Any clue why a black render?

Started by bobbystahr, December 02, 2016, 12:30:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

bobbystahr

when the 3D RTP shows a fine scene....playing around with Matt's ancient Mackerel Sky attempt with a Ver 3 cloud replacement.
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

fleetwood

First thing I see is that a Perlin 3d fractal is being set up in blue nodes but then it is not connected to anything. I suspect the intent was to merge the Perlin 3d pattern with the Billows pattern, but instead of that, a Get Position is being sent directly to the merge. This will not give a pretty result but generate a funny looking square quarter division, not what is wanted, I don't think. I suggest connecting the perlin to one side of the merge and the billows to the other side and go from there.

RECEIVE SHADOWS IS CHECKED IN THE ATMOSPHERE QUALITY AND ALSO IN THE CLOUD QUALITY.  No reason to do that in this render it will just slow things down "bigly".  :)

Oshyan

The main common reason that a render would turn out differently than the preview is if you have moved the camera in the preview but not "Set"/Copied it to the actual current camera position. That does not appear to be the case from the TGD. I think there is something going on in what you're doing to create those cloud shapes. The Ray-Traced Preview renders in a different way than the main preview, and if you let the main preview refine to detail 20, it too goes black. The regular render process works more like the main preview than RTP, so this makes sense. The bottom line is there's something weird in your cloud setup (very extreme values coming out of that setup, I would guess). If you connect just a regular density shader to that same cloud layer it renders fine in both preview and final render. Also note that if you just connect the Perlin 3D scalar to the *input* of the Merge Shader 02, you suddenly get normal looking (and cool-shaped) clouds that render tine. Maybe that was more what you are after?

On another note, I think maybe we are seeing why you are getting such huge render times even on your new box: you have some very high and unnecessary atmosphere settings which are really making render times very, very slow. *Especially* when you're experimenting with new and unusual ways of shaping clouds, as you seem to obviously be doing here. I would first recommend to disable "Receive Shadows" from both cloud and atmosphere, as Fleetwood suggested. Neither setting in this scene will have any positive or noticeable effect, but both will make render times much higher. You may be feeling like enabling all of this now that you have a faster machine, but that is just going to take away any performance benefit you would have scene, and as I mentioned in many cases you will have no benefit for it either. Receive Shadows should be enabled cautiously in any scene, and you should really know why you are enabling it and where you expect these shadows to be cast into your clouds/atmosphere from.

The other performance issue is the high atmosphere samples. Terragen 4 has Defer Atmosphere enabled by default, which means in general you want to use *much* lower numbers of samples for your atmosphere than if you were rendering without Defer. In this case 64 atmosphere samples is just crazy. 16 should be fine, even with AA2. If you use higher AA, you should definitely not use any more than 16 atmo samples, unless you have a heavily shadowed atmosphere and there is obvious noise in its darker areas.

- Oshyan

bobbystahr

Quote from: Oshyan on December 02, 2016, 04:50:47 PM
. Also note that if you just connect the Perlin 3D scalar to the *input* of the Merge Shader 02, you suddenly get normal looking (and cool-shaped) clouds that render tine. Maybe that was more what you are after?

Exactly my friend...I had it working previously and that is the ticket. Thanks

On another note, I think maybe we are seeing why you are getting such huge render times even on your new box: you have some very high and unnecessary atmosphere settings which are really making render times very, very slow. *Especially* when you're experimenting with new and unusual ways of shaping clouds, as you seem to obviously be doing here. I would first recommend to disable "Receive Shadows" from both cloud and atmosphere, as Fleetwood suggested. Neither setting in this scene will have any positive or noticeable effect, but both will make render times much higher. You may be feeling like enabling all of this now that you have a faster machine, but that is just going to take away any performance benefit you would have scene, and as I mentioned in many cases you will have no benefit for it either. Receive Shadows should be enabled cautiously in any scene, and you should really know why you are enabling it and where you expect these shadows to be cast into your clouds/atmosphere from.

This actually, when properly configured, renders fairly fast, it was just my latest creek render...

The other performance issue is the high atmosphere samples. Terragen 4 has Defer Atmosphere enabled by default, which means in general you want to use *much* lower numbers of samples for your atmosphere than if you were rendering without Defer. In this case 64 atmosphere samples is just crazy. 16 should be fine, even with AA2. If you use higher AA, you should definitely not use any more than 16 atmo samples, unless you have a heavily shadowed atmosphere and there is obvious noise in its darker areas.

Yeah, I finally checked that, bear in mind I'm tweaking an ancient Matt share and have no idea what's happening till I break something.

- Oshyan
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

Oshyan

It may render "fairly fast", but you're getting no benefit in this scene from Receive Shadows in atmo or cloud, so the render times are *longer than necessary*. Even if you're OK with the times as they are, surely you'd be happier if was, say, a couple minutes faster still?

- Oshyan

fleetwood

This is a very direct conversion of Matt's old file (the one I had any way ) from a V2 cloud to a V3 cloud.

However, as has been pointed out by others, V2 clouds have their own uses where they are better and faster. This may be one of those cases. The light propagation in V3 just has different qualities so the result will be a bit different no matter how you keep fiddling.  :)

Anyway here is the converted tgd and sample renders of the original V2 result and the V3 result.

bobbystahr

Nice and thanks. I was mainly interested to see how voroni billows would affect Matt's network as this .tgc goes way back before it.
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

AP

The shadows are less darkened using the Cloud layer v3, however adjusting the Param C values should allow for a more dark appearance.

Dune

Loose links is sometimes a problem when importing clipfiles anyway (especially when nodes are put in containers interlinking), so I recommend firstly to build everything from scratch (the more you do that, the better you understand all workings), and carefully check what you really need (in terms of nodes and quality settings), and second check clipfiles for their contents, and whether you need all nodes.
Some clipfiles don't work together very well either.

bobbystahr

Quote from: Dune on December 03, 2016, 02:00:17 AM
Loose links is sometimes a problem when importing clipfiles anyway (especially when nodes are put in containers interlinking), so I recommend firstly to build everything from scratch (the more you do that, the better you understand all workings), and carefully check what you really need (in terms of nodes and quality settings), and second check clipfiles for their contents, and whether you need all nodes.
Some clipfiles don't work together very well either.

I agree, but was chasing the fabeled and hard ti achieve Mackerel Sky and Matt posted this some time ago as a starting point.
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist