Do you aprove of Big Game Hunting?

Started by cyphyr, May 25, 2014, 02:52:10 PM

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Do you aprove of Big Game Hunting?

Yes.
1 (6.7%)
No.
13 (86.7%)
None of my business.
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 15

cyphyr

Just a friendly reminder: I WILL LOCK THIS THREAD IF IT BECOMES UNCIVIL. :)

I have recently been faced with a difficult choice. My employer (once a year voluntary charity work) has decided to also employ a Big Game Hunter (headline act at a festival). I will go into more details depending on the results of this poll.
I'd like to gauge the opinion of the community as I have on other communities I have interactions with.

I realise this can be a contentious issue so please keep it civil.

More info here on my Facebook page

Thankyou for reading and taking part in the poll.
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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archonforest

I tried to answer the question but... :o
What is this Big Game Hunting? exactly?
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cyphyr

Killing large animals for their trophy heads.

It is NOT planed hunting conducted by professionals for population control.

Lions and elephants in Africa for example, buffalo and bears in the states for example.
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yossam

Do you have a link for your facebook page? Searched and couldn't find it. :(

archonforest

Quote from: cyphyr on May 25, 2014, 03:26:12 PM
Killing large animals for their trophy heads.

Thx Yossam :)
In this case I wote NO!
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cyphyr

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TheBadger

#6
really depends. I am for hunting in general though.
It has been eaten.

cyphyr

#7
Can you give your reasons ?
I am specifically NOT talking about wildlife management, controlled professional culling. There are good reasons for this.
I am specifically talking about so called "sport" hunting.
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AP

Hunting for sport seems cruel and sick. Hunting for food is another matter and if I am starving and need to eat I will hunt to survive. Should there be laws against it? I do not think Government should dictate those laws. I am sure issues like this could be solved without the use of force on a local level. If enough people disapprove of such a thing locally, then they can voluntarily get together to stand against those who are choosing to hunt for sport. Other then that, we can not stop everyone from doing what they want in an imperfect world. I have to wonder what drives these type of people to commit to such actions to begin with? Are they capable of finding something else to do? Do they get some thrill out of killing? Are they proud of killing and hanging a trophy of an animal head?

AP

Also, I think and correct me if I am wrong Ted Nugent only hunts for food sustainability and not for sport.

TheBadger

QuoteI am specifically NOT talking about wildlife management, controlled professional culling. There are good reasons for this.
You cannot separate these things though. and anyway I was previously talking about food. But I will expand since you asked. Please bear with me...

Where I live some people hunt for food because thats how they get a large part of their meat. Some do it because they have to, but most do it because they prefer it (among those who hunt I mean). I just want to give you some context so you will understand better my position.

In the state I live people come from all over the world, pay/spend lots of money to hunt and fish the lands here. It is a HUGE source of revenue for my state. The money funds our state parks, and helps to finance preservation projects. The money sustains many many livelihoods in many different ways.

In my state and I think several others particularly, but in most of the country to some degree, hunting is a human right.
Where I live it is a means of teaching young people about land management, liberty, gun safty, and even various spirtual perspectives depending on the people and their own traditions. And of course clean natural food!
Hunting fishing and farming are, almost if not equal, to God Country and Family here for just about everyone north of the state capital.

Where I live even vegans and peta tread very lightly on this subject.

Now I realize you wanted to narrow your topic and not talk about some of the things that I mentioned. But where I live they are inseparable. Just as I imagine they must be in places where you can hunt a lion or some other "exotic" animal.

I am sure that there are a number of places in the world where hunting trophy animals (anything that is hunted for reasons other than food) are the primary sources of income for large amounts of people. Big game hunting is not cheap! Nor should it be. And when properly managed as a natural resource I am for hunting for trophy for the sake of the people who depend on the resources of the lands and animals in question. We can hunt Bear here, we also have wolf and cougars (but we cant hunt the last two yet). It is very very hard to get a bear tag, and not cheap.

Now let me go just a little deeper please.
You have suggested a moral dilemma. lets assume that there can be such a thing as morality and right and wrong. If the lives of people (not just quality, but the very lives) depend on trophy hunting as means of survival (income and such), then how can you in your developed secure life in the UK pass judgment? How can you say that you won't associate with a charity group because they do not condemn something you have no right to judge your self? I mean, you don't have to, so how can you understand the need? I am not just talking about understanding a intellectual idea or question. Im talking about watching your family starve, what that must feel like. OR here, having to take handouts when you could just hunt for your dinner (as people here do, regardless of it they have to).

Now for me personally, I more than likely would never hunt an animal like in your scenario. I don't need to and I don't want to. But I see no difference between a 12 point buck (stag) and a lion. Except that the deer would be tasty and the lion would only make for a really nice rug. Otherwise, its pretty much the same thing.
I say this because you proposed the moral perspective in the first place. You see, if there is such a thing as morality and right and wrong, then it must be a question of degrees. (a word I much prefer to color schemes like "grey area"). Because however majestic an animal may be, or however rare, there is not one that I would not kill to save my son. So how can I hate another man (in say Africa for example) for helping someone else to kill a animal, so he can feed his family by participating. And how can he do that if people don't want the trophy? That hunt may be all he knows or has to trade/sell... and in many places being a hunting guide is not just good work, its the only work.

All animals must be managed just as any other resource. Because there is no such thing as a sacred animal, to me. And there is no way to separate out the idea of resource control from the hunting of any animal be it for food or sport. You want to remove from the conversation fundamental aspects of the subject so that you can have your moral perspective. But I think that is impossible.

Again, where I live hunting is regarded as a human right. The right to provide by ones own means, to hunt fish and farm any lands that you have access to. So from my own experience, and from my observations of the world around me here, its very hard to understand your problem. Unless you are trying to say that killing a giraffe is worse than killing a... duck, deer, fox? If its different, its only because you want it to be, not because it is *in my opinion*.

One day there may be no need for this kind of industry (sport hunting) But that time is not yet. And anyway, I don't see the problem if its managed well. I will never except that animals are equal to man, or that animals should be protected in the same way. So even though I would never do it (because I don't like it either) I would not try to stop it. I sure would not stop participating in a charity I believed in because someone else was participating who disagreed with me on a different topic.

But you are keeping some facts from the conversation so far. So whatever else there is, may create some circumstance where I would say something different. But in general what I wrote is how I see it.

Hope this can somehow help you figure out what you will do.

Good topic! And an interesting way of bringing it up for conversation.

Cheers.
It has been eaten.

N-drju

NO is my only answer to the pool question.

Now, I believe that controlled hunting is a must at times, but since we are not killing machines (well, not all of us at least) then we should also be wary when we should and when we shouldn't hand out death. Hunting deals with life and death and with great power comes great responsibility. I think that, what I call, "controlled hunting" is the only way in which you can do it with little or no remorse. I mean, you DO kill.

Badger, you say that hunting is a way for some people to make ends meet, or yet again, for some to get prime quality food. Agreed. Now, you can call me racist but take this into consideration - African tribesmen and poachers kill, sometimes torture, animals because in their simplistic worldview they believe this is the way for them to feed their family. Well, fine! But for how long? If it is not, again, controlled hunting the animals that give this or other community income will be long gone before you can say "Ham and cheese". So my question then is - what next? See my point? It is not complicated to just decimate something that you can make living from.

I am especially enraged at two types of hunting:

- When people hunt in order to meet their sick ambitions and gain fifteen minutes of fame (check Melissa Bachman's bright smile)
- When people just get greedy (check seal murderers, banging helpless animals on the head with a sharp hook).

These two examples are a part of developed countries' mots famous (notorious, you might say) people who call themselves "hunters". Wonder whether Bachman or my boss are starving, or have malnourished families? Don't think so...
"This year - a factory of semiconductors. Next year - a factory of whole conductors!"

TheBadger

And where do you think the food you buy in the store comes from? Willy Wonka land, where animals grow on trees and then when their ripe fall down gently to the earth in burger form? If you eat meat you bought in the store I promise you that that animal suffered in every way worse than any food I have ever killed my self.

And whats the difference between a cute seal, and a cute calf? Have you ever even been close to either of them?
It has been eaten.

cyphyr

#13
Just a friendly reminder: I WILL LOCK THIS THREAD IF IT BECOMES UNCIVIL. ;D

Thanks for your input guys.
Obviously this is an emotive subject to many with stark differences on both sides of the argument.
The points you raise Badger are good but I would say that there is a big difference between wild animals and farmed food animals. In both cases neither would survive in the others environment. I'm sure you've seen the result of caging wild animals, it is unnatural for them and you can plainly see the torment in their actions. I  remember seeing a wolf pack in a reserve in Aviemore, Scotland, they had worn a deep furrow about the perimeter with their constant pacing back and forth looking for a way out.
Similarly if we were to release a cow or a sheep or a pig into the wild they would not last long, even with the lack of predictors nowadays, we have simply bread their wildness out of them. Cows for example would die very quickly if they are not milked regularly, sheep would overheat in the summer etc. Our farm animals bare little resemblance to their wild forebears and so a comparison is not especially valid in this case.

As regards our "right to hunt", because our ancestors did it, well two things there. Firstly I don't believe in the concept of "rights" in the first place. "Rights" are an entirely man made concept and these rights change from culture to culture, the only "right" that exists is the "right of might". If you're stronger enough to do something then you can go and do it, no one can stop you so you may as well say you have the "right" to do it. A pretty lame argument really. Secondly our ancestors lived and died in an entirely different world; it really was a choice of hunt or die. This is very much not the case now-a-days.  Very few people have to hunt to survive, that's what the farming industry is for. It is their choice to go and live in an environment that requires hunting to survive. They have imposed them selves of that wildness, not the other way around. Also there are very few such areas left anywhere in the world.

However this is all moot since I do make a distinction between Big Game Hunting and hunting for food and survival. In Big Game Hunting you are hunting for a prize, pitting your wits, skill and prowess against a formidable foe. Makes a great story but that's about it. It is not hunting for conservation where the weaker diseased members of a population are culled since these make poor prizes. It is not hunting for food to feed ones self.

As regards the revenue that hunting brings in, this is an entirely manufactured economy. For example the Kodiac Bear hunt issues 496 tags a year at roughly $16k each, about $8m. Tourism and bear viewing holidays bring a heck of a lot more.

I have considered learning to hunt myself so I am somewhat conflicted. Of course round here there are no large predators to hunt, the largest animals would be Red Deer and they are farmed anyway ... I might try my hand a rabbit and of course fishing.

By the way what state are you in?

Cheers all :)

Ps attached pic shows the sort of Prize hunting I am specifically talking about.
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N-drju

Gosh, that's an eerie image...

I'd yet like to comment on what Badger said. As far as your question is concerned - yes. As a teenager I spent months with various farm animals - cows, chicken, pigs, pigeons, additionally building affinity with baby ducks. The difference between them and seals, tigers, deer is that they are strong in numbers and actually I can't imagine a situation in which, say, pigs suddenly become endangered species. Think about it. This is the reason why I oppose the notion of "hunt for fun". Raising animals for food is exactly what I understand by necessary killing or to keep my previous thought "controlled hunting". This IS a question of survival. When you hunt an animal which is rare while you don't have to that's just a waste. Plain waste.

Let me return fire (nudge, nudge) with the Willy Wonka notion of yours. Don't you think that Big Game Hunters regard natural environment in just the way? That nature is a system which magically regenerates itself and deer and ducks pop out of the soil? I mean... come ON! :) People don't care about natural wonders. They think these will always be around no matter what they do with it.

Organized hunting that serves some purpose is fine by me, because this is the way human can put nature back on track to fix what he messed up. Hunting just for fun and selfies? Ye gods! ???
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