Native format support development?

[Stellar]

Hello I am currently researching procedural planetary, and space development with transitional environments for film.

I right now have been using many things such as particles and fluid effects in 3d applications to be able to work on projects that include many of the things I have seen here, and on youtube with tg2.

I must also express my disappointment's in an if, or continued discuss, from what I read on the website, of support for other 3d applications  . Natively being able to support a format would work wonders especially if these native formats include softwares that are used in film.

My reason for coming here, is purely selfish in a reason I wish to ask, how development on a possible FBX or 3ds max, and MB and MA format support would handle in native existence.

Looking at what I have seen to be a well right down wonderful program, I find issue with lack of support for probable programs that could very well use this program, as well as artists outside and inside my own work range that requires environments like these.

Planets that can transition from ground to space, full 3d scenes being able to export directly to programs specifically designated for work in FILM.

Maya versions 8 to 2008

3DS max versions 8 to 2008

Blender official release.

Cinema 4D latest releases.

As an animator my eyes and body wiggle a bit seeing the render capabilities, and terrain capabilities, and hopefully complete realitic transitional worlds being capable of full export to 3rd part 3d applications.

To be quite honest my full interest in asking this is also the development of a few game titles that can work around SLHL shaders in Autodesk Maya, and my full attention on film.

For FILM purposes I ask this the most, and must urge myself to ask, how development of these could progress if they were decided to be worked upon, allowing full lighting, and camera support for exports to 3ds max and maya would be such a great boost forward.

[JimB]

I've used Terragen for film for six years now, both the old 0.9, and now TG2, and am using it very heavily on current productions (straight TG2 renders are being happily accepted as Temp backgrounds for one film). Currently there are ways to get the base terrain file out to any other app that imports .ter or .lwo files (I use XSI and have a few ways of doing it). TG2 is not even a full Beta release yet, so I think it's a bit much to expect full export at this stage. Cameras and objects can be taken into TG2, and I'm sure any animation can be applied from another app provided you have the means to spit out .chan files. So far no one seems to have given that much thought. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting to see procedural environments exported from TG2, though (it's like asking for Maya shaders to work in XSI through FBX or Collada export). I personally have no problem just using the TG2 bg as just another element, or creating textures in TG2 for use in other 3D apps.

[Cyber-Angel]

Once the gold release comes out it really will be time to find out once and for all what the state of play as far as interoperability with other software platforms is concerned. What is Plantesides message and how do they intend to stay on message in so far as the end-user ecosystem is concerned?

Primary considerations would be (But not solely restricted to):


Develop an effective means of inter-artist communication in software over networks and the Internet (Long term goal) to allow effective communication and allow groups of artists to collaborate on projects with the aim of reducing artist isolation, increasing work flows, reducing production bottlenecks and artist down time and bringing in production deliverables under time and budget.

In addition to the promised ATI (Which is good as it keeps nice folks like US Congress and the EU Commission at bay just ask Microsoft!) there should also be at some latter time be an SDK which would allow the development of the requisite converters (sic) needed for Terragen to be compatible (format wise) with other software (No software is an island and all that) (You can say its like when you where a kid and you had to play nice with other kids in the sandbox, same thing just the software industry equivalent for the grown ups who use terms like Fiscal Responsibility, Market Uptake and Mortgage Sector Down Turn). 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thats my take on this any way we shall see what the industry reaction to TG2 is once it goes gold latter this year, but there is a danger right now and it is this; the longer the development cycle takes (Good for product stability and so forth which I advocate) the more things will have moved on in the industry in general and Terragen is in danger of been left behind Technically. What cannot be done today in software maybe in software in as little as eight months possibly sooner.

By way of example it is said that on the first Matrix there where FX shoots that where at the time of conception where considered technologically impossible and at the time of conception they where seven months latter at time of photography they became possible, and now modified versions of those techniques are used in motion pictures all the time where and when it is appropriate to do so.

If the early FX pioneers had not dared to try new things, we would not have had films such such as King Kong (1926), War of the Worlds (1953) or any of the  serials such as Flash Gordon (1936, 1938 and 1940 [Film Serials] (1954-55 [TV] or King of the Rocketmen (1949, Movie Serial) or any thing that came latter.

I know and realize that Planetside is small with limited resources sally forth as it where for those of us who did not let the wonder die in us when we ceased to be children and smile when such noted persons as Ray Harryhausen (A name I'm sure the carries wight with a great many animators here) are mentioned and know who they are.



Peace to all.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                                           

[DeathTwister]

Well I must say I am in agreement with what everyone has said overall, I would add support for XSI as well to your lists, but over all you said it just about right. And Angel is right by saying give them a chance to get the gold letter out and then see what there long term plan is if they have one. I know for me I need model and texture support in tgd2 soon or like you said be able to get these wonderful terrains out of tgd2 and into apps we can use to create film and video games like most of us are into I suspect.

This is an amazing program and it really is theres to win or lose in this industry. One thing I have noticed over all in Beta Dev.  The Companies that do not listen to the Artists or their base people, then the Company does not usually seem to make it to far and WILL FAIL every time I have seen, so lets see how much they listen to us, and that will show me at least how far I can expect tgd2 to go.

  But we do need to let them get th final Beta full version out the door first before we beat the baby and the bathwater up yet ROTFL lol. But these are all very important and well said points by everyone one of you guys and I am in total agreement. having said all that, Dam I sure love playing in TGD2 and sure hope they do step up to the bar for us, hell with them I want it 4 me /winks /chuckles........

And in closing I agree this is the very first App I have ever seen where you can go from the moon to the earth with no film compositing at all, and that by itself is a very major breakthrough in the film industry and I for one hope they do step up and work with us more in these areas. We can only hope Oh Obywon...

[Oshyan]

As we have discussed several times before on the forums we do intend to significantly improve import/export support in the future. This won't be possible until after the initial "gold" release, but we will certainly continue supporting TG2 after that release, and improvements in interchange with other applications should be a part of future updates.

It should be made clear however that the approaches to data exchange that we will focus on will be aimed at the use of TG2 as a rendering application in itself, not simply as a data generator for other renderers. TG2's heavy use of proprietary procedurals and rendertime displacement makes full data export a virtual impossibility, and TG2's rendering engine is uniquely and particularly suited to rendering of highly realistic displacement-based full planets and outdoor environments of every kind. It would be a waste of time and the unique value of TG2 for us to try to support a workflow that involves primary rendering of terrain or atmospherics in another application.

Object rendering is of course not TG2's forte and that will remain so. It is the object rendering and animation strengths of other applications that are of primary interest in creating effective workflows for TG2 collaboration. So import and export of camera, lighting and other significant non-geometric scene data will probably be an initial priority. Where geometry export is concerned, the detail level will always be necessarily less than TG2 and textures will likely not be exported, or if they are they will be in a significantly degraded form. Exported geometry and/or textures should be used for shadow casting, object intersection and occlusion, an general scene matching, but not primary rendering. The intent would be that TG2's rendered output would then be composited with the output of other applications to form the final render.

Additional functions to support this workflow may include "layered" rendering, i.e. separate shadow, lighting, and other passes, output as individual images (or perhaps as single layered files, e.g. PSD or TIFF). With this functionality and export of stand-in quality geometry, an effective workflow should be easily possible.

- Oshyan

[DeathTwister]

Hay Oshyan How ya doing mate?

  Wow that is great and fantastic, except  for a couple of things.  in order to keep us inside this engine we need to be able to bring our models inside the tegd2 framework pure and simple.  So if we cannot get a Terrain file with shaders files out, or fies from other apps like mesh in that us Creators/Artists created and design Engineers designed what do you propose most of us do then? TGD2 is so much more powerful then PlanetSide realizes I think and should really listen to us more is what I think. /beams a smile

  We seem to see features for our use that you guys have not thought out yet or something. But I tell you what my friends you have not to far from being able to bring models into the engine as here's a good example with a Daz model for starters with a very tuff work around, but is doable for the moment.


  There is a limit as to how many polly's I can bring in and render and have in any given scene, like I cannot bring a Dragon and say a hi end giant spider in yet to render, as the rendering engine crashes I think, but when the new release is out I will try re-rendering it, but all you have to do is fix a few features that are bugs right now in the engine and that would suffice us for now until you can get to our needs, we do understand it takes time, we just want you to listen to our needs if you want to not only keep your client base but make it grow. Right now on Renderosity  people have left tgd2 by the hundreds it seems as almost no one in using it right now.  Hopefully when it does get the release we can get the Magic back into everyone, but these are issues I hear all the time, even if panetside does not.  What I do love and no way you can do it outside of tgd2 is go from the Earth to the Moon with no camera shifts or compositing at all, strait shooting, so how many plants you see in Space? none, how many Space ships? Millions lolol So we need support just as much with models as the rendering and water fixes. Maybe now is a good time to hire more programmers to get on these other features we need? That is what I would do if I ran the Company and get that puppy done and out the door. and believe it or not I think you really are only a few weeks from giving us someting a bit more to work with.  But hay I love this program s I am hunkered down and see what the long haul gives me with you guys, ya got my duckets /smiles.......

DT

[Oshyan]

We're aware of the issues with importing complex models and they are a separate, though related, problem. As we have said before that support will also be improved in the future. But there will always be objects that would be better rendered in another application. The appropriate workflow in that case would be to render out a TG2 background and, if necessary, export simplified geometry for shadow casting in your object renderer. If the object is reflective you'd want to render an environment map out of TG2 instead, so that the reflection would be accurate, but the principle is the same.

As for hiring additional programmers, I'm afraid it's just not in the budget. We're a small, privately held company and not interested in taking investors or venture capital, so we have to work with somewhat limited funds at times. It means we get to decide exactly how the software is developed (within our budget), but it also means funds can be tight. It's a trade-off.

- Oshyan

[DeathTwister]

Hay bro,

  You working Late since your in the North Bay area  /winks,,

As for hiring additional programmers, I'm afraid it's just not in the budget. We're a small, privately held company and not interested in taking investors or venture capital, so we have to work with somewhat limited funds at times. It means we get to decide exactly how the software is developed (within our budget), but it also means funds can be tight. It's a trade-off.

wow do I hear you on that score, but we are at a point ourselves where we ave t do something and yes I know investors or venture capital does take freedom away from a company, so I do understand having the same delama with ours.

And I know you guys are working o stuff with the modeling and have it on the to do list, just don't et it get to far back on that back burner dude ROTFL, and I really would love to help in the beta team on the modeling area if I could get my fat butt through that crack in the door, ROTFL actually not fat any more.

I could be a huge asset I think to yaz. and if I had a good SDK for my programmer to look at we could maybe even help some that way as well, as I would love to help at some point. But need that SDK if can't be on a Beta testing team? /smiles and winks.  Haha I am not always a pain in the ass lololol...good hard worker though.

OK time for dinner bell and dogs pushing me away from computer telling it is time to feed them, so I calling it a day, have fun all, I'm sure all will be well by the end .
DT