as I'm aware. You would want to use multiple populations if you wanted to "bias" the scaling in particular ways, i.e. one population with lower density of large Rocks, a 2nd population with medium or higher density with mid-sized Rocks, and perhaps a 3rd population with high density and small Rocks. While this is a more complex way to go, it also gives you maximum control, and you can easily mask all 3 similarly if you're trying to confine them to a particular area, or low angle slopes, low or high altitudes, etc. Just plug the same Mask shader into all of them.

In the future we do intend to add some kind of "grouping" functionality which should address some of these issues and make it easier to work with multiple related populations. But having multiple populations will likely still be necessary. In fact the only way I can think of to achieve what you want in a single population without having very specific (and therefore limited) controls for scale (i.e. 3 or 4 sliders for biasing frequency of each scale through the range) would be to allow inputting a curve into the Scale setting. That's something we are considering for a ways in the future, it would be extremely powerful, but would also take a lot of work to implement.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

Quoteit would be extremely powerful, but would also take a lot of work to implement.
Sounds like it!!

thank you Oshyan. I appreciate the in-depth answer. So for now at least I will do the multiple pops.
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Dune

Theoretically, you could lead one pop through a series of surface shaders, masked by something, and add the same stones on top of eachother with a transform shader between, so you can control increased/decreased size by the mask you use. But I think it's just as much work and nodes to just have 3 pops.