Tone mapping spherical panoramas (VR)

Started by inkydigit, March 29, 2016, 07:48:20 PM

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inkydigit

Just wondering if anyone had any tips specific to tone mapping spherical panos, I can get some great looking images, until you view them in a viewer: ... The image seams are mismatched in tonality?
Is there a way to do this... Maybe some sort of vignette would help?
Any ideas or helpful info... I could not see anything gooogleing.
Cheers
J
:)

Oshyan

If you're using GI, you must use GI Caching to get seamless cube map faces. This is discussed more elsewhere in the VR threads.

- Oshyan

Dune

I think Jason is referring to outside tonemapping (PS), but I understood that is not allowed anyway, is it? I think to make a spherical movie out of the (winning) files, they (the tgd's) should be as good as possible without outside manipulation. I really don't know if you can change values outside without messing up consistency between frames.

inkydigit

Hi Oshyan and Ulco,
thanks for commenting... ok, I thought local tone mapping was not allowed, implying that non-selective tone mapping is ok?
maybe I have misunderstood...
if so, then, just in general terms, for future reference even...
I have HDR efex pro from the NIK collection, as I stated, it does a great job at 'juicing' your image up, but the edges then do not match?
cheers
Jason
oh, I am using 'TG3 spherical camera'

TheBadger

#4
hmmm, I thought that was what you were asking too, but I also thought tonemapping was allowed, since that is basically the same as standard photo correction these days.
otherwise why save in anything other than tiff? Maybe since PS will render, they don't want to have to try to figure out how to style the render to match the entry?

* also, if they do animate the winners at some point, than they would have to batch edit the tonemapping by the number of frames (90fps) and I know that is another level of hell.

Ha, now because of this rule, I am really convinced that they will animate the winner.
It has been eaten.

inkydigit

Ok...
It's more complicated than I initially thought...
Global/Local tonemapping are methods used by the HDR software:
QuoteLocal vs. Global tonemapping? What are the differences and why should I care?
Global tonemapping applies the same set of color changes, compression, etc equally across the image. This method is generally faster and works often with HDRs that to not have an extremely dynamic range within the image.

Local tonemappers initially apply a global tonemapping algorithm to the file, but then it analyzes the differences (delta) and if it notices that there are still areas of extreme difference in values, it will then go to each of those local (smaller) areas and further reduce/compress the tonal values within an increasingly smaller area until it reaches a "normal" value of differences. Local tonemappers are generally slower, but offer more ability to really tweak difficult or very high contrast HDRI images.

Some programs like Photoshop for example, allow you to manually tonemap with a custom curve function. This can be acceptable for an advanced user, but is not very user friendly to artists that are new to HDRi and tonemapping.

Some freeware and shareware tonemappers offer 2 or 3 methods for tonemapping. Other programs like Photomatix Pro offer many more choices than that.
From hdrlabs.com
I will investigate HDR efex pro in more detail...
I will let you know more...
J
:)

TheBadger

#6
In terms of just knowing to do it on your own. Its really much easier to load a TG exr and just go through all the sliders. In the case of photomatix, you can switch back and forth between global and local at any time. The differences are immediately visible.
Really would not get hung up on the technical details about how one mode works over the other. It really will mostly be esthetic. you can demo photomatix if you want. Its really easy and clear, and you see the result as soon as you click or move a slider.

What soft are you playing with? HDR efex pro? don't know it, is it nice?

here is a screen grab of the UI of matrix (please post one of your soft as I am very interested). global and local are the "method" in the upper left area there are now more than two methods, on the right is a column of presets that can be fun. But they are presets, so... (ignore the image, its just loaded so I could get the UI window up)
[attach=1]

QuoteJust wondering if anyone had any tips specific to tone mapping spherical panos
I realize you are asking only about spherical, but for a still there is not any difference that I yet know of....

ITs super easy. Really the harder part is if you are shooting bracketed photos with a real camera. just using a TG exr is so easy. I always save a tiff and and exr, than process the exr in the different methods/modes. Then take all the images into photoshop as layers and work on them again in the traditional way. This way I always can use the "photo real" and the enhanced, together and blend in and out what needs it. So the TG tiff render, and than two tone mapped images, on pho real by dynamic and one enhanced (sometime several enhanced) depending on if I get several looks that would blend well.

Here is the problem I find with animation, and that will likely be even more of a problem with vr animation. When batch pricing 30fps and if there is a slight to great change in lighting from one second to the next, than all of your settings are going to be out of whack (slider settings) dose not mater if you tone local or global. And that is with the camera seeing in one direction only.

With spherical, the camera is seeing in every direction at one time. So it will either batch process better or be so bad it can't be done at all. Don't know yet.

So then image editors won't work on a per frame basis. I think that the only way to get a good result is the compositing method.

Here is one of the first TG renders I did back in 2009, and then later animated and batch processed.
https://vimeo.com/38144885
its a test of batch processing tone mapped images from TG and photomatix. I did a bunch of this stuff but this is the only thing I ever shared. :-\ I normally just throw it away after I get an answer for my self.

Anyway, the only reason that you don't see a shit load of issues, is because the camera is moving only forward, and the light is basically flat over all. (The look of it is just some pointless style choices when editing and mapping) But I also know from other tests that when you have complex lighting like with a storm or something, and the camera or the scene is changing, it is nearly to impossible batch process, because all your settings will stop making sense from one second to the next.

The reason I say all that^^ is because in a spherical render the camera is looking in every direction at one time, and the scene may be changing in an animation, so its got to be really complex to pull of. I think you can't use an image editor like PS or matix for video images and animation images. You have to composite or use a video HDRI editor.

Quotebut the edges then do not match

The images must be put together before you maps them. If they are already together, than there should be no seams and no difference between all the images. If there are, than this is a result of the software you used not doing its job right. For example, in auto pano pro, when you join as many as 10000 images together the software detects the differences between all the images and corrects to one new image. I just know that from experience. you should with good soft, be able to take a hundred images from different cameras and join them to one image without any issues.

But this is all moot, since when PS renders your winning entry, they won't be able to reproduce the esthetic you found. Since they will have to know the soft you use and all of the settings.

lol,
just spewing info.  ;D
It has been eaten.

Dune

In other words, don't rely on tonemapping to improve quality for an entry. Keep it TG, I'd say.

inkydigit

Hi there Michael and Ulco,
Yeah HDR Efex pro https://www.google.com/nikcollection/ is pretty awesome, most of the modules load as plugins for Affinity too, the others can be run as standalone apps, in fact all can be run in standalone mode.
It's a nice suite of tools, was 149 bucks, now free!
It looks most likely that I am not doing it correctly, but as always, I dive in and have a rummage under the bonnet first, before rtfm! ;)
I would think that with a spherical image, edges would match up perfectly, so I will check the guidance notes!
Still... Not necessary for the VR contest, but for getting the best tonal dynamics from your TG spherical camera output... Does 16bit tiff equal exr?
Gonna have to check that too... from openexr:
QuoteOriginal OpenEXR Image ... 16-bit integer-based formats typically represent color component values from 0 ("black") to 1 ... Conversely, 32-bit floating-point TIFF is often overkill for visual effects
A can of worms has been opened... More reading is required!
Cheers
Jason
:)



inkydigit

update:
I found a work around...
which will probably work perfectly, when I also use the glitch fix mentioned by BigBen: http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,17327.msg168018.html#msg168018
basically I created a document that was 3 times the width of my original render, then pasted 3 versions of the spherical camera render alongside each other, flattened image, exported to HDR efex pro 2 and ran a prelim test... tonality at the edges of the middle image seemed to be  almost seamless!
So I cropped the central image out and discarded the other two versions, opened up in fsp viewer and it looked ok... just the 'pixel width glitch' thingy to deal with, which makes me think that maybe the 'pixel width row' may be throwing a spanner in the works of HDR efex?
I will render a scene 2 pixels extra say 2402x1200... then remove the extra row of pixels from each side of the image as BB suggested... we shall see what happens then?
:)
J

TheBadger

lol, sorry, still remain worried about the problems ahead rather than the ones in front of me.
It has been eaten.

inkydigit

Quote from: TheBadger on March 31, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
lol, sorry, still remain worried about the problems ahead rather than the ones in front of me.
me too, got sidetracked somewhat!
:)
J

Oshyan

In that case (I misunderstood your original question), you'll need to use a workaround like you did unless you find an HDR app that has a spherical-aware mode. With VR becoming big this will probably happen soon, but I'm not aware of one yet.

As for the contest, no local tonemapping (HDR processing) please. :)

- Oshyan

inkydigit

That's ok, it is what I thought, thanks Oshyan...  For the contest, I will leave any post processing to a minimum if needed at all!
Back to rendering,
Cheers
Jason