First time user feedback

[MDB]

I originally wrote this 8/2019. Because it felt so negative I never posted it.
But maybe some feedback like this could be insightful so here we go   

This is a first-time-user experience. (Even though I've tried tg2 and 3 a couple of times before. I was a very active 0.x user back in the day)
I think what could hold back new users is not so much the difficulty, but more the user experience.
These are all the problems I encountered while creating the attached render:

The program seems to have many small bugs and annoyances. Raytracing preview seems to have several glitches. But also normal preview can say 'finished rendering' while it's still at detail 5. All I know to do then is change a value to make it preview again. 

Switching the main tab always restarts the preview. I am missing a 'same 3D preview for all tabs' checkbox.

Trying to move the camera using the mouse is very erratic and tilts the horizon for reasons unknown to me, and thus is unusable. And every time I change the view, the camera switches to 'perspective view'. So again and again I have to click 'copy to current render camera'. Why can't we just live change the render camera? My view was also gone after a 'save+exit'. 'Make new camera from current view' would also be very helpful.

Enviro light controls do not seem to do anything in Ray Traced Preview, only in normal preview. But when rendering, the result is again different.. The clouds in the render reflect way more than in the preview.

Also several times I changed values of something and nothing happened, until I found out I had to enable a checkbox first. It can't be that hard to gray out settings when they're disabled? Or give a warning, anything.

Sliders can't be reset to default. Also there is no snapping to fixed values. You can't slide a value back to 1 for example. It becomes 1,000003462 or something.

Atmospheric controls are all interlinked. If I want to change the atmospheric red, other sliders also change, which makes it impossible to get the effect I'm after. I ended up making the sun orange instead. This might be an important reason why most TG4 renders I see are generally 'boring' mid-of-day scenes. (Sorry I'm being really harsh here!   )

To create a simple mist or haze layer you can only use clouds it seems. There isn't really an other option to add mist to a scene. Which is weird because this makes a 'misty cave' or strong sunrays a really hard - and CPU intensive - task.

At last, it surprises me how incomplete the documentation is. This is version 4, and still there is loads of info missing. Cirrus clouds? Render settings? I mean, it can't be that hard to at least explain what settings and checkboxes do after you've put so much effort into programming it?.. 

I really want to like the program, but I'm not sure if I ever can 


With love , 
Michiel (MDB)

[WAS]

Switching the main tab always restarts the preview. I am missing a 'same 3D preview for all tabs' checkbox.

This can be fixed by Unchecking "Dynamic Layout". Different tabs are tied to different views. For example, terrain uses the Object View. Render will switch to the 3D Preview with shaders and stuff activated.

Enviro light controls do not seem to do anything in Ray Traced Preview, only in normal preview. But when rendering, the result is again different.. The clouds in the render reflect way more than in the preview.

This is infuriating trying to work with scenes, and honestly, I've given up on the 3D Preview and RTP when it comes to anything exacting or lighting based. I just spot check with crop renders and different render settings.

Atmospheric controls are all interlinked. If I want to change the atmospheric red, other sliders also change, which makes it impossible to get the effect I'm after. I ended up making the sun orange instead. This might be an important reason why most TG4 renders I see are generally 'boring' mid-of-day scenes. (Sorry I'm being really harsh here!  )

Agreed. You can't make a Mars Atmosphere with just a the atmosphere shader easily. I get that this is tied into realistic controls, but having a customizable option for control would be nice. Not everything is Earth, or trying to be scientifically accurate in that regard.

To create a simple mist or haze layer you can only use clouds it seems. There isn't really an other option to add mist to a scene. Which is weird because this makes a 'misty cave' or strong sunrays a really hard - and CPU intensive - task.

I also agree here. There are actually a lot of areas TG could used "Faked" alternatives for. I get "realism" and all, but when you're just needlessly baking the CPU for something it's entirely unnecessary.

I mean, it can't be that hard to at least explain what settings and checkboxes do after you've put so much effort into programming it?..

Seriously though. Development logs are apparently nonexistent beyond somewhat vague change logs.

Terragen seems more like a hobbyist tool with great results. It needs serious work. I think a development team, and business team are really in order if the company wants to be taken serious by investors and artists. The effort doesn't seem to really be there, and a decade of needed features are ignored for in-house goals which sometimes are not needed or asked for by consumers.

I still have hopes for Terragen but, things are really stale. PT was a nice refresher but short lived over things I've wanted, and I'm sure it's the same for a lot of other people as well. And what people want should be Paramount in design. They are ultimately the tools/things people need to complete various aspects of their work without extraneous work or straight limitations. Some things fall on the toolset methods but a lot is just missing holes.

[N-drju]

To be blunt, I find it seriously unfair to post something that is two years old, just like that, out of the blue instead of saying this outright. Especially, amidst many new users joining the forums. Hmmm...

I think what could hold back new users is not so much the difficulty, but more the user experience.

Well, that is true of every single program. However, when you start using it, you gain experience.

I am sorry if I hurt someone's feelings but it seems that people often behave as they expect others to serve them ready solutions, while doing no research or learning on their own. Many of the guys around here have started their carrer not even knowing what a "mask" was. And they did not complain. Instead they sat down and carried on with their studies. One cannot count on having a pro-level experience just after a month of using a piece of software.

Trying to move the camera using the mouse is very erratic and tilts the horizon for reasons unknown to me, and thus is unusable. And every time I change the view, the camera switches to 'perspective view'. So again and again I have to click 'copy to current render camera'. Why can't we just live change the render camera?

I have never experienced anything weird while moving the camera, when did you encounter something like that?

Also, there is a good reason for the camera to switch to perspective view - in many cases you want to take a look into an area keeping, at the same time, your rendering POV intact.

What one can do though, is to have several cameras (I usually end up with three) that let you look around. Take a note that extra cameras always stay exactly where you moved them.

To create a simple mist or haze layer you can only use clouds it seems. There isn't really an other option to add mist to a scene. Which is weird because this makes a 'misty cave' or strong sunrays a really hard - and CPU intensive - task

Yes, this is a CPU-intensive task, but I can't see any other way to create a good quality volumetric object, apart perhaps through some form of "fake" solution that Jordan mentions. No idea though what could that possibly be.

Terragen seems more like a hobbyist tool with great results. It needs serious work. I think a development team, and business team are really in order if the company wants to be taken serious by investors and artists. The effort doesn't seem to really be there, and a decade of needed features are ignored for in-house goals which sometimes are not needed or asked for by consumers.

I'm not sure if I wholy agree with you on that Jordan. The development and business team part. I am afraid that with these in place, Planetside would gradually evolve into a subsription-only nonsense like some stupid companies do. And once that happens, I simply won't be able to afford it...

Also, I think you are wrong in saying that TG is not taken seriously. We both know that there are many guys around here who are renowned artists. Of course - I'm not sure what their opinion of the software is. But, well, they use it... Though I generally agree that there is a room for much improvement (read; populator + documentation).

[KlausK]

hi, first of all it would be best to tell us which version you are using. So we are somehow on the same page here.

Second, "First time user" sounds like not having spend a lot of time in the software or here in the forums.
Sad but true, it does not reveal itself as easy as one might hope. And the Documentation / Wiki leaves lot to be desired.

Okay, what I think might help:

Trying to move the camera using the mouse is very erratic and tilts the horizon for reasons unknown to me, and thus is unusable. And every time I change the view, the camera switches to 'perspective view'. So again and again I have to click 'copy to current render camera'. Why can't we just live change the render camera? My view was also gone after a 'save+exit'. 'Make new camera from current view' would also be very helpful.

How do you move the Camera in the viewport? Mouse? The controls in the upper right? Keys?
The horizon only tilts when "Free Orbit Mode" is enabled (one of the buttons under the 3D Preview).

Turn off Dynamic Layout. You have to do this every time you open a new session. Then set up your 3D Preview with the "Enable - Disable" buttons for Shaders, Atmosphere and Lighting. It now always uses this kind of rendering previz while your in the scene and change the main tab. The RTP is incomplete and a work in progress (which is true for some more sections in the software, sadly).

You do not have to click the button to "Copy this view to current render camera". just hit the "Enter" key. That does it.
Use more than one camera in you scene to connect to the Render is the way to go. "Make new camera..." would be helpful indeed.

Check out the "Mouse and Key settings" in the "Help" menu.

Anything else - that`s the way it is. Take it or leave it.
CHeers, Klaus

[WAS]

To be blunt, I find it seriously unfair to post something that is two years old, just like that, out of the blue instead of saying this outright. Especially, amidst many new users joining the forums. Hmmm...

I think what could hold back new users is not so much the difficulty, but more the user experience.

Well, that is true of every single program. However, when you start using it, you gain experience.

I am sorry if I hurt someone's feelings but it seems that people often behave as they expect others to serve them ready solutions, while doing no research or learning on their own. Many of the guys around here have started their carrer not even knowing what a "mask" was. And they did not complain. Instead they sat down and carried on with their studies. One cannot count on having a pro-level experience just after a month of using a piece of software.

Trying to move the camera using the mouse is very erratic and tilts the horizon for reasons unknown to me, and thus is unusable. And every time I change the view, the camera switches to 'perspective view'. So again and again I have to click 'copy to current render camera'. Why can't we just live change the render camera?

I have never experienced anything weird while moving the camera, when did you encounter something like that?

Also, there is a good reason for the camera to switch to perspective view - in many cases you want to take a look into an area keeping, at the same time, your rendering POV intact.

What one can do though, is to have several cameras (I usually end up with three) that let you look around. Take a note that extra cameras always stay exactly where you moved them.

To create a simple mist or haze layer you can only use clouds it seems. There isn't really an other option to add mist to a scene. Which is weird because this makes a 'misty cave' or strong sunrays a really hard - and CPU intensive - task

Yes, this is a CPU-intensive task, but I can't see any other way to create a good quality volumetric object, apart perhaps through some form of "fake" solution that Jordan mentions. No idea though what could that possibly be.

Terragen seems more like a hobbyist tool with great results. It needs serious work. I think a development team, and business team are really in order if the company wants to be taken serious by investors and artists. The effort doesn't seem to really be there, and a decade of needed features are ignored for in-house goals which sometimes are not needed or asked for by consumers.

I'm not sure if I wholy agree with you on that Jordan. The development and business team part. I am afraid that with these in place, Planetside would gradually evolve into a subsription-only nonsense like some stupid companies do. And once that happens, I simply won't be able to afford it...

Also, I think you are wrong in saying that TG is not taken seriously. We both know that there are many guys around here who are renowned artists. Of course - I'm not sure what their opinion of the software is. But, well, they use it... Though I generally agree that there is a room for much improvement (read; populator + documentation).

You worrying about a subscription is a personal opinion and really irrelevant to the things TG needs. And this is a huge problem with TGs community. Lol they feel like it's theirs and don't want change where it *may* or *may* not effect them. The fact you need to say that speaks volumes. It's like when Ulco or Martin or someone comes in and say they are fine with the way things are when a suggestion or idea is made. Matt's personal relationships in the community clearly drive him more than professionalism. And it didn't used to be that way when the rest of PS staff was around and active.

[N-drju]

Please read my post again Jordan. Where exactly did I say that I am "fine with the way things are"? In fact, I said that documentation should be filled and that there is much room for improvement. Looks like you have never read my "feature request" posts. Just look it up!

I am not against changes. What I am against are accusations disguised as kissing emojis...

And what exactly is wrong with a software developer caring for customer relations? If more software developers (why, software publishers especially) would listen to their customers, the digital world would have been a better place...