off-lease workstations

[Dune]

Doug (Zaxxon) reminded me of the existence of refurbished workstations, and I never actually thought about it. But it seems you can get a lot of value for money. So I'm getting enthusiastic about such a second-hand rig. Some seem to be never, or hardly used. Upgrading from a Quadro K4000 to a 12GB Quadro K6000 for only around €300 seems interesting too, because I see prices of thousands of euros for such cards. And I never heard of Quadro cards    But they seem specialized for rendering.

I found this one, e.g., among a lot of rigs, for around €1600.

Intel Xeon 20Core E5-2673V4 2.3-3.5GHz with HT 40 Threads
64GB DDR4 (128GB for €200 more)
180GB Intel Enterprise SSD + bracket
4TB WD Enterprise SAS Server Harddisk
nVidia Quadro K4000 3 GB with 1 x dvi and 2 x displayport (Quadro K6000 12GB for €340 more)

Win 10 Pro

Does anyone have any ideas about this, and what would be a good choice? What to look for specifically...

[N-drju]

I think this might be a bit too little for your needs processor-wise.

You mention a Xeon CPU, which has 40 threads. But the truth is, this processor's clock speed is way, way below AMD's 3950x or 5950x performance. Take a note that 3950x's lowest speed is 3.5GHz.

This being said, having more buckets rendering at once does not necessarily mean the render is being done faster. Number of threads plus the clock speed should be considered.

Not sure about the GPU. But if it is an nVidia family and a 3GB card, the chances are it offers a decent power. In my experience, MSI is the only manufacturer I'd seriously avoid. Other GPUs are pretty effective and reliable.

I am afraid though that I may not be the right person to give any advice regarding any off-lease products. I have never leased or bought any pre-used thing in my life because I am a little afraid that things like that might be damaged or worn-off. 

[KlausK]

Quadro cards have enabled some special features (electrical and software) which are useful for CAD or other special software applications,
they have special drivers which provide presets for these apps. "Consumer" are more tuned to games.
In the early days you could tune Geforce cards to Quadros via soldering or software hacks. Because they were the same design.

Since Terragen does not use any of the features (atm) any GPU can provide there is not much to say against a Quadro.
But remember that the architecture of the card is already 7 years old!
In computer terms that is about as old as some of the times you depict in your work

I would not shelf out the extra money for that K6000 anymore, but go for a modern card.
Since you said in another thread that they are hard to find and buy just wait for them.
Any other application you seem to be using (Speedtree, ZBrush, Marvelous Designer or
Substance Painter (in the future perhaps)) will have features sometime that are not supported
fully on those cards. If that is not already the case.

For Terragen, Daz and Lightwave the Kepler Quadro is still good enough, of course.
I would be interested to know where Matt is going with GPU development.
He surely could advise you/us better regarding which card would be useful.

As I said in September in your thread about buying a new machine: more VRAM is better. So the 12gb are a good thing.
But not necessarily on this Quadro K6000 anymore. They are slow compared to more modern architecture.

If it is worth the money for you it sure is a useful upgrade. In two or three years time you will have to change the GPU, I think.

Regarding the computer specs itself, it will be a step forward to your present setup for sure.
If you look at the benchmark again you`ll see that the XEONs do quite well. But be sure to go for a dual XEON setup.
One cpu is quite slow compared to the AMD you were thinking about.  Remember that the XEONs render with a slower core speed,
not with the max speed given. This only is used for 1 one core use. So do not think your image will be rendered with 3.5ghz....
A lot of the i-7 cpus (from generation 7 onwards I`d say) are better for day to day work because of the higher clock speed
and the possibility of overclocking better (the K models at least) than the XEONs. But less cores might take more time to render.
Even with higher clocked speed. Again, look at the benchmark results.

I`d still go with AMD now if I were you, since you do not seem to upgrade very often.
"He who buys cheap buys twice" as they say...

CHeers, Klaus - (Sorry for this lenghty post)

[KlausK]

btw.: can you imagine when I bought my present rig I paid about 900 Euro for one of my cpu`s back then.
I can get it nowadays for as little as 99 Euro used... sigh.

CHeers, Klaus

[Dune]

Nothing to be sorry about, Klaus. I value any advice!! These Xeon's were new to me, so were the Quadro GPU's, and I read they are workhorses and reliable, but perhaps indeed not fast. I can get another Xeon built in for €800 more (totalling 80 threads). But you are both probably right to go for AMD after all, and one of the GTX cards, as prices will then be more comparable. And I'm not worried about a few hundred euros more. It's mainly for testing and building up setups in TG, and working smoothly in the other softwares you mentioned that I need this new machine. I have another rig for overnight rendering as well.

Thanks!

[WAS]

I thought i mentioned this a few times and even linked some in other posts. Definitely well worth it. Could get a 24c 32gb system for around 350 (US)

[zaxxon]

Since I'm named here, I might as well weigh in. Actually, I find myself on both sides of this discussion. I'm also looking to get another computer, however the question of when is becoming more difficult. I currently have an off lease HP workstation with dual zeons (2X6C), with 96 GB of RAM. It's run pretty much 24/7 for three years without an issue and done most of that with TG pushing 100% CPU usage and more often then not  pushing the 96 GB to the limit. There's something to be said about server quality hardware. But the new AMD offerings are just so darn sexy! Then the reality of how much a system of a 3950 and RTX card at 200% of retail (if you can even get the one you want), plus I know that I need more than 96 GB as I've already maxxed that out, so at least 128 GB at around $650. Not a fortune, but more then I really want to spend. I can buy an off-lease HP 840 with dual 12 (48 threads) core zeon's with 256 GB of RAM, 1 TB SSD, 4TB HD, Win 10 Pro, all water-cooled in a case designed by the BMW design folks along with HP engineers for around $1,600 US. At this point the hardware market is just crazy, and I've read numerous opinions of when and if it's going to settle out. Price increases on GPU's seem inevitable as between mining and high end gaming users the demand keeps growing. Whether I go with the current tech or or step back to the older workstation tech kind of depends on where the market goes, so I'm waiting for a while before buying. At this moment we're also waiting for Matt to reveal the GPU rendering/preview that will be implemented in TG. Hopefully it will allow for "out of core" rendering. The kind of detail that many of us use in TG will tax whatever GPU solution Planetside has in mind. Even a 12 GB VRAM card needs to have some real stingy optimization in a large environmental scene, and I think that will be the minimum needed to show a moderate level of foliage, not to mention TG's atmospheric brilliance. I am leaning towards another workstation and adding an RTX card of at least 12 GB as that would probably fit within my budget. Gaming benchmarks and even the TG benchmark aren't aimed at the kind of heavy duty, high poly and 8k textured scenes that TG is so good at. These are processor intensive tasks that workstations were meant to handle, so some balance has to be struck between the 'Ferrari' and the' Mac Truck' types of machines for the work at hand. For me TG is a heavy duty hauler, but I have a number of other apps that would certainly benefit from one of the newer, faster CPU's. So I'm going to wait for awhile and just dream of having both a Ferrari and a big Mac Truck!

[WAS]

Yeaah the way the market is right now is upsetting for someone like me on a serious budget in this expensive state. I got an RX 480 8GB Nitro+ for 260 (fall sale I believe, normally like 400 something) something new back in like 2017. The prices now on AMD cards are up well over 300%, and the crazy part, they're still cheap. According to my searches the RX 6800 XT is equivalent to the falgship I got, and it's running 1,000 - 1,149 from what I'm seeing. Insane.

Great post by the way, Zaxxon. Good logic on the current state right now.

[Dune]

Thanks for your additional input Doug! I just noticed that even more of the (new and sexy) hardware I put together in my preferred shop isn't available anymore, like the GPU, mobo and even the case. I should have purchased sooner.... or indeed wait longer.
These double zeons sound interesting (I can buy some nice setups here), but I wonder if these workhorses make as much noise as the trucks you compare it too. In the shop I visited there's no mention of coolers.
If the modern stuff keeps on being hard to get I might go for off-lease, but I am still very undecided for the same reasons.

Here's an offer I was made: Intel Xeon 20Core E5-2673V4 2.3-3.5Ghz - 40 Threads
+ second CPU + RizerCard > HT 80 Threads
128GB DDR4 (can be increased to 2TB if needed)
HP Z Drive Turbo 512 GB VVMe (I can stick my own 2TB drive in as well)
Optical DVDReWriter
Video ASUS GTX 1060 TURBO 6GB GDDR5
800W PSU, and some other stuff

This would cost me around €2350 but I have actually no idea how that compares to such a setup if purchased new.

[N-drju]

40 Threads + second CPU + RizerCard > HT 80 Threads

Hmmmm, lookit that. My 5950x got obsolete fairly quickly. 

Yes, it's true. You could say the supply dwindles by the minute. GPU market is a complete warzone now. Even the screens start to be problematic.

In case you are wondering, I got ASUS GTX 1030 4GB for my new rig. I hope this is somewhat reassuring. I believe we can forget about GTX 1600 series being available in the near future.

[zaxxon]

These are 'interesting times' in the hardware market for sure. As to how quiet the workstations are, well I guess that depends. More fans and heavy workloads inevitably means more noise. My current workstation can be a bit louder (lots actually) under load, especially when the RAM limit is hit and the HD paging starts (not to mention all the heat from all the cores at 100% driving those cooling fans!). SSD's really do make a big difference in 'noise' levels, and most workstations use quality bearing components which tend to be quieter (and last a lot longer). The efficiency of the case is equally important.  Last Black Friday I purchased World Creator 2 in anticipation of WC3. It's a GPU powered terrain generator and a pretty amazing piece of software. However, it was a non-starter on my 4 GB GTX 960 (at least for the level of detail I'm used to), on my 6 GB GTX 980ti running under win 10 (DX 12 is required - so no win 7 machines need apply) it works okay, but once again more VRAM is needed for what I want. To get high detail and still keep the speed up most of the folks using WC export out to an app that has Octane, Redshift or another hybrid GPU renderer that utilizes out of core rendering (in fact WC has partnered with Otoy's Octane on a subscription program). I've used Vray Next with 3DMax with some success on my 980ti, but only because it also goes 'out of core' to the system RAM. So a bigger graphics card becomes a necessity (and win 10 as well, and a reluctant goodbye to win 7). Matt's announcement of the upcoming GPU support is welcome though, and I did notice that 'normal maps will also be supported. To use GPU tech in TG will take some changes in workflow, as now LOD's and skydomes, as well as high poly meshes being reduced are necessitating strategies that are used in apps like Unity and Unreal, including normal maps. 8k textures, and even 4k textures will have to be rationed out, who knows about 'Easy Clouds'? The need for GPU processing is growing at a time when the hardware components are becoming more expensive: supply and demand, oh well. It's still possible to buy used 12 GB Quadro cards for under $400, and I may do this. While i would greatly prefer an RTX card (the currently affordable used Quadro's are non RT), if the current pricing and scarcity continues; to get the VRAM I need, that may be the only viable choice.  A few words on off lease equipment. In a prior life I managed several large auto and equipment lease portfolio's for a major Bank (don't hold that against me ). Typically an equipment lease (computers are equipment) allows the lessee to 'expense' all the lease payments, and the lessor also depreciates the asset down to 90% of the purchase value (leasing is a very profitable finance product). So a $12,000 workstation has a $1,200 buy-out for the lessee after lease term, or the lessee returns the computer (usually multiple computers) to the Bank (lessor). These computers usually end up in a "Re-certification Center" where they are 'cleaned' and tested and sometimes 'parted-out'. They are then resold based on the depreciated value plus additional re-certification labor costs and profit. Some of these computers were used for business, many for scientific and educational uses. The leases normally run for 2-3 years, so the level of obsolescence isn't huge at resale. Remember these are machines built on higher specs then gaming equipment and theoretically have a much longer life span. Sorry to ramble on, but this is how $12,000 machines become $1600 machines. I think we're all curious how this will shake out.

[N-drju]

These are 'interesting times' in the hardware market for sure. As to how quiet the workstations are, well I guess that depends. More fans and heavy workloads inevitably means more noise.

This is really subjective too. When I came to pick up my computer, the guy said "It is quite loud, I warn you". We ran TG and I couldn't hear a thing.  But he said this is already loud according to his own standards. I didn't mind.

As for the interesting times - indeed, I have never thought that computer hardware could ever be in short supply. Perhaps it indeed is covid-related.

I am still pretty convinced that one could get more speed and efficiency by having two Ryzen cores, rather than two Xeons of the type mentioned here. Let alone the threadripper series. That probably outclasses most (if not all) Intel CPUs.

[Dune]

  Yes, sound is very subjective, also depends on how deaf one is. I have one machine which is absolutely quiet, not a whisper (and I have very acute hearing), so when I switch on my working machine I get this fan whizz, and it seems very loud at first. After a few minutes I'm used to it. But I work in a small room, and if sound gets four times as loud all day, mmm.
I'm not into minutes in render speed difference (my fastest machine takes 14mins for the benchmark, so if I get under 5 or so, it's great), or extremely fast gaming, or a few hundred euro's more or less, so it's up to choices between availability, durability, modern sexyness and workability with modern software, and sound. I'll let it rest a while... but you've been very helpful in making me understand a bit more. Thanks!

[WAS]

What CPU do you you have now? The benchmark runs me 14 minutes on the Ryzen 5 2600. Compare that to 45 minutes on my A10 APU 4 core 8 threads. Still pretty happy with the upgrade but still want a new CPU soon.

[N-drju]

soon.