Tim's Vermeer

Started by TheBadger, September 06, 2014, 05:09:09 AM

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TheBadger

Hey,

Posted a preview of this film a ways back. Got to see it tonight. Its on itunes for 99 cents at the time of this post.
Its really very good! Just made me happy.

If you watch it, as you are watching it, consider the very last shot of Tim by the fire place... After all of that, that is what he does... And that just made me so happy. I don't even know why.

Cheers.
It has been eaten.

oysteroid

TheBadger,

I am surprised you didn't get any discussion on this. I saw Tim's Vermeer a few weeks back and found it very interesting. I was just thinking of posting something about it and did a search first and found your posts. I'd expect most of the sort of people who like Terragen to find some appeal in Tim's combination of interest in art and technical stuff. Besides, Tim is the man behind Lightwave and the Video Toaster, which I am sure many here are somewhat familiar with.

I do some painting with traditional media, primarily oils. And I've long been interested in the debate over how far tools should go and what constitutes "cheating". This documentary provides a lot of food for thought here.

So what do you think? Did your esteem for Vermeer as an artist diminish at all when you no doubt came to agree with Tim that he must have used an optical device like this?

TheBadger

lol Yeah, it was a good film.
We all talked about the film when the trailer came out. I probably should have posted this in that thread. But I got excited when I only had to pay 99 cents to see a good movie ;D

No, not diminished at all. He was even more impressive as a thinker than I had suspected from his paintings, which already had me thinking he was pretty smart. HE has long been my favorite "classic" painter, I said so in an art history class once and was asked why I thought that. I did not really have much of an answer then. But after the film I think I understand better why he works for me.

I knew about the Camera Obscura before the movie. But the movie shows what he (most likely) did, is much more impressive! thats not cheating! It took him much longer to paint his way, than a "normal" method.

I just love the part in the film when Tim shows the proof to the historian and the artist. I love the look in their faces. I love that Tim destroyed their pretentious notion of "genius". Made them have to face that genius does not make them special. That genius is terrestrial, and common in men. that it is not divine, they are not gods among men. That "primitives" where smarter than they are now even way back then.

But thats just my way of looking at it. 


It has been eaten.

oysteroid

Badger,

I tend to agree with you, though I feel a bit conflicted about it. If I were to trace a drawing from a projector or something of the sort, I would feel guilty, like I hadn't gotten a likeness by fair means or something. But really, that is kind of silly. I think it comes down to worrying what other people would think and the fact that non-artists have a certain inaccurate idea of what it is an artist does. They think it is something magical, like the gods touched you or something and you can just mysteriously do this thing that nobody else can do, the idea seemingly being that even the artist doesn't know how it is done, maybe that the artist is just a vehicle for something coming from God. Words like "talented", "gifted", "genius", "inspired", and so on all are evidence of this.

In reality, in at least some important respects, it always has been a very technical matter, and there is a method that can be taught. And how a likeness is captured is in fact comprehensible, even being somewhat of a science in many ways.

And at least as far as direct representational painting goes, even when not using optical devices to trace, the realists have long used very precise methods. The method taught at academic ateliers, for example, has long involved "sight size" drawing/painting, fixing your station point, or the location from which you make your observations, measuring with a brush handle, a knitting needle, or something of the sort, with the arm out straight at a repeatable distance, very carefully reproducing angles, distances, and so on, basically plotting all the important points and lines. Many have often even used plumb lines. And painters who don't obviously measure in a such a direct way are doing something similar mentally, still working out all of the spatial and color relationships like a surveyor.

But I think the art-appreciating public wants it to be something more magical than that. And when they buy a painting, they want to feel like they are participating in something otherworldly, something utterly mysterious, something that can never be codified or fully explained. Maybe unconsciously, they want to own a divine spark fallen from Heaven. And something like Tim's Vermeer, therefore, is deflating. Here is a guy who is what they might think of as a mere technician, a geek, who, using computers to help him reconstruct Vermeer's studio and an optical device to paint with, basically replicates what Vermeer did. He shows how the magic trick was done, removing all of the mystery, in fact forcefully demonstrating that it is not mysterious at all. With the aid of technology, Vermeer perhaps became a human camera, coldly recording the scene, no heart or soul necessary.

Still, in many artworks, I think there is evidence of something harder to pin down, and it often creeps in right where the work deviates from direct realism. Even in realist works, it is often to be found in those spirited and expressive flourishes of the artist's hand. But honestly, I don't see very much of that in Vermeer's work. I think that Vermeer might be a special case. Regardless, perhaps more important than exactly how the accurate drawing and color were achieved are the subject matter, the composition, the feeling conveyed by the overall picture that the artist arranged, and so on.

But then, would a well-shot photograph of the same scene be just as good? What makes a painting special? Is it just that it is hard to do and that it is labor intensive and these give an added perception of value? Or is there something more? And if so, just what is it?

PabloMack

#4
Quote from: oysteroid on February 18, 2015, 12:21:59 AMI tend to agree with you, though I feel a bit conflicted about it.... Or is there something more? And if so, just what is it?

I don't see a clear line dividing artists and art enthusiasts. I guess the dividing line is whether you get paid for it or not. One lady I knew was quite the art snob. Sometimes dealing in art is like poker because a lot of bluff can be going on. It reminds me of the story "The Emperor and his new clothes".

On the other hand, I knew another lady who I expected to be an art snob. She taught art and had years of experience as an interior decorator. After talking to her a while I found she was quite practical and my respect for her grew that day.

I can see where an artist's professional career can be rewarding and frustrating as your primary job is to please other people. You are fortunate when your tastes please others as well.

I think that artistry and craftsmanship are inter-related as the movie illustrates. As technology takes over the job of our craftsmanship (the arduous procedure of recording images as a camera would see them), it frees us to concentrate more on artistry (as in choice of subject matter, framing, lighting etc). A machine can't do those kinds of things for us. Art all boils down to what gives us aesthectic pleasure and we are not all the same in that regard.

fleetwood

It was a fascinating film. I've always been interested in the techniques of painting through the ages.
I see it this way, you have an image in your mind and you find a way to create it. Could be an ingenious technical device, it could be hiring helpers to do the work on some parts. Whatever the method, it is a success if you ended up with what you pictured in your mind.
One thing though, it does seem like Vermeer intended to keep his method to himself. Guess there have always been trade secrets and competitive advantage.

mhall

QuoteOne thing though, it does seem like Vermeer intended to keep his method to himself.

I haven't been able to watch the entire film, but I did watch an interview with Tim after it was released. At the time of the interview, he was working on some new research and theorized that there is a link from Leonardo, to Caravaggio, through some other painters to Vermeer. All were part of a particular guild and were not allowed to reveal guild secrets, so he's thinking this technique (or techniques like it) was known technique to guild painters, but the secret eventually died out with them. Which is kind of an interesting theory.

Link to the interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfsbSK0WPqU