I would like to know what people think about the following:
There is debate in some countries such as the UK, US and Australia about the introduction of Biometric ID Cards and Passports in this post 9/11 world that we find our selves in today that seams to be the most unstable its been since the Cold War: these are on thing and the pros and cons of these have been well stated in the media and they are not really the concern here the issue before us is the potential for use of mandatory bar-codes been placed on people for the purposes of bureaucracy, security and other uses stated or not.
I am not saying that this will ever happen...But what if it did what might the world be like in that kind of future? As some one with an interest in both social anthology and futurology I am interested in the discourse on this matter.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
I am against the intended DNA gathering from all UK citizens. It is against human rights. The UK government are breaching human rights in several other ways now as well.
yea I think its kinda of creepy...but it would be cool to have a barcode on my neck ;)
Yeah, I agree. While this stuff sounds cool, it is creepy when you think about it. If a national DNA database is created in the UK, I'm going to try my best to emigrate. Ireland is a cool country to go to - it's the richest country in Europe now, and it produces a significant proportion of the world's computers and related-devices. I can't see the point of the introduction of a national DNA database in such a small country...
If people in government weren't so concerned about controlling people, it might be useful. Medical matching for organs and catching crooks are two great reasons for DNA. The problem, as with everything man tries, is that we have limits of wisdom as far as who is given this power. Take the present administration in the U.S. There are even concerns among some that President Bush might try to prevent the next election. That's how far from the so-called freedom he preaches we've gone. Media might as well just admit they're government controlled and the wealthy might as well quit pretending everyone thinks they're nice.
The "free" world is not so free, which is the ultimate result of lack of real wisdom in leaders across the world. Most leaders, if not all, are more concerned about getting their wealth than taking care of the people in their "care". For these reasons, DNA libraries of every citizen are nothing more than an attempt to treat us like cattle.
DNA database creation is one thing- how about RFID tagging? Sounds unlikely at the moment, but then how likely did the prospect of a docile populace submitting wholesale to the removal of basic freedoms seem, say, in the 60's? The sort of crap people have willingly submitted to in the last 6 years (government secret reviews of individual's library records and book purchases, without judicial oversight or subpeona, as an example) would have engendered wholesale revolution 40 years ago; today, people just roll over and blindly trust to the worms in power.
A healthy democracy requires an educated, skeptical electorate. This country has slipped badly on both those requirements in the last half-century. I'm afraid I am extremely pessimistic about the future of individual liberties.
Quote from: Harvey Birdman on November 09, 2007, 04:17:58 PM
A healthy democracy requires an educated, skeptical electorate.
and that's part of the problem. it's easy to control people who live in fear (of terror, e.g.) and cut down freedom and information more and more. less educated and informed masses are easier too control too. and the circle goes on and on, until we end up having RFID chips in our heads ( there are 'plans' to insert those chips in newborns) and eating drugs spread by our government. brave new world ...
That's interesting, since people who graduate from high school has been on the decline in the United States.
"THX 1138" was closer to the truth than people realize.
Quote from: child@play on November 09, 2007, 04:27:44 PM
...cut down freedom and information more and more. less educated and informed masses are easier too control too.
Sounds like 1984. This is not a world i want to be in. If any government implements such a method i'll gladly move away from that to another country.
It would be cool to be part of no country, just not have a nationality.
I know you know this, but this is another definition for anarchy. In essence, it wouldn't be hard to find a group of people interested in this idea. But, then...then what?
Quote from: Will on November 10, 2007, 07:56:08 PM
It would be cool to be part of no country, just not have a nationality.
It seems to me that we've forgotten that a kind of "barcode" already exists in the U.S. It goes by the name of our social security number. When it boils down to it our SSN is the government's ultimate way to keep track of every U.S. citizen. I'll admit it has no where near the implications that a potential DNA database has or that implanted RFID chips have, but the concept is similar. Personally I find that kind of government involvment in everyday life slightly scary. A world where our comings and goings are easily tracked by a chip in my arm is extraordinarily disturbing. Citizens of every nation must remember to not let themeselves be terrorized into submission, remember our world, as dangerous though it may be, is not as dangerous as CNN would have you believe. Your next door neighbor is probably not a terrorist and there is not a squad of secret police coming to your house tonight to drag you off to a secret prision. We as informed citizens must remember this and refuse to intimidation and fear. Government in recent years has taken needed steps to ensure security, but once the threat has been reasonably reduced, I'd say that a level of normalcy should be resumed. Big Brother has no place in my life.
SSN's i am not worried about. It's having a chip shoved up my rear pardon the pun. I can honestly say at the moment i do not feel any of my rights are taken away all. I feel fine. ;D Besides i can't imagine the US becoming that 1984 setting.
True it would be anarchy but on a much smaller scale I'm not saying an entire civilization of people, just be me, Will: a renegade CG artist with a chip on his shoulder and just his trusty laptop to survive in a cruel and unforgiving world. It would be a assassin thriller with a Star Wars era Harrison Ford playing the part of me.
electronic banking brings life somewhat close to this sort of concept. All that information is stored away into databanks, t is pretty easy to keep tabs o people through electronic means.
Agree with child@play and the book Brave New World is amazingly ahead of it's time. Even more so that 1984.
I love the smell of paranoia in the morning...
Seriously, the idea that governments are purposefully trying to keep education levels low in order to control the populace is a little alarmist. W need to keep a clear differentiation between "educated" and "informed". It's actually in any government's interest to increase the level of education if it wants to compete economically in the modern world. That's why (whether you likeit or not) most western Governments are seeking to invest heavily in education. Whether or not plans put in place by Governments to improve the level of education work or not is another issue entirely (and influenced by a huge range of social and economic factors).
On the other hand there is the level of information provided.
Guess what, an educated person is just as likely (or arguably more likely) to come to the wrong conclusion or judgement if they are given the wrong information. The level of information a government provides is far more a) controllable by said government and b) far shorter term in scope (so is dependent on the specific elected government - that it to say subject to change following an election). This is what's known as "dumbing down" in the UK at least.
On the main issue of discussion here, I astually have to wade in on the other side of the fence here and say that to be absolutely honest I don't really have a problem with the concept of a government holding my DNA records as such (as has already been stated here, they already hold a vast amount of data on me already). The problem is that htere need to be absoultely cast-iron systems in place to ensure that the information is not mis-used and that errors aren't made in using it for the correct purposes.
For example, personal data held by the governmetn should never be used to ascertain how you voted but I think there is a use for a national DNA register in cighting crime. Problem here, though, is tha I don't really want to be locked up for a murder I didn't commit just because someone stole some of my hair to contaminate their crime scene, of just because I happened to walk through the scene two weeks before the murder and left a trace. In short, the problem isn't the sotrage of such date, its in its use.
As a closing point, regarding the comment someone made about electronic banking - just think, would you rather have your details stored by the government or by a company to whom your information is a commercial comodity?
Rant over!
@Inscrutable - Of course, this theory is clearly sensible. But, power and greed for power has been known to suck the braincells right out of a person's head (never mind, heart, if they had one to begin with).
Information is misused. I have libelous false information held about me by private security firms which means I get banned from stores - this is how I know they have the info. As far as they are concerned I am a suspected criminal but of course they have no evidence whatsoever just libelous info and they are in breach of the freedom of information act. They can just lie about not having any information about you. The UK government has given private firms absurd powers of abuse of information and you can't ever know what they hold about you. They are above the police who would be held accountable if they held info like this.
Governments have no right to hold information on you beyond basics of what is needed to run society. Anything beyond this is making the assumption that you are a potential criminal. The worst criminals are those making these rules.
If governments educated and informed everyone then they'd be out of a job.
How many people know why Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait or why we invaded Iraq? There are real reasons for both these things but hardly anybody knows them.
Both the UK and US governments can hold you imprisoned for no proper reason and without any trial. This is a total abuse of human rights and there are other examples.
When any incident occurs like a terrorist attack governments first use of this incident is to control it's own people because they then have an excuse to do it. This is always what happens. We can't go around telling other people about "freedom and democracy" when these things are abused in our own countries.
Quote from: efflux on November 19, 2007, 02:58:44 PM
When any incident occurs like a terrorist attack governments first use of this incident is to control it's own people because they then have an excuse to do it. This is always what happens. We can't go around telling other people about "freedom and democracy" when these things are abused in our own countries.
amen brother, sad but true
I mentioned some of this in the cave 360 post, but this is a more appropriate forum.
Knowledge != understanding. Profound respect for the way things work does not equate to wisdom. I understand these do not need to be mutually exclusive, but the rate the world is going a certain phenomenon is bound to take place. Here is what I think it is -
People are going to reach a universal state of not really thinking, but instead reacting to the overflow of knowledge that we're deluged by. This dangerous state will lead someone in power to control our thinking via media. The only way to break this is to simply take time to think about what we are doing with our lives and shut this constant barrage of info out. Contemplation, though difficult sometimes, is the only necessary step to breaking this menace.
Wisdom comes form knowledge that come form learning, not all who have attended knowledge have learning and not all who have learning have wisdom and with out wisdom there can be no enlightenment it is a journey that can not be rushed slowness of action dose not equate to slowness of mind, that is the natural order of things every thing in it correct order at its correct time and place.
Understanding comes after knowledge for not all who have attained knowledge will have understanding.
The attainment of order in cohesive structures is the iconoclast of first debate in philosophical rhetoric focused on the principle that ordered systems are more stable than those that are chaotic, as a chaotic system cannot be sustained as it will by some means collapse (Historical examples would be: Mesopotamia, Babylonia and Rome).
In this way then it can be said that the attainment of a social order is by definition the layering of levels of control on the order, this only becomes a danger when the control becomes greater then the needs of the system so conversely leads to imbalance leading to man's inhumanity to man.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
wise words my friends. but we are not lost, as long as there are people discussing political/philosophical matters in public.
i think one of the problems is, where have the philosophers gone, take ancient greece for an example, philosophical schools have been well respected. all it is being cut down on 'productivity' nowadays, and your 'forced' to think in a way that is unhealthy.
the term 'luck' has been perverted beyond any recognition, and everyone is playing the big money game. like you said, it's about time to contemplate.
There will always until the ends of this earth (Five or so billion years) be times where some one some where will try oppress the will of the people, no matter how evolved or enlightened we maybe come, there will always be an intrinsic element in one individual (One is enough) to spark some thing within people who agree with what they have to say, and in this fashion can spark a revolution with far reaching consequences for humanity, the effects of Adolf Hitlers vision are still been felt today and maybe for generations to come.
There are answers to almost every question that can be posed, though at first it seems as if it will never be answered; this is simply due to a lack of knowledge but do not be fooled by the assertion "Ignorance is bliss" as it is one of the most fundamentally dangerous assertions ever made.
From a sociological standpoint finding what is true (Requires Priori Knowledge) about how best for governmental entities to manage there populations under threat or the perception thereof requires an understanding of the past (Comparative History) as it relates to behavior of social groups over time (Comparative Anthropology) and form these can derive models based on empiric data (Comparative Statistics) to show where things have been in the past, how events of the past shaped the present and following current and historical trends try and predict behavior trends into the near future (Futurology).
Discussion on what a government could perceivably do (Such as mandating the use of Bar codes be placed on people) is needed to warn of what could happen given a set of circumstances and oversight of those who govern us is critical, after all what kind of world will we leave to our children and those generations that will surely come after them?
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
There was an interesting thread started on the Modo forum. Some guy from Iran had come on to say how great Modo was but he was using cracked software. Many people jumped right in to totally condemn this guy before thinking about the situation. The US government has an embargo on Iran so no US software companies can sell their products in Iran. This means that computers all have pirated software. Even Iranian television, where this guy worked. They have no choice but to pirate software. The Modo forum is totally unmoderated and sometimes this can be bad but in this instance it was interesting because it descended into huge arguments about religion, mostly between people from rich western counties. The assumption was also made that this guy from Iran was a practicing muslim but he hated religion. It was very revealing about the total narrow minded ignorance of people from supposed educated countries.