Cut out the discussion of warez and pirated software, models, etc. here!

Started by gregsandor, May 11, 2008, 09:46:55 AM

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gregsandor

I've just read yet another post in praise of or facilitating theft of software, models, and other IP here.  Cut it out or you're going to wreck this place.

cyphyr

You sure? I don't think I've seen any such posts since I've been coming here. Many people do "advertise" their own work (trees, plants, even some software etc) but I don't think I have seen anybody trying to push warez here. Quite refreshing really.
Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

gregsandor

Quote from: cyphyr on May 11, 2008, 11:30:46 AM
You sure? I don't think I've seen any such posts since I've been coming here. Many people do "advertise" their own work (trees, plants, even some software etc) but I don't think I have seen anybody trying to push warez here. Quite refreshing really.
Richard


"... Most of the time I test the product out first either by using a demo or a pirated copy before i buy it to see if it can, in fact, improve my workflow."

"
i also get a pirated copy's before i buy my software 30days aint long enough to realy get to grips with the program or sometimes there so damn expensive!!! or sometimes i do abit of reverse engineering
i can asure you though that there are now pirated copys of terragen 2 there is though of terragen .9 im affraid i think the reason there are no pirate copys of terragen 2 is because
1 you have to buy terragen 2 deep to actually get the terragen 2 deep program
2 the terragen 2 keyfile is different from most security features such as hexagonal and dongles and spm systems
but its just a matter of time before a dishonest person puts terragen 2 deep up on warez-bb or demonoid

i think getting pirated copies is fine only if you buy the program after you thoroughly tested it. but in most cases this never happens.
heres a fact
68% of people who own adobe photoshop have got it illegally!!!!
"

" think it has to be with sharing the wealth so to speak but anyway lets not stray too far into the great pirate debate."

"I have a copy of poser as well, and if x would have posted the link, I would have downloaded it myself, so I don't think we're in a lot of trouble. "

"You got the wrong link. Our turtle is a Poser 5 object (hoplessly out of date...  )"

Mohawk20

Quote from: gregsandor on May 11, 2008, 11:39:29 AM

"I have a copy of poser as well, and if x would have posted the link, I would have downloaded it myself, so I don't think we're in a lot of trouble. "

"You got the wrong link. Our turtle is a Poser 5 object (hoplessly out of date...  )"

These two are from me, so I will react on these two only...
In this last quote you forgot I said "But you are right about the distributing, so I'll mail it..." This mailing was no distributing because it was his own object he had mailed to me. I only used it to test the bumpmap, not to use it in renders.

Besides the mailing issue, I agreed with you, but you conveniantly left that out. The out of date was a joke by the way, not a serious argument. In this case of the turtle I think you overreacted a little bit. Posting the TGO would have been wrong, you were right about that.
But A: besides that this was no distributing issue...
      B: what we mail eachother is none of your business to restrict.

That said, while the piracy issue is our own conscience, it might not be wise to speak about it freely on these forums.

Piracy laws vary per country. I live in the Netherlands. Law here states that I 'may not upload pirated copies, but there are no restrictions on downloading them'. As long as I don't use them commercailly, it's perfectly legal in my country.


But that is the last I will say about it, I will try not to mention it again...
Howgh!

gregsandor

Quote from: cyphyr on May 11, 2008, 11:30:46 AM
Many people do "advertise" their own work (trees, plants, even some software etc)

This is exactly why I wanted to start this discussion.  TG2 now has object capabilities for the first time, and we have an explosion of great models coming from users, putting out some really neat stuff.  By respecting the licenses of those models we can grow amount of models available to us and continue to encourage new ones. 

neuspadrin

Personally I don't see the problem in downloading a program to see its features and if you like the workspace.  Sometimes a video and demo images just arn't enough to know if it fits you.  That is, if they don't offer a free trial for 30 days or whatever.  Also some programs just ask too insane of a price for a non-commercial use.  Terragen is in a perfect area for me being a college student and wanting something fun to play around with as my personal toy.  However, I also enjoy playing in 3ds Max some, and Dreamweaver, and Photoshop. I've been teaching myself web development since I was 10, and quickly outgrew frontpage (ewww).  I then really had nowhere to go but these huge expensive programs that I wanted just to learn with not make money off... So maybe I found a copy somewhere for awhile...  However, first thing on getting to college I bought the Creative CS3 suite (yay college discounts for educational copies being a total of ~360 bucks).  Even then it was expensive but my parents helped pay for it and called it a birthday present.  As for 3ds Max, I usually use various demo copies and play around, but maybe once I can find a nice book (any suggestions anyone? for a complete beginner) or a decent course in it I might consider actually buying it, especially if I can find a decent educational price.

The main problem I see with software (from a younger student view), is the fact I want to learn all these programs that might be in my future, but its hard for me to actually learn when the price tag on these things is for huge corporate companies planning to make profits off the software, and our society says downloading the program for free even though I plan to have 0 profit on it is illegal.  It wasn't until college that I could even start looking at the educational prices and even then most of them are still a little outrageous for a college student.  Software companies really should encourage giving away their software free to educational purposes. Actually, Microsoft does exactly that with some of their software (wow, something Microsoft did that I like). I can get a copy of Visual Studio 2008 and such from them, though my school also offers it with my software package (that cost like 300 bucks for the latest version of office enterprise and 2003 version, norton enterprise, like 3 versions of windows xp, 2 versions of vista, visual studio 2008 and 2005, etc etc etc).

Anyways, I also don't see the point of this topic either, as warez, pirated software, and models hasn't ever been discussed until you started this topic.  There was one mention in a previous topic that mentioned he pirated software as a trial because no trial was offered and that was it.  But in my few months browsing these forums I can't recall a single other time someone has mentioned piracy or especially stealing models.  Every model I've seen offered is there work, offering it to us to use cause they are awesome (I especially <3 lightning).  And while people sometimes may forget where they got a model from and who by, they often will admit they forget for sure but can somewhat remember from where to help someone else find it so they can use it too and then also give credit.  I personally know some of the models in my library I have no clue who made them anymore, but I could easily search this forum for them and give them credit should I ever use them. 

One idea I would like to see is if that people who make models could please start leaving a .txt or a .pdf with their model (and preferably like if you have awesometree.tgo, make it awesometree.txt or .pdf), and inside just some instructions on how to leave credit (like a preferred name or a list of 2 names depending on what forum your on, etc)

rcallicotte

Regardless of personal feelings, stealing software is a crime and it can ruin your life, if you're caught.  That lifelong scar of your personal life aside, the place that Planetside has setup here has been warez-free.  If we want to keep this forum for a great place to come and learn as well as get some good models from time to time, let's scour the place of BS. 
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

gregsandor

QuoteOne idea I would like to see is if that people who make models could please start leaving a .txt or a .pdf with their model (and preferably like if you have awesometree.tgo, make it awesometree.txt or .pdf), and inside just some instructions on how to leave credit (like a preferred name or a list of 2 names depending on what forum your on, etc)

Good idea.  It could even include instructions for setting it up, info on scale, and even suggested shaders or other extras.

Njen

Quote from: Mohawk20 on May 11, 2008, 12:27:24 PM
Piracy laws vary per country. I live in the Netherlands. Law here states that I 'may not upload pirated copies, but there are no restrictions on downloading them'. As long as I don't use them commercailly, it's perfectly legal in my country.

I highly doubt that Dutch laws say it is completely ok to pirate software and use pirated software, even for personal use. Before you make such claims, I suggest you contact the Netherlands arm of the BSA:

http://w3.bsa.org/netherlands/

Also, think of it like this: You made some awesome software that is very popular. You release it for a fee per license agreement, and ten people pay for a license. A short time later you find out that ten thousand people are using a pirated version of your software, but they all think it's ok because it's for personal use. I highly doubt that you would be ok with people using your software that took you many, many hours to develop, and not pay you for it.

Show me any major piece of software that says it's ok to pirate it as long as it's for personal use only. You can be damned sure that if I wrote some software, and released it on a fee per license agreement that I would want everyone to pay for it whether they are using it for personal use or not. I think it's laughable that people think it's ok to use pirated software. Let's apply this thinking to other goods:

Books:
"Oh, I am only reading this book at home, for personal use, so it's ok to steal a copy and keep it at home"

Movies:
"I am only watching this movie at home, so I don't need to pay for it because it's a personal viewing, and no one else is going to see it"

Household items:
"I am using this office chair at home, so it's ok if I steal it. If I was using it in an office, I would pay for it though, honest"

I challenge you to contact the makers of the pirated software you use and tell them that it's ok to use their software because it's for personal use only, and see what kind of response you get. Because that's the bottom line, if you are afraid to tell the software maker that you are using a pirated version of their software, then you shouldn't be doing it.

It's really quite simple: pay for what you use. Full stop.

Njen

Quote from: neuspadrin on May 11, 2008, 12:51:22 PM
The main problem I see with software (from a younger student view), is the fact I want to learn all these programs that might be in my future, but its hard for me to actually learn when the price tag on these things is for huge corporate companies planning to make profits off the software, and our society says downloading the program for free even though I plan to have 0 profit on it is illegal.  It wasn't until college that I could even start looking at the educational prices and even then most of them are still a little outrageous for a college student.  Software companies really should encourage giving away their software free to educational purposes.

I want to be a F1 driver, but I can't afford an F1 car, so does that mean it's ok for me to steal one so I can learn how to use it until I get a job? Of course not. Making software programs like 3ds Max costs *a lot* of money, hence the price tag. Just because something is expensive, doesn't mean you have a right to use it illegally because you can't afford it, what a stupid argument.

If you have a cash flow problem, there are always legal solutions. Have you tried Blender? It's free. Sure it's not 3ds Max, but when you're 16 years old, you can't go out and buy a Ferrari as your first car because you don't have that kind of money at that age, so you start out with a cheap car.

Oh and boohoo, corporate companies are making profits on software they sell. There's nothing wrong with that! They make the product, they set the price. If you want to make your own 3D software, then you can price it as cheap as you want. Oh but hang on, how are you going to pay for all those many developers who are going to help you build it? Oh no, now you have to raise the price to cover your expenses...etc.

JimB

Software piracy is illegal. End of.

I worked in the games industry for over a decade (when you opened the box and had to install off multiple floppies) and it was well known that piracy ruined smaller companies in particular. I get incredibly pissed off when I hear the usual bleating and whining about prices, and "I need to check it out first. Honest, I'll buy it later....". Nearly every piece of software these days is accompanied by a user forum (ahem... look around), or you can request the end user license agreement from the maker prior to purchasing. Then there are reviews, and other fora where you can pose a question to others and see if it sounds like your cup of tea. And let's not forget the software that comes with a trial version, but if the s/w maker doesn't want to do so, tough luck.

There is no excuse to buy or use ripped off software.

If you don't like the price then don't buy it and buy something else. Dead simple. It's not a god-given right to have these things, just like it's not a god-given right to own a house. People work incredibly hard to make software, put their own money and time on the line, and anyone thinking it's okay to use rip offs is seriously misguided. Likewise, people work incredibly hard to buy the software (like me, for instance - one reason I get vexxed about this subject).

Here's one way to change things: Get politically active, step up to the plate, and lobby governments to make software either free or to limit the amount software can be sold for. Hmmm... does that sound stupid? Yup.

Alternatively, make your own software. Hang on, does that sound difficult? Guess what - it is! Now maybe you'd have a tiny inkling as to why software makers get so pissed off to see their apps freely passed around, taking the roof from over their heads in some cases.

Oh yeah; and helping to ruin the software company by feeding a demand doesn't help much either..... the software stops being made if they go bust or profits go out the window. Alternatively, the price has to go up to cover the losses. Ring any bells?

http://www.essaysample.com/essay/002116.html
http://www.siia.net/piracy/whatis.asp

added: it took a while to write that post, but I clearly mirror the opinions of others here.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

Oshyan

Fortunately there have been fairly few mentions of pirating, warez, etc. here and we would definitely like to keep it that way. As software developers ourselves we don't condone, much less encourage any kind of copyright infringement. What anyone does in private is their own business, but we do need to ask that people refrain from discussing illegal activities here, piracy included.

As far as our handling of the piracy problem, we feel that providing a truly free, not time-limited, not watermarked version is a great way to give those people who would otherwise pirate the program a chance to find out about how it works in the long-term. I think demos, being the standard approach, are fine, but it is reasonably legitimate that for complicated programs it can take longer than a short demo period to see how well it works for you. There is also the value of supporting those who are growing into serious artists and who can't yet afford expensive software. If we work to establish a good relationship with up-and-coming artists by helping them with free software (for example), I think it builds loyalty and inclines them to purchase our product if and when they become able and start to succeed with their work.

You guys can continue to discuss this topic, but please keep it civil and reasonable. The only two things that really matter for us are that you don't post or otherwise use this forum to share materials that are not yours, and that you also not discuss any such activities here. This discussion being a philosophical one is partly excempt from point 2.

- Oshyan

lightning

Quote from: neuspadrin on May 11, 2008, 12:51:22 PM

One idea I would like to see is if that people who make models could please start leaving a .txt or a .pdf with their model (and preferably like if you have awesometree.tgo, make it awesometree.txt or .pdf), and inside just some instructions on how to leave credit (like a preferred name or a list of 2 names depending on what forum your on, etc)
sorry guys i wont disccuss this again i keep on forgaeting that most of yous live in the usa where the copyright laws a realy strict down here in nz the laws are so backward you can get away with anything!!!
i already do this..........................

Will


"... Most of the time I test the product out first either by using a demo or a pirated copy before i buy it to see if it can, in fact, improve my workflow."


" think it has to be with sharing the wealth so to speak but anyway lets not stray too far into the great pirate debate."

The are my quotes, so I'll say that I have used pirated software because as a high schools student I make around 20 bucks a week. About 80% of that I make goes to pay for gas, so I can't afford to make mistakes in the software I purchase. So yes I have used pirated copys of software big woop, I either buy them later or get a extra copy from my parents work (they often have about a dozen licenses lying around). I used a copy of XSI for about two months before I forked up that cash to get the educational edition, I used PS for a semester before I could convince my parents to loan me the cash. I don't condone pirating but thats how its goes some people just can't throw cash around (I'm not implying that any of you do). Also I think my last quote basically was a preliminary attempt to stop a flame war lets try to keep it that way.
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

rcallicotte

For Students:

http://www.academicsuperstore.com/
http://www.studica.com/
http://www.trinity3d.com/store/Browse-by-Manufacturer-orderby0-p-1-c-260.html

Most major software vendors have demos as well as specials for students.


For Everyone:

http://www.nevercenter.com (Silo is inexpensive and brilliant)
http://www.luxology.com (Modo is cheaper than most and pretty good)
http://www.getpaint.net/
http://www.daz3d.com (from time to time have discounts on Modo or zBrush as well as other good software, including DAZ Studio, which is free)
http://www.purplus.com (cheap software of all kinds)
http://www.amazon.com (sometimes 3rd-party vendors give special discounts on graphics software)

Another way to get CS2 is to purchase Photoshop 6 (legitimately) and then get the upgrade version to CS2 or CS3 (legitimately) on eBay. 



So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?