The price of Macs...bonkers

[reck]

At work one of my jobs is to generate computer quotes for both Mac and PC's. A misconception that some Mac buyers seem to have is that the Macs are more expensive due to them having higher quality components and they seem quite surprised to hear that the manufacturers that make the CPU's, GPU's and HD's are the same for both.

The price difference can be several hundred pounds so we see people buy Macs for more money but are actually getting a lower powered system than the people buying PC's. On top of the costs of the actual Mac a lot of the Mac users then have to purchase something like VMware Fusion and a Windows licence to run a copy of Windows on their Mac's because some of the software is PC only. When I walk into an office where someone is using an iMac which is running a PC application in a virtual copy of Windows running on OSX I do wonder why they paid all the extra money to have an experience like that when a guy next to them is running the application straight from a Windows 10 PC that runs faster and costed them less money.

The argument sometimes is that they prefer OSX over Windows. Yes the software that they mostly use to open applications and occasionally use to copy and move files. 90% of the time is spent within the applications which is practically the same on both. Is it really worth all that extra money to click Excel on the Mac Taskbar to open it as opposed to clicking Excel on the Windows taskbar?

Anyway I've just seen the prices for the new Macbook Pro laptops here in the UK and I am completely gob-smacked at the cost. Yes Apple products have always been more but the prices of the new Macbooks is just crazy, £1,749 for the 13" and £2,349 for the 15". To make matters worse Apple have increased the prices across the board and raised prices on all their existing products as well.

Having to pay extra hundreds of pounds on top of already paying hundreds of pounds over a similar PC is going to make justifying buying a Mac over a PC very difficult going forward.

What's everyone else's thoughts on Macs and the associated costs and perceived benefits of buying them? Are Apple just playing to the lack of understanding of some Mac owners e.g. they  have better components, Mac's don't get malware etc.

[Dune]

I never actually understood why people would buy a Mac. Indeed, more expensive, and less (easily available) software for it. Better protection on the internet, is what I heard, and easier for graphical design, but I don't have any problems with PC, and also heard from some publishers they don't need Mac at all. My 2 cents 

[N-drju]

Well said reck. Well said.

At first I used TG on Mac computer. This has been a world of pain and a bottomless sea of frustration for me. Nothing worked the way I expected and if it did it was slow. SLOW! And they claim that everything works faster on Macs. What kind of idiot keeps repeating this?

I will never buy Mac again. As to playing the lack of understanding - I wouldn't be surprised. Apple does not have a very clean history when it comes to morality. Just enter "Steve Jobs" in Wikipedia. Fraudulent advertising is probably something they could pull off... and many times.

[Kadri]

http://www.designtalkboard.com/design-articles/desktoppublishing.php

I remember those years. We walked in a printing house in the early 90's and when they heard that we
used PC's i still remember the disdain i saw in their faces.
It might be true maybe that Apple was better from some aspects in the 80's and 90's .
But now for me it is just image mostly.

The Os might be better-easier to use maybe. They use standard and very specific hardware and design only around it.
The hardware Windows have to use is so much more diverse i think Windows is actually very good when you think about it.

I always bought my own hardware and mostly assembled my own computers.
Except for the ridiculous priced Mac's the others were mostly just "good looking" computers.

[archonforest]

The main different here is that Apple has a way better Marketing section than the rest. And until they do have this then they will sell as there are millions out there who just want one to show off or just simply have no clue that a PC can do the same for way less money. I used to typeset with a MAC as the company bought it but it wasn't faster than a PC with the same specs. In fact it only give me font problems.
Apple products have great design but it still not justify the prices.

[zaxxon]

This argument has been around for a long time. It used to be as fraught with contention as discussing Politics or Religion. Even back in the Amiga days (dating myself), many of us thought that both the Amiga and the Atari platforms were superior. Sayings like: "MacIntosh, almost like a computer, only slower" or "A Mac is kind of like your Father's car; looks great, but you can't do much with it". Though I had serious Mac envy when Bryce was only available on that platform. The Apple guys always pretended that they developed "Windows, Icon, Menu, Pointer" (developed and given into Public Domain by Zerox Parc) and looked down their noses at DOS on the PC, but a lot us had a 'WIMP' OS on the Amiga and didn't care about DOS anyway. Today, as you all are pointing out, it's a different story. The comparative price vs. performance equation is not even close. Apple as a Company has purchased and ruined several fine software applications. And sadly for the most part the Apple computer owners I know personally are amongst the least knowledgeable users (sorry!). But, my Daughter who is a professional Photo Stylist in San Francisco insists that if she didn't use a Mac her peers would disown her and damage her work potential. So ironically the Mac has become the "PC" tool in some endeavors.

[ajcgi]

Apple prices supposedly shot up recently in the UK due to the pound falling dramatically against the dollar.
That aside, they are pricey. Personally I consider it horses for courses in terms of OS and use, until considering 3D software where the Mac support gets a bit wobbly. I rarely use my Mac for 3D, find TG works fine in Bootcamp if I want the windows TG experience for erosion etc. I prefer the windows version of TG if I'm honest. Those little drop down menus in the Mac version instead of tabs on windows really bug me.

Day to day, non-3D usage I like Mac OS and at the time I was speccing up my iMac, the value for money was pretty good for a machine with a decent 5k screen. I bought it for amateur photographic needs so something like an Eizo screen felt like overkill. The equivalent PC and monitor combo wasn't far off and again, at the time, space was very much of an issue as I was renting a tiny room in a London house. I specced it up knowing I'd have it a few years and it wouldn't be upgradable like a PC. My last PC was well over £2000 but lasted 6 years.

Now with my intention to work outside of London more I may work from home a bit in which case rendering using something like RedShift would be a temptation, necessitating a PC again.

If I buy a PC, I would probably get someone else to build it as the whole custom gear thing is something I got bored of researching and keeping on top of prior to a purchase. Is windows 10 better than 8? Something about it seemed like it wanted to be 2 OSs at the same time. That really put me off Windows a long time.

[reck]

Oh i'm sure the increase is down to the falling pound (I won't mention the B word) but Apple have also increased prices elsewhere as well, just not by the same amount. Whatever the reason the price is the price and as things currently stand, with such a price difference, I think it's hard to justify it with such a premium.

I fully expect Dell and the other PC vendors to increase prices as well over the next few months and then maybe everything will be expensive, not just the Apple stuff 

Is windows 10 better than 8? Something about it seemed like it wanted to be 2 OSs at the same time. That really put me off Windows a long time.

I would say a big yes. Windows Vista and 8 were mis-steps in my opinion and I completely agree about the two OS thing with Windows 8. Windows 10 is a lot better in my opinion, and although there are still the "metro" apps around the OS doesn't keep switching between the two types of OS like it did in Windows 8 which was very jarring.

Windows 7 and 10 are both very solid OS's imo

[ajcgi]

I know where I am with 7. I had that from beta release onwards. I still have a windows laptop and it is happy as Larry running 7.
The Metro interface and even just the semi-metro layout of modern versions of MS programs really seem unintuitive to me. He said, running Maya and Nuke. Ha!
Prices will rise a little thanks to inflation here soon for sure. BBC chose to mention the cost of Marmite recently on their news bulletin. Thousand being displaced in Iraq, shot by oppressive pricks, but f**k me isn't Marmite suddenly expensive this week?

[otakar]

On the advice of my dear brother my mom got herself a MacBook after her Windows box (likely just the drive) went bad. I am a technology person - it's my job, but could not get around working that beast at all. A simple thing like organizing a picture library and simple file manipulation is completely foreign if you have been on Windows for the last 20 years. And it IS expensive as hell. You can't replace or upgrade hardware components, it's a closed system. Can't connect a standard monitor, even a conversion cable would not do the job. Complete frustration. After a couple of years she is still unable to do basic things she learned and mastered on Windows. Would have to attend expensive classes, which she cannot find motivation for. I used to be able to bridge the distance and help her troubleshoot on Windows using TeamViewer, but no longer. Worst idea in a long time!

Never owned an Apple product and never will!

[René]

I am an Apple user for almost 30 years, and while there were times when I wanted to throw the Mac through the window I am generally very satisfied, at least since OS X. Apple's core business is making money, no matter what they say.
Unfortunately they are no longer interested in making desktop computers and OS X doesn't run natively on PCs, because if it did I would by one. Hell I would buy three PCs!


http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-touch-bar-vs-microsoft-surface-studio-2016-10?international=true&r=US&IR=T

[reck]

Unfortunately they are no longer interested in making desktop computers and OS X doesn't run natively on PCs, because if it did I would by one. Hell I would buy three PCs!


http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-touch-bar-vs-microsoft-surface-studio-2016-10?international=true&r=US&IR=T

I think that's a good point René. It's been clear for a while that their focus is on the iOS devices but this makes perfect sense from a business point of view. The vast majority of their income comes from the iphone and up until recently where sales have slowed down, ipad was making good money as well. I believe the Mac side is very small compared to iOS so it's not surprising the Macs are a secondary product.

[plugsnpixels]

As a long time (since 1992) Mac user, I too am coming to the sad realization that Apple's pretty toys are over-priced and underpowered. I work in higher ed IT and thankfully I have access to all sorts of Macs (except Mac Pros, though that will be changing soon as I take on other responsibilities). They're great to manage and use, so long as you're not paying for them yourself...

I bought my first Mac in 1997 (PowerMac 7300 with Sony monitor, 32 megs of RAM and Zip drive) for a couple thousand-! The only other Mac I ever bought was a used G4 on eBay (and a palette of beige G3s from the university for $170 when they were doing eBay sales a decade ago; these when refurbished/resold paid for the G4).

I am writing this from a 2013 11" i7 1.7GHz MacBook Air which I recently got for FREE from a colleague who had some sort of incident involving a cat and a large drink... She was going to take it to electronic waste recycling and asked if I wanted it (oh yes please!). The washed out screen is mostly useless but when attached to a monitor, works perfectly fine (and is somehow clean inside). $12 for an ethernet/USB 3 adapter (I already have a Thunderbolt adapter for a monitor from another laptop) and I was in business with a great home setup that can even handle TG renders sufficiently.

My point with this story is, if you want a Mac, try and find a deal on a recent model used one – do not buy a new one. Tossing a SSD in an older Mac will give it a major performance boost.

Another obvious option is to build your own computer. In the office I have a 2011 i7-2600 3.4GHz 8-core Hackintosh build (I call it The Beast) in a G5 case which I bought a year ago from another colleague for $100 plus some trade items (a working G5 and some 35mm lenses). He had it running Snow Leopard which I had no use for; after some hard work and much reading of the TonyMac86 forum I got it running El Capitan reliably, and added additional hard drives for Windows 10 and elementary OS Linux and bumped the RAM to 16 gigs. It's Apple-branded hardware, so it's cool ;-).

Compared to Apple's retail prices, you can build a similarly-spec'd (but uglier) system for half the price.

In the photo you can see the Hack and Terragen 4 on the large TV monitor (also given to me!); El Cap does not currently allow decent resolution with the video card but in Windows and Linux it's perfectly fine, plus I can use the other Apple DVI monitor with those OS's as well (though not OS X). I was originally using TG under Windows but it was crashing (becoming unresponsive after editing some parameters) so I switched to OS X where I've had no problems other than having to drag the app side to side to see the whole GUI.

This Hack is the most powerful computer I own despite being it 5 years old (twice the processor speed of the Air) and is perfect for Terragen renders. The one attached is from New World Digital Art's Wild_Clouds_Pack>Tumultuous_Skies_Full_Project with customizations and took 2 hours to render today (at its original larger size). I have a slightly different vertical version of the scene ready for my upcoming ezine TG promo.

Given that Apple is making more money off the iToys, maybe they can loosen up and let macOS run on generic hardware without all the grief. After all, the more people running iTunes and the App Store, the better!

[N-drju]

Looks rather like a dystopian laboratory plugsnpixels than a computer desk. Putting cats & drinks aside, I really think this brand is just not reliable and I don't see a reason for Apple computers to be that overpriced.

[plugsnpixels]

Sure is ugly, yes! I usually have the side panel on but took it off for the pic.

Apple hardware is reliable (I manage several higher-ed computer labs with very few hardware or OS problems), but yes, overpriced. Which again is why I have ugly and cat-affected computers ;-)