High ongoing cost, relatively low "improvements".

Started by jwiede, July 24, 2018, 06:22:28 pm

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WAS

July 27, 2018, 01:48:08 pm #60 Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 01:50:13 pm by WASasquatch
Quote from: Prometheus on July 27, 2018, 01:44:48 pm
Quote from: WASasquatch on July 27, 2018, 01:39:59 pm
Quote from: Prometheus on July 27, 2018, 01:38:33 pm
I have now found the node functions for this about rotating cloud layers..look at the image..

The functions are there and it is possible, but as I mentioned before, most other software does this with direct rotational acess,such as vue..which makes it a breeze to use, nodes are powerful..but not when it comes at the expense of having the software not capable acessing directly the more basic important functions.

Vue even has opengl direct gizmo rotational control, for hero clouds, as full global clouds.


Try inputing incremental steps and watch that renderer keep up (if you don't crash). It's jut not practical to have rotation dragger or button to be watching the results... Especially with working with V3 clouds. My system is still supposedly within TG's System Requirements and clouds take several moments before even the first phase of the preview shows. And there is a bit of computation going on to get that first phase. Me dragging around a slider or something, I'd crash, like I do a lot with cloud work. Lol


There is absolutely nothing wrong on adding incremental steps, it renders just fine in previewer, and i can watch the rotation in the renderer iterate update decently fast.

Now you are talking about dragging and crashing, now you are assuming..there is no slider or gizmo to try this out.

Maybe it is your system, I do this all the time in Houdini, Lightwave, vue...no problems at all, no crash and decently fast preview updates.

If you suggest Terragen would crash..then I suggest they need to make sure it doesn´t ..or you may need to update to a better computer system?


You originally described a visual rotation aid. That inherently entails being able to drag and rotate. Like the ability to drag the cloud layer itself on XYZ. That would be the way to add it, if it were added, not a entirely separate, random rotation only thing. Though I'm sure it could be done, that's just counter-intuitive.

I am also not sure how fast you are stepping clouds but for me, again, I have to wait awhile before I can one result. Terragens minimum requirements are 4-core, and 8gb of ram. Not very specific at that.

Update: And of course, sure enough, I started changing numbers quickly and clicking away (to start a preview) and crashed. Lol

Matt

It shouldn't crash. Can you send us a TGD? What type of cloud is it?
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

WAS

July 27, 2018, 02:06:06 pm #62 Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:09:11 pm by WASasquatch
Quote from: Matt on July 27, 2018, 01:57:02 pm
It shouldn't crash. Can you send us a TGD? What type of cloud is it?


Just a v3 with a transform input, shouldn't be any different than any other file.

The previewer, like with any other many changes, tends to crash, hence the request by you and Oshyan to pause my previewer in these instances. It resets when changes are made, and starts doing computations.

Code (xml) Select

<terragen
name = "Project"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "0 0 0"
gui_group = ""
written_by_program = "Terragen 4"
written_by_version = "4.2.10.0"
author = ""
comments = ""
current_frame = "1"
start_frame = "1"
end_frame = "100"
gui_network_view_position = "304.5895438 143.9973676 0"
gui_network_view_size = "1066 387 0"
gui_network_view_zoom = "0.6905405529"
>
<camera
name = "Render Camera"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "640 0 0"
gui_group = "Cameras"
show_camera_body_in_preview = "1"
show_frustum_in_preview = "1"
show_path_in_preview = "1"
position = "0 10 -30"
rotation = "18 0 0"
light_exposure = "1"
perspective = "1"
fisheye = "0"
use_horizontal_fov = "1"
horizontal_fov = "60"
use_vertical_fov = "0"
vertical_fov = "40"
focal_length_in_mm = "31.17691454"
film_aperture_in_mm = "36 24"
orthographic = "0"
use_ortho_width = "1"
ortho_width = "1000"
use_ortho_height = "0"
ortho_height = "1000"
spherical = "0"
motion_blur_position = "1"
motion_blur_length = "0.5"
shutter_offset = "-0.25"
subject_distance = "100"
aperture_diameter_in_mm = "5"
import_position = "1"
import_rotation = "1"
import_fov_general = "1"
import_Z_up = "0"
import_rotation_order = "4"
import_vertical_FOV = "1"
import_focal_length = "0"
import_focal_length_to_FOV = "0"
do_not_import_FOV = "0"
m_fbx_convert_to_metres = "1"
import_offset = "0 0 0"
import_scale = "1"
import_filename = ""
export_filename = ""
stereo = "0"
stereo_left = "1"
stereo_centre = "0"
stereo_right = "0"
stereo_mode = "0"
inter-axial_separation_in_mm = "63.5"
zero_parallax_distance = "2.54"
>
</camera>
<render
name = "Render 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "960 -120 0"
gui_group = "Renderers"
master = "1"
image_width = "800"
lock_aspect_ratio = "0"
image_height = "450"
image_aspect_ratio = "1.777777778"
pixel_aspect_ratio = "1"
camera = "Render Camera"
render_layer = ""
surfaces_visible = "1"
atmosphere_visible = "1"
do_shadows = "1"
detail = "0.5"
anti-aliasing = "2"
ray_trace_atmosphere = "1"
defer_all_shading = "0"
motion_blur = "1"
motion_blur_method = "1"
depth_of_field = "0"
dof_method = "2"
GI_relative_detail = "2"
GI_sample_quality = "2"
GI_blur_radius = "8"
supersample_prepass = "0"
GI_surface_details = "1"
do_crop_region = "0"
crop_left = "0"
crop_right = "1"
crop_bottom = "0"
crop_top = "1"
crop_to_object = "0"
crop_object_name = ""
pixel_filter = "2"
anti-aliasing_bloom = "1"
experimental_atmo_bloom = "0"
atmo_bloom_amount = "0.25"
atmo_bloom_size = "0.25"
bloom = "0"
bloom_amount = "0.1"
starburst = "0"
starburst_amount = "0.1"
starburst_softness = "0.05"
detail_blending = "0"
displacement_filter = "1"
microvertex_jittering = "1"
detail_jittering = "1"
soft_clip_effect = "1"
soft_clip_softness = "1"
compensate_soft_clip = "1"
contrast = "1"
contrast_adjust = "0.25"
gamma_correction = "2.2"
maximum_threads = "64"
ray_detail_region = "1"
ray_detail_region_padding = "0"
lock_subdiv_to_frame = "0"
lock_to_frame_number = "1"
ray_trace_everything = "0"
GI_prepass_padding = "0"
do_reverse_primary_rays = "0"
reverse_primary_rays_multiplier = "1"
ray_trace_objects = "1"
do_ray_traced_shadows = "1"
output_image_filename = "C:\Users\WAS\Documents\temp.%04d.tif"
extra_output_images = "0"
extra_output_image_filename = "C:\Users\WAS\Documents\temp.IMAGETYPE.%04d.tif"
create_subfolders = "1"
exr_pixel_type = "1"
tiff_bits = "8"
tiff_compression = "1"
micro_exporter = "0"
micro_exporter_name = ""
sequence_first = "1"
sequence_last = "100"
sequence_step = "1"
>
</render>
<enviro_light
name = "Enviro light"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "320 0 0"
gui_group = "Lighting"
enable = "1"
mode = "1"
ambient_strength_on_surfaces = "1"
ambient_colour_on_surfaces = "0.6499999762 0.8000000119 1"
ambient_strength_in_atmosphere = "1"
ambient_colour_in_atmosphere = "0.6499999762 0.8000000119 1"
global_strength_on_surfaces = "1"
global_tint_on_surfaces = "1 1 1"
global_strength_in_atmosphere = "1"
global_tint_in_atmosphere = "1 1 1"
strength_on_surfaces = "1"
colour_on_surfaces = "1 1 1"
strength_in_atmosphere = "1"
colour_in_atmosphere = "1 1 1"
>
</enviro_light>
<sunlight
name = "Sunlight 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "320 -60 0"
gui_group = "Lighting"
enable = "1"
light_surfaces = "1"
light_atmosphere = "1"
heading = "300"
elevation = "25"
colour = "0.8999999762 0.9359999895 1"
strength = "5"
cast_shadows = "1"
shadows_of_surfaces = "1"
shadows_of_atmosphere = "1"
soft_shadows = "0"
soft_shadow_diameter = "0.5"
soft_shadow_samples = "9"
soft_shadow_sample_jitter = "1"
glow_in_atmosphere = "1"
specular_highlights = "1"
visible_disc = "1"
angular_diameter = "0.5"
>
</sunlight>
<sphere
name = "Background"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "0 -60 0"
gui_group = "Objects"
enable = "1"
show_b-box_in_preview = "0"
visibility = "2"
visible_to_camera = "1"
visible_to_other_rays = "1"
cast_shadows = "0"
render_method = "0"
sorting_bias = "0"
centre = "0 0 0"
radius = "-200000000"
rotate = "0 0 0"
scale = "1 1 1"
proper_surface_normals = "0"
scaling_deforms_normals = "1"
heading = "0"
elevation = "0"
distance = "0"
surface_shader = "Background shader"
displacement_tolerance = "1"
import_offset = "0 0 0"
import_scale = "1"
import_motion_filename = ""
>
<constant_shader
name = "Background shader"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "200 0 0"
gui_group = ""
enable = "1"
input_node = ""
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
colour = "0 0 0"
alpha = "0 0 0"
>
</constant_shader>
</sphere>
<planet
name = "Planet 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "0 0 0"
gui_group = "Objects"
enable = "1"
show_b-box_in_preview = "0"
render_surface = "1"
translate_textures_with_planet = "0"
render_atmosphere = "1"
rotate_textures_with_planet = "0"
lat_long_at_apex = "0 0"
centre = "0 -6378000 0"
rotation = "0 0 0"
radius = "6378000"
heading = "0"
elevation = "270"
distance = "6378000"
surface_shader = "Base colours"
atmosphere_shader = "Cloud layer v3 01"
displacement_tolerance = "1"
import_offset = "0 0 0"
import_scale = "1"
import_motion_filename = ""
>
</planet>
<planet_atmosphere
name = "Atmosphere 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "0 460 0"
gui_group = "Atmosphere"
enable = "1"
input_node = ""
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
enable_primary = "1"
enable_secondary = "1"
centre = "0 -6378000 0"
radius = "6378000"
seed = "0"
haze_density = "1"
haze_horizon_colour = "0.25 0.25 0.25"
bluesky_density = "2.5"
bluesky_horizon_colour = "0.200000003 0.25 0.3000000119"
bluesky_additive = "0.75"
bluesky_additive_colour = "0.1438666731 0.3779166639 1"
redsky_decay = "2.5"
haze_exp_height = "2000"
bluesky_exp_height = "8000"
ceiling_adjust = "7"
ceiling = "56000"
floor = "-16000"
haze_glow_amount = "1.5"
haze_glow_power = "1"
bluesky_glow_amount = "0"
bluesky_glow_power = "0.75"
enviro_light = "1"
enviro_light_tint = "1 1 1"
anisotropic_enviro_light = "1"
shadow_function = ""
ambient = "0 0 0"
fake_dark_power = "0"
fake_dark_sharpness = "10"
bluesky_density_colour = "0.2158000022 0.4535000026 1"
redsky_decay_colour = "0.805896461 0.6354003549 0.3678794503"
ozone_factor = "0.5"
improved_glow_model = "1"
number_of_samples = "16"
adjust_to_distance = "1"
enable_ray_traced_shadows = "0"
>
</planet_atmosphere>
<power_fractal_shader_v3
name = "Base colours"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-920 220 0"
gui_group = "Shaders"
enable = "1"
input_node = "Compute Terrain"
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
seed = "8028"
feature_scale = "1"
lead-in_scale = "1000"
smallest_scale = "0.1125930452"
noise_octaves = "15"
obey_smoothing_filter = "1"
noise_stretch_XYZ = "1 1 1"
apply_high_colour = "1"
high_colour = "0.3000000119 0.3000000119 0.3000000119"
apply_low_colour = "1"
low_colour = "0 0 0"
colour_contrast = "0.125"
colour_offset = "0"
colour_roughness = "5"
clamp_high_colour = "1"
clamp_low_colour = "1"
apply_displacement = "0"
displacement_direction = "1"
displacement_amplitude = "1"
displacement_offset = "0"
displacement_roughness = "1"
displacement_spike_limit = "1"
continue_spike_limit = "0"
adjust_coastline = "0"
coastline_altitude = "0"
coastline_smoothing = "30"
noise_flavour = "0"
ridge_smoothing = "0"
gully_smoothing = "0"
noise_variation = "1"
variation_method = "2"
buoyancy_from_variation = "0"
clumping_of_variation = "0"
better_colour_continuity = "0"
better_displacement_continuity = "0"
distort_by_normal = "1"
distortion_by_normal = "5"
lead-in_warp_effect = "1"
lead-in_warp_amount = "0.5"
less_warp_at_feature_scale = "0"
allow_vertical_warp = "0"
four-d_noise = "0"
four-d_noise_speed = "0.1"
reference_frame_number = "0"
blend_by_shader = "0"
blending_shader = ""
fit_blendshader_to_this = "0"
invert_blendshader = "0"
>
</power_fractal_shader_v3>
<simple_shape_shader
name = "Simple shape shader 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-720 800 0"
gui_group = "Terrain"
enable = "1"
input_node = ""
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
show_b-box_in_preview = "1"
draw_shape_edges_in_preview = "1"
type_of_shape = "1"
position = "0 0 0"
size = "10000 10000"
rotation = "0"
polygon_sides = "5"
apply_colour = "1"
apply_main_colour = "1"
colour = "1 1 1"
apply_edge_colour = "1"
edge_colour = "0 0 0"
colour_edge_profile = "1"
colour_edge_width = "90"
colour_edge_units = "1"
colour_position_key = "1"
apply_displacement = "0"
displace_relative_to_surface = "1"
displace_relative_to_shader_position = "0"
displacement_direction = "1"
displacement_amplitude = "1"
displacement_offset = "0"
displacement_edge_profile = "0"
displacement_edge_width = "50"
displacement_edge_units = "0"
displacement_position_key = "1"
>
</simple_shape_shader>
<power_fractal_shader_v3
name = "Fractal terrain 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-920 740 0"
gui_group = "Terrain"
enable = "1"
input_node = ""
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
seed = "119"
feature_scale = "5000"
lead-in_scale = "25000"
smallest_scale = "0.107881116"
noise_octaves = "20"
obey_smoothing_filter = "1"
noise_stretch_XYZ = "1 1 1"
apply_high_colour = "0"
high_colour = "1 1 1"
apply_low_colour = "0"
low_colour = "0 0 0"
colour_contrast = "0.5"
colour_offset = "0"
colour_roughness = "5"
clamp_high_colour = "1"
clamp_low_colour = "1"
apply_displacement = "1"
displacement_direction = "1"
displacement_amplitude = "2000"
displacement_offset = "0"
displacement_roughness = "0.875"
displacement_spike_limit = "0.25"
continue_spike_limit = "1"
adjust_coastline = "0"
coastline_altitude = "0"
coastline_smoothing = "30"
noise_flavour = "3"
ridge_smoothing = "0.1"
gully_smoothing = "0.1"
noise_variation = "2"
variation_method = "2"
buoyancy_from_variation = "0.5"
clumping_of_variation = "0.25"
better_colour_continuity = "0"
better_displacement_continuity = "0"
distort_by_normal = "0"
distortion_by_normal = "5"
lead-in_warp_effect = "1"
lead-in_warp_amount = "0.75"
less_warp_at_feature_scale = "1"
allow_vertical_warp = "0"
four-d_noise = "0"
four-d_noise_speed = "0.1"
reference_frame_number = "0"
blend_by_shader = "1"
blending_shader = "Simple shape shader 01"
fit_blendshader_to_this = "0"
invert_blendshader = "1"
>
</power_fractal_shader_v3>
<fractal_warp_shader
name = "Fractal warp shader 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-920 620 0"
gui_group = "Terrain"
enable = "1"
input_node = "Fractal terrain 01"
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
scale = "1000"
warp_amount = "0.25"
variation = "1.5"
roughness = "1"
scale_filter = ""
obey_smoothing_filter = "1"
blend_by_shader = "0"
blending_shader = ""
fit_blendshader_to_this = "0"
invert_blendshader = "0"
>
</fractal_warp_shader>
<compute_terrain
name = "Compute Terrain"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-920 500 0"
gui_group = "Terrain"
enable = "1"
input_node = "Fractal warp shader 01"
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
gradient_patch_size = "20"
smooth_surface = "0"
>
</compute_terrain>
<group
name = "Objects"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "0 -80 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "240 320 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.8000000119 0.8000000119 0.8000000119"
special_group = "1"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Terrain"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-720 660 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "640 440 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.2119999975 0.5174000263 0.1138999984"
special_group = "2"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Shaders"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "-720 220 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "640 280 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.7968999743 0.1604000032 0.1604000032"
special_group = "3"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Water"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "200 840 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "640 240 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.1000000015 0.5 0.349999994"
special_group = "4"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Atmosphere"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "200 350 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "640 400 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.2310000062 0.3203999996 1"
special_group = "5"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Lighting"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "320 -80 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "240 320 1"
gui_node_colour = "1 0.7299000025 0.2195000052"
special_group = "6"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Cameras"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "640 -80 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "240 320 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.3021000028 0.2673999965 0.4647000134"
special_group = "7"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<group
name = "Renderers"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "973 -80 0"
gui_group = ""
gui_node_size = "266.0336416 320 1"
gui_node_colour = "0.7372000217 0.3440000117 0.2119999975"
special_group = "8"
global_bookmark = "1"
>
</group>
<cloud_layer_v3
name = "Cloud layer v3 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "80 200 0"
gui_group = "Atmosphere"
enable = "1"
input_node = "/Atmosphere 01"
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
seed = "0"
enable_primary = "1"
enable_secondary = "1"
move_textures_with_cloud = "1"
centre = "0 -6378000 0"
radius = "6378000"
cloud_altitude = "1751.959324"
cloud_depth = "500"
local_sphere = "1"
local_sphere_centre = "0 1750 5000"
local_sphere_radius = "5000"
local_sphere_falloff = "1"
local_sphere_value_at_radius = "-0.5"
density_shader = "Transform input shader 01"
edge_sharpness = "1"
cloud_density = "0.1"
coverage_adjust = "0"
cloud_colour = "0.25 0.25 0.25"
sun_glow_amount = "2"
sun_glow_power = "1"
light_propagation = "3"
light_propagation_mix = "1"
fake_internal_scattering = "0.25"
enviro_light = "1"
enviro_light_tint = "1 1 1"
darker_unresolved_scattering = "1"
altitude_offset_function = ""
altitude_offset_multiplier = "1"
depth_modulator = ""
depth_modulator_centre = "0"
final_density_modulator = ""
direct_light_modulator = ""
enviro_light_modulator = ""
ambient_light_modulator = ""
shadow_function = ""
ambient = "0 0 0"
fake_dark_power = "0"
fake_dark_sharpness = "10"
improved_lighting_model = "1"
taper_top_and_base = "1"
flatter_base = "0"
base_wispiness = "0"
base_softness = "0"
invert_profile = "0"
coverage_gamma = "1"
rendering_method = "1"
quality = "0.25"
number_of_samples = "8"
sample_jitter = "1"
enable_ray_traced_shadows = "0"
acceleration_cache = "0"
use_2D_shadow_map = "0"
shadow_map_resolution = "200 200"
shadow_map_blur_radius = "2 2"
use_voxel_buffer = "1"
millions_of_voxels = "30"
voxel_buffer_resolution = "826 43 844"
use_voxels_to_accelerate_empty_space = "0"
visualise_voxels = "0"
use_voxels_for_shadows = "1"
voxel_shadow_threshold = "8"
>
</cloud_layer_v3>
<cloud_fractal_shader_v3
name = "Density fractal 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "200 400 0"
gui_group = "Atmosphere"
enable = "1"
input_node = ""
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
seed = "34969"
feature_scale = "500"
lead-in_scale = "20000"
smallest_scale = "10"
noise_octaves = "13"
obey_smoothing_filter = "1"
noise_stretch_XYZ = "1 1 1"
apply_high_colour = "1"
high_colour = "1 1 1"
apply_low_colour = "0"
low_colour = "0 0 0"
contrast = "1"
coverage_adjust = "0"
roughness = "1.5"
clamp_high = "0"
clamp_low = "0"
apply_displacement = "0"
displacement_direction = "1"
displacement_amplitude = "1"
displacement_offset = "0"
displacement_roughness = "1"
displacement_spike_limit = "1"
continue_spike_limit = "0"
adjust_coastline = "0"
coastline_altitude = "0"
coastline_smoothing = "30"
noise_flavour = "0"
ridge_smoothing = "0.1"
gully_smoothing = "0.1"
noise_variation = "1"
variation_method = "2"
buoyancy_from_variation = "0.5"
clumping_of_variation = "0.25"
better_colour_continuity = "0"
better_displacement_continuity = "0"
distort_by_normal = "0"
distortion_by_normal = "5"
lead-in_warp_effect = "1"
lead-in_warp_amount = "0.5"
less_warp_at_feature_scale = "1"
allow_vertical_warp = "1"
four-d_noise = "0"
four-d_noise_speed = "0.1"
reference_frame_number = "0"
blend_by_shader = "0"
blending_shader = ""
fit_blendshader_to_this = "0"
invert_blendshader = "0"
>
</cloud_fractal_shader_v3>
<transform_input_shader
name = "Transform input shader 01"
gui_use_node_pos = "1"
gui_node_pos = "200 300 0"
gui_group = "Atmosphere"
enable = "1"
input_node = "/Density fractal 01"
gui_use_preview_patch_size = "0"
gui_preview_patch_size = "1000 1000"
use_world_space = "0"
use_undisplaced_space = "0"
translate = "0"
translate_by = "0 0 0"
rotate = "1"
rotate_by = "0 30 0"
scale = "0"
scale_by = "1 1 1"
>
</transform_input_shader>
</terragen>

WAS

July 27, 2018, 02:16:00 pm #63 Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:30:53 pm by WASasquatch
Though, considering the nature of the Transform Inputs "Rotation" feature, maybe the addition of sliders for each value, with directional step buttons on either side would be a fancy feature to have. Like below the rotation inputs. That could apply realtime rotation for many that can handle it. And of course not just for clouds. And it would be a relatively localized update to add that feature.

Image for fun scales are off on sliders but meh

Prometheus

July 27, 2018, 03:22:55 pm #64 Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 03:34:14 pm by Prometheus
[attachimg=2][attachimg=2]
Quote from: WASasquatch on July 27, 2018, 02:16:00 pm
Though, considering the nature of the Transform Inputs "Rotation" feature, maybe the addition of sliders for each value, with directional step buttons on either side would be a fancy feature to have. Like below the rotation inputs. That could apply realtime rotation for many that can handle it. And of course not just for clouds. And it would be a relatively localized update to add that feature.

Image for fun scales are off on sliders but meh


Great..now you are almost talking with the same idea, that mockup is a kind of improvement, but I would go further and just put the x,y,z values in front of the axis fields, and you only need a visual slider ..not a long slider bar...all that would spare you space in the UI.
Wether or not you then have the fields stacked verticly or horisontally ..that is a format for discussion on what requires less space.

Lightwave has it stacked verticaly for any kind of texture, (see image) the small arrows next to the fields are the slider drag button, and the values are interpretad as heading, pitch and banking, which may not suit Terragen.

The only thing I complain about that with lightwave, that is that when I scale textures within a landscape, I have to enter every value three times as there are no way to scale uniformly ..except referencing the texture to a null, in blender and vue, you can for instance just select all the fields with the mouse and drag..and it scales uniformly, now this isn´t good to use for rotation, but for scaling of textures on landscapes.

Sample image, cloud made with the new lightwave 2018 volumetrics..I hope I do not go past forum rules here with that image and referencing...creating cloud pillars like this is in my opinion easier in Lightwave..I just clone nulls, move them and rotate textures and easy to get desired height etc.

What lightwave still doesn´t do good, unless using the  ogo taiki volumetric plugin...that is a  full volumetric spectral skies...the new global scattering system isn´t adapted for anykind of similar real world physics as terragen and vue, ogo taiki may get similar result.
Nor is the volumetric items for cloud made as infinite global/planetary scale...so they need to work on that.

And the GI and multiscattering in lightwave can not compare to Terragens, Terragens is far better for this kind of things.
Again..someone please notify me if my post of the image and lightwave reference is out of forum rules?

WAS

Quote from: Prometheus on July 27, 2018, 03:22:55 pm
[attachimg=2][attachimg=2]
Quote from: WASasquatch on July 27, 2018, 02:16:00 pm
Though, considering the nature of the Transform Inputs "Rotation" feature, maybe the addition of sliders for each value, with directional step buttons on either side would be a fancy feature to have. Like below the rotation inputs. That could apply realtime rotation for many that can handle it. And of course not just for clouds. And it would be a relatively localized update to add that feature.

Image for fun scales are off on sliders but meh


Great..now you are almost talking with the same idea, that mockup is a kind of improvement, but I would go further and just put the x,y,z values in front of the axis fields, and you only need a visual slider ..not a long slider bar...all that would spare you space in the UI.
Wether or not you then have the fields stacked verticly or horisontally ..that is a format for discussion on what requires less space.


That pretty sure, like I mentioned previously, that would require a GUI port to another framework. A pretty big endeavor. The sort of functionality in those programs is because of the GUI framework. I don't believe what is used has click and drag hidden sliders. They also don't give you a representation of the a value range, which is why TG uses these sliders in some instances, like I also mentioned. And it wouldn't make sense again, to be doing that with one thing, that's not intuitive, that breaks the flow of the GUI, so all sliders would need to be changed that aren't explicitly specific to function the same. Again more of a whole GUI port/rewrite. I've already discussed this before, and while with a more compatible GUI, it was mentioned it was on the roadmap, waaay down the road.

Matt

Quote from: WASasquatch on July 27, 2018, 04:41:31 pm
That pretty sure, like I mentioned previously, that would require a GUI port to another framework.


These things are possible with our current framework. They can be built with low level components. Not a trivial task to make changes that affect the whole GUI, but it's possible.
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

jwiede

Quote from: WASasquatch on July 27, 2018, 01:01:53 pm
You're still explaining personal problems, that are inherent to you, not everyone. People have plainly said it doesn't bother them, like me. I can see the preview just fine.

He is not speaking solely for himself, myself and others have already made similar comments.  Calling his comments a "personal problem, that are inherent to you, not everyone" is dismissive to him as well as others of us who've made similar comments. 

These are general usability problems he's relating, and contrary to your assertion, not everyone else is "fine" with Terragen as it is in that regard.  The whole point of the post I had to split into multiple parts was to give multiple examples for different scenarios where the general lack of "standard" 3D placement/orientation tools made many different aspects of Terragen much more difficult to use than necessary. 

He's referring to a specific case, but his specific case is part of a genre of problems I mentioned as well.  He's not the only user who finds this genre of issues a problem in daily use, there are many more (including myself).  Further, some of the forum posts where others report difficult with the existing inputs, are themselves also scenarios where access to more standard 3D interactive placement/orientation interfaces would mitigate or even eliminate their problems.

One of the problems with strict numeric entry is that the preview/RTP views do not really provide a good means of visualizing where specific locations fall within Terragen's "world coordinate space".  If you start doing any sort of serious look at 3D inputs and interaction efficiencies (look at SIGCHI, ACM, IEEE for starters) you'll see there's been a LOT of research into the efficiencies of different means of navigating within and controlling placement/orientation of entities in multiscale 3D environments (which is what Terragen manifests).  To say that research has shown manual input of numeric values as primary means of 3D positioning/orientation is inefficient would be an immense understatement.  Even the most basic in-environment mechanisms for 3D manipulation are vastly more efficient and give users much greater situational awareness of how their actions fit into the overall environment.

Matt / Oshyan, I'd strongly recommend at least perusing the following papers:

Luca Chittaro , Roberto Ranon , Lucio Ieronutti, 3D object arrangement for novice users: the effectiveness of combining a first-person and a map view, Proceedings of the 16th ACM Symposium on Virtual Reality Software and Technology, November 18-20, 2009, Kyoto, Japan

Taylor Sando , Melanie Tory , Pourang Irani, Effects of animation, user-controlled interactions, and multiple static views in understanding 3D structures, Proceedings of the 6th Symposium on Applied Perception in Graphics and Visualization, September 30-October 02, 2009, Chania, Crete, Greece

Melanie Tory, Torsten Moller, M. Stella Atkins, and Arthur E. Kirkpatrick. 2004. Combining 2D and 3D views for orientation and relative position tasks. In Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI '04). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 73-80. DOI=http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/985692.985702

Melanie Tory , Arthur E. Kirkpatrick , M. Stella Atkins , Torsten Moller, Visualization Task Performance with 2D, 3D, and Combination Displays, IEEE Transactions on Visualization and Computer Graphics, v.12 n.1, p.2-13, January 2006

Tina Ziemek, Sarah Creem-Regehr, William Thompson, and Ross Whitaker. 2012. Evaluating the effectiveness of orientation indicators with an awareness of individual differences. ACM Trans. Appl. Percept. 9, 2, Article 7 (June 2012), 23 pages. DOI=http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2207216.2207218

James McCrae, Michael Glueck, Tovi Grossman, Azam Khan, and Karan Singh. 2010. Exploring the design space of multiscale 3D orientation. In Proceedings of the International Conference on Advanced Visual Interfaces (AVI '10), Giuseppe Santucci (Ed.). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 81-88. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/1842993.1843008

They explore improvement areas where Terragen has some specific issues, including users' navigation of their view position in terms of the world coordinate space, general placement/orientation of objects in 3D environments, and in terms of helping users understand general spatial relationships and orientations in a "big picture" sense.  A couple also touch on why relying on a single 3D view is inefficient/problematic for users in 3D navigation / placement / orientation tasks.

I leave the research into why nigh-all 2D & 3D apps have abandoned numeric entry of coordinates and measurements as a primary means of areal/spatial placement/orientation, and now support it as a secondary "special use case" mechanism, to the reader. 

You'll need to go back to the 90s and before, but there is actually a fairly decent amount of research metrics still available explaining why interactive, in-view UI approaches replaced numeric entry of coordinates and orientations as primary input mechanisms among CAD and Visualization applications (2D & 3D), and slightly later in the then-infant 2D & 3D graphics/media application market. 

Hint:  Those changes had nothing to do with wanting to make CAD and Visualization apps' UIs "fancier" (irrelevant, to those markets' customers), and just about everything to do with maximizing productivity and "comprehensibility" while minimizing user errors -- among the highest priority concerns of customers in the CAD and Visualization markets.

Matt

Thanks John.

The RTP is missing a lot of the features that are available in the preview in non-RTP mode, but these are planned to be brought into RTP mode this year. Specifically manipulation handles for objects, cameras, lights and shaders which have them, as well as coordinate selection for pasting into numeric fields. You're probably aware that these things exist in Terragen and your concerns go well beyond just those, but I mention this just in case you're not. At the moment you have to go back to non-RTP mode to do many things but the end goal is for RTP to be at least as useful as non-RTP.

We also have orthographic view modes in the preview, but they are not as easy to use as I'd like. We could do with a quad view.

Documentation is an ongoing battle for us. Work is being done on this at the moment and we will keep pushing this forward. We are going to expand our team this year to move faster on documentation and training materials.
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

WAS

Quote from: Matt on July 27, 2018, 11:51:46 pm
Thanks John.

The RTP is missing a lot of the features that are available in the preview in non-RTP mode, but these are planned to be brought into RTP mode this year. Specifically manipulation handles for objects, cameras, lights and shaders which have them, as well as coordinate selection for pasting into numeric fields. You're probably aware that these things exist in Terragen and your concerns go well beyond just those, but I mention this just in case you're not. At the moment you have to go back to non-RTP mode to do many things but the end goal is for RTP to be at least as useful as non-RTP.

We also have orthographic view modes in the preview, but they are not as easy to use as I'd like. We could do with a quad view.

Documentation is an ongoing battle for us. Work is being done on this at the moment and we will keep pushing this forward. We are going to expand our team this year to move faster on documentation and training materials.


Is the RTP also suppose to be so slow? This is another concern I have with Terragen's System Requirements. My 4 core won't get back 4/4 for well over an hour. Making it essentially useless and just a block show. Might as well do a preview render in low quality.

Quote from: jwiede on July 27, 2018, 07:41:13 pm
He is not speaking solely for himself, myself and others have already made similar comments.  Calling his comments a "personal problem, that are inherent to you, not everyone" is dismissive to him as well as others of us who've made similar comments. 

These are general usability problems he's relating, and contrary to your assertion, not everyone else is "fine" with Terragen as it is in that regard.  The whole point of the post I had to split into multiple parts was to give multiple examples for different scenarios where the general lack of "standard" 3D placement/orientation tools made many different aspects of Terragen much more difficult to use than necessary. 


Again. Colour tones and icons are irrelevant to usability, and quantify subjective personal taste. This is not an argument, it's empirical fact. That was the main argument that was actually taking place. I in fact agreed to many optimization and improvement suggestions.

Quote from: jwiede on July 27, 2018, 07:41:13 pm
He's referring to a specific case, but his specific case is part of a genre of problems I mentioned as well.  He's not the only user who finds this genre of issues a problem in daily use, there are many more (including myself).  Further, some of the forum posts where others report difficult with the existing inputs, are themselves also scenarios where access to more standard 3D interactive placement/orientation interfaces would mitigate or even eliminate their problems.


I'm referring to GUI assets, again. And again while rarely this is brought up, it seems every time, users tend to agree more towards leaving the GUI alone. Not the other way around. This isn't just this topic.

Quote from: jwiede on July 27, 2018, 07:41:13 pm
...

I leave the research into why nigh-all 2D & 3D apps have abandoned numeric entry of coordinates and measurements as a primary means of areal/spatial placement/orientation, and now support it as a secondary "special use case" mechanism, to the reader. 


An ironic statement considering none have, and where there isn't an ability for raw input, there is a lot of request support for and support tickets about being limited to GUI quirks. The one thing that is uniform between systems is raw data, and is usually always available in good production level software.  ::) In fact, raw, primary inputs usually come before their alternatives.






Dune

QuoteAnd when, like you mentioned, discovered something new, it should be shared in documentation

I'm afraid not. I like helping (some) people, but I spend an awful lot of (unpaid) time working up ways to get things working in TG. I'm not putting that all online for lurkers who never post or help) and just grab and earn. By the way, I've posted tons of workable files over the years, just not everything. And if something works in my lines of nodes, I can't just pull that out as a tgc and post it for other uses. It's all interdependable, and I don't sometimes even understand what I've done a year ago if it's a bit more complicated.

WAS

Quote from: Dune on July 28, 2018, 01:52:56 am
QuoteAnd when, like you mentioned, discovered something new, it should be shared in documentation

I'm afraid not. I like helping (some) people, but I spend an awful lot of (unpaid) time working up ways to get things working in TG. I'm not putting that all online for lurkers who never post or help) and just grab and earn. By the way, I've posted tons of workable files over the years, just not everything. And if something works in my lines of nodes, I can't just pull that out as a tgc and post it for other uses. It's all interdependable, and I don't sometimes even understand what I've done a year ago if it's a bit more complicated.


By that I mean essential things people struggle/question. For example the transparency issues, recently, or further back with coloured glass or like Bobby's Stained Glass. Not like "How I make photo-realistic tundra" or something.

Though fun stuff like that is helpful, more just tutorials. What I mean is examples of what these functions can do. More than a lot of them have pretty vague explanations. Especially when it comes to functions.

Dune


Prometheus

Quote from: WASasquatch on July 28, 2018, 01:42:32 am

Again. Colour tones and icons are irrelevant to usability, and quantify subjective personal taste. This is not an argument, it's empirical fact. That was the main argument that was actually taking place. I in fact agreed to many optimization and improvement suggestions.




Where did you learn this? where is the scientific studies, researches and tests that validates what you assert about color tones and icons being irrelevant to usability?

jwiede

July 28, 2018, 08:09:55 pm #74 Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 08:22:52 pm by jwiede
Quote from: Prometheus on July 28, 2018, 06:23:55 am
Quote from: WASasquatch on July 28, 2018, 01:42:32 am

Again. Colour tones and icons are irrelevant to usability, and quantify subjective personal taste. This is not an argument, it's empirical fact. That was the main argument that was actually taking place. I in fact agreed to many optimization and improvement suggestions.


Where did you learn this? where is the scientific studies, researches and tests that validates what you assert about color tones and icons being irrelevant to usability?


Probably not from the following papers...   ;D

Aliaksei Miniukovich and Antonella De Angeli. 2015. Visual diversity and user interface quality. In Proceedings of the 2015 British HCI Conference(British HCI '15). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 101-109. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2783446.2783580

Bodrogi, P. Chromaticity contrast in visual search on the multi-colour user interface Displays, Volume 24, Issue 1, February 2003, pp. 39--48

Gilles Tabart, Stéphane Conversy, Jean-Luc Vinot, and Sylvie Athènes. 2008. Designing Graphical Elements for Cognitively Demanding Activities: An Account on Fine-Tuning for Colors. In Interactive Systems. Design, Specification, and Verification, T. C. Graham and Philippe Palanque (Eds.). Lecture Notes In Computer Science, Vol. 5136. Springer-Verlag, Berlin, Heidelberg 136-148. DOI=http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/978-3-540-70569-7_13


Katharina Reinecke , Tom Yeh , Luke Miratrix , Rahmatri Mardiko , Yuechen Zhao , Jenny Liu , Krzysztof Z. Gajos, Predicting users' first impressions of website aesthetics with a quantification of perceived visual complexity and colorfulness, Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems, April 27-May 02, 2013, Paris, France  [doi>10.1145/2470654.2481281]

Aliaksei Miniukovich and Antonella De Angeli. 2014. Quantification of interface visual complexity. In Proceedings of the 2014 International Working Conference on Advanced Visual Interfaces (AVI '14). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 153-160. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/2598153.2598173

Duncan, J. and Humphreys, G. W. 1989. Visual search and stimulus similarity. Psychological Review, 96, 3, 433--458.

M. Zen and J. Vanderdonckt. Towards an evaluation of graphical user interfaces aesthetics based on metrics. In M. Bajec, M. Collard, and R. DeneckÃÍre, editors, IEEE 8th International Conference on Research Challenges in Information Science, RCIS 2014, Marrakech, Morocco, May 28-30, 2014, pages 1--12. IEEE, 2014.
   
Aliaksei Miniukovich and Antonella De Angeli. 2015. Computation of Interface Aesthetics. In Proceedings of the 33rd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI '15). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 1163-1172. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/2702123.2702575

Simon Harper , Eleni Michailidou , Robert Stevens, Toward a definition of visual complexity as an implicit measure of cognitive load, ACM Transactions on Applied Perception (TAP), v.6 n.2, p.1-18, February 2009  [doi>10.1145/1498700.1498704]

Therese Dries-Tönnies, Axel Platz, Michael Burmester, Magdalena Laib, and Nathalie Blanc. 2015. Visual Characteristics' Inherent Impact on People's Strategic Orientation. In Proceedings of the 33rd Annual ACM Conference Extended Abstracts on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI EA '15). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 1863-1868. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/2702613.2732915

Elliot, J. A., Maier, A. M., Moller, C. A., Friedman, R. & Meinhardt, J. (2007): Color and psychological functioning: the effect of red on performance attainment. Journal of experimental psychology, 136(1), 154--68