Eithical Debate: Barcoding People: Social Nescity or Orwellian Nightmare?

Started by Cyber-Angel, November 09, 2007, 08:59:46 am

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efflux

Agree with child@play and the book Brave New World is amazingly ahead of it's time. Even more so that 1984.

Inscrutable

I love the smell of paranoia in the morning...

Seriously, the idea that governments are purposefully trying to keep education levels low in order to control the populace is a little alarmist.  W need to keep a clear differentiation between "educated" and "informed".  It's actually in any government's interest to increase the level of education if it wants to compete economically in the modern world.  That's why (whether you likeit or not) most western Governments are seeking to invest heavily in education.  Whether or not plans put in place by Governments to improve the level of education work or not is another issue entirely (and influenced by a huge range of social and economic factors).

On the other hand there is the level of information provided.

Guess what, an educated person is just as likely (or arguably more likely) to come to the wrong conclusion or judgement if they are given the wrong information.  The level of information a government provides is far more a) controllable by said government and b) far shorter term in scope (so is dependent on the specific elected government - that it to say subject to change following an election).  This is what's known as "dumbing down" in the UK at least.

On the main issue of discussion here, I astually have to wade in on the other side of the fence here and say that to be absolutely honest I don't really have a problem with the concept of a government holding my DNA records as such (as has already been stated here, they already hold a vast amount of data on me already).  The problem is that htere need to be absoultely cast-iron systems in place to ensure that the information is not mis-used and that errors aren't made in using it for the correct purposes.

For example, personal data held by the governmetn should never be used to ascertain how you voted but I think there is a use for a national DNA register in cighting crime.  Problem here, though, is tha I don't really want to be locked up for a murder I didn't commit just because someone stole some of my hair to contaminate their crime scene, of just because I happened to walk through the scene two weeks before the murder and left a trace.  In short, the problem isn't the sotrage of such date, its in its use.

As a closing point, regarding the comment someone made about electronic banking - just think, would you rather have your details stored by the government or by a company to whom your information is a commercial comodity?

Rant over!

rcallicotte

@Inscrutable -  Of course, this theory is clearly sensible.  But, power and greed for power has been known to suck the braincells right out of a person's head (never mind, heart, if they had one to begin with).
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

efflux

Information is misused. I have libelous false information held about me by private security firms which means I get banned from stores - this is how I know they have the info. As far as they are concerned I am a suspected criminal but of course they have no evidence whatsoever just libelous info and they are in breach of the freedom of information act. They can just lie about not having any information about you. The UK government has given private firms absurd powers of abuse of information and you can't ever know what they hold about you. They are above the police who would be held accountable if they held info like this.

Governments have no right to hold information on you beyond basics of what is needed to run society. Anything beyond this is making the assumption that you are a potential criminal. The worst criminals are those making these rules.

If governments educated and informed everyone then they'd be out of a job.

How many people know why Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait or why we invaded Iraq? There are real reasons for both these things but hardly anybody knows them.

Both the UK and US governments can hold you imprisoned for no proper reason and without any trial. This is a total abuse of human rights and there are other examples.

When any incident occurs like a terrorist attack governments first use of this incident is to control it's own people because they then have an excuse to do it. This is always what happens. We can't go around telling other people about "freedom and democracy" when these things are abused in our own countries.

child@play

Quote from: efflux on November 19, 2007, 02:58:44 pm
When any incident occurs like a terrorist attack governments first use of this incident is to control it's own people because they then have an excuse to do it. This is always what happens. We can't go around telling other people about "freedom and democracy" when these things are abused in our own countries.


amen brother, sad but true
perfection is not when there's nothing more to add, it's reached when nothing more can be left out


rcallicotte

I mentioned some of this in the cave 360 post, but this is a more appropriate forum.

Knowledge != understanding.  Profound respect for the way things work does not equate to wisdom.  I understand these do not need to be mutually exclusive, but the rate the world is going a certain phenomenon is bound to take place.  Here is what I think it is -

People are going to reach a universal state of not really thinking, but instead reacting to the overflow of knowledge that we're deluged by.  This dangerous state will lead someone in power to control our thinking via media.  The only way to break this is to simply take time to think about what we are doing with our lives and shut this constant barrage of info out.  Contemplation, though difficult sometimes, is the only necessary step to breaking this menace.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Cyber-Angel

Wisdom comes form knowledge that come form learning, not all who have attended knowledge have learning and not all who have learning have wisdom and with out wisdom there can be no enlightenment it is a journey that can not be rushed slowness of action dose not equate to slowness of  mind, that is the natural order of things  every thing in it correct order at its correct time and place.

Understanding comes after knowledge for not all who have attained knowledge will have understanding.

The attainment of order in cohesive structures is the iconoclast of first debate in philosophical rhetoric focused on the principle that ordered systems are more stable than those that are chaotic, as a chaotic system cannot be sustained as it will by some means collapse (Historical examples would be: Mesopotamia, Babylonia and  Rome).

In this way then it can be said that the attainment of a social order is by definition the layering of levels of control on the order, this only becomes a danger when the control becomes greater then the needs of the system so conversely leads to imbalance leading to man's inhumanity to man.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

child@play

wise words my friends. but we are not lost, as long as there are people discussing political/philosophical matters in public.

i think one of the problems is, where have the philosophers gone, take ancient greece for an example, philosophical schools have been well respected. all it is being cut down on 'productivity' nowadays, and your 'forced' to think in a way that is unhealthy.
the term 'luck' has been perverted beyond any recognition, and everyone is playing the big money game. like you said, it's about time to contemplate.
perfection is not when there's nothing more to add, it's reached when nothing more can be left out


Cyber-Angel

There will always until the ends of this earth (Five or so billion years) be times where some one some where will try oppress the will of the people, no matter how evolved or enlightened we maybe come, there will always be an intrinsic element in one individual (One is enough) to spark some thing within people who agree with what they have to say, and in this fashion can spark a revolution with far reaching consequences for humanity, the effects of Adolf Hitlers vision are still been felt today and maybe for generations to come.

There are answers to almost every question that can be posed, though at first it seems as if it will never be answered; this is simply due to a lack of knowledge but do not be fooled by the assertion "Ignorance is bliss" as it is one of the most fundamentally dangerous assertions ever made.

From a sociological standpoint finding what is true (Requires Priori Knowledge) about how best for governmental entities to manage there populations under threat or the perception thereof requires an understanding of the past (Comparative History) as it relates to behavior of social groups over time (Comparative Anthropology) and form these can derive models based on empiric data (Comparative Statistics) to show where things have been in the past, how events of the past shaped the present and following current and historical trends try and predict behavior trends into the near future (Futurology).

Discussion on what a government could perceivably do (Such as mandating the use of Bar codes be placed on people) is needed to warn of what could happen given a set of circumstances and oversight of those who govern us is critical, after all what kind of world will we leave to our children and those generations that will surely come after them?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel             

efflux

There was an interesting thread started on the Modo forum. Some guy from Iran had come on to say how great Modo was but he was using cracked software. Many people jumped right in to totally condemn this guy before thinking about the situation. The US government has an embargo on Iran so no US software companies can sell their products in Iran. This means that computers all have pirated software. Even Iranian television, where this guy worked. They have no choice but to pirate software. The Modo forum is totally unmoderated and sometimes this can be bad but in this instance it was interesting because it descended into huge arguments about religion, mostly between people from rich western counties. The assumption was also made that this guy from Iran was a practicing muslim but he hated religion. It was very revealing about the total narrow minded ignorance of people from supposed educated countries.