Old Stuff

Started by efflux, November 05, 2008, 08:25:22 AM

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efflux

I was looking through stuff on my drive and decided to render this one bigger. It's an earlier state of a planet I called Red but I like the terrain in this without the redirect shader which I added later.

Post colour and shade work done in Lightzone.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/media/folder_178/file_1776100.jpg

Oshyan

Ahh, I miss your images 'round here. Any chance you'll be returning to full capacity soon? ;D

- Oshyan

efflux

#2
Hi Oshyan.

Most likely yes (eventually) but TG2 is part of a larger workflow of things I'm doing. I've bitten off way more than I can chew in all the apps I've been using but that's how you find the right ones. I'm cutting some out now.

I usually push apps to extreme then drop back some just so I know how far you can go. Hence more of the crazy stuff I did previously in TG2.

I was looking through my folders of TG2 and Mojo images. One thing that is very clear is that the TG images, including ones from the old Terragen, have atmosphere and mood lacking in the Mojo ones. However, the Mojo stuff has beautiful complex form and grand scales due to this variety of form but atmosphere is what creates the mood. The Mojo stuff is somehow empty. For example no rays like in this latest TG2 render. Lighting and shadows in Mojo are poor and unrealistic compared to TG2. Even although my Mojo renders vastly out number the TG2 renders, I prefer the TG ones. but it depends on your style of work. Atmosphere and lighting are of primary importance for me.

Where I live, atmospheres like in this render are commonplace yet it seems impossible to get near this in any other computer app except TG2.

If you look at landscape paintings, usually the most important part is the atmosphere and lighting. You can get this more painterly effect in TG2. It doesn't look CG the way other apps do.

So I'm considering moving away from the TG2 planetary scale and importing Mojo terrains where I can get what Mojo does best. Since I am designing Mojo planet terrain for export I can easily go back and export more terrain for the same TG2 setup without having to redesign it. It'll fit as though I just moved to another place on the planet. I find developing terrain on planetary scale very frustrating in TG2 but easy in Mojo.

I've tried importing Mojo terrains and it works great but I haven't finished any scenes yet. TG2 can import big heightfields.

As a side note, Blender now has some really cool atmosphere settings. This render is done in Blender with a Mojo terrain mesh import but you can see this terrain is very "Mojo" looking so I am planning on continuing using Mojo terrains in other apps.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_9/file_416976.jpg

The down side is this - Mojoworld is now working in Linux Wine and working superbly. TG2 was pretty good to begin with but after several updates the Windows and Mac versions are rendering way faster, often up to 4 or 5 times faster now. I don't know why this is. At worst, Most apps under Wine render a bit slower but not way slower.

I was going to sell my Mac and go pure Linux but now TG2 is working extremely well on my Mac G5 dual. My Windows system is never used now. My next computer will be a fast PC but I don't want to use Windows. I want to go 100% Linux since all my apps are now performing great under Linux. TG2 is now the only one that isn't so I'm not sure what to do. I really don't want to buy another Mac even although I prefer them to PC Windows.  I'm going to end up with an enormously powerful Linux system, using Blender, Mojo and Lightzone amongst others (audio software) but no TG2 performance unless it performs better on a new multi core Linux system but I don't know about that. For example it'll be 64 bit. Meshes from Mojo rendered in Blender like the one on the link will render in literally in seconds. As it stands, that render finished in well under a minute on a PIV so I'm sorted for building huge sets for animation which is my goal. There are all kinds of cool ways to composite stuff in Blender's node network. It's really a very cool app. Has anyone seen this:

http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/index.php/download/

I think this is really cool. MUCH better than the last Blender movie which was pretty poor in my opinion.

Oshyan

The performance issues may have something to do with the new multithreading. Try turning "max threads" in the Renderer Node to 1 or 0 and test against the default. Let us know if that seems to help.

- Oshyan

rcallicotte

@efflux - I agree with Oshyan about wanting to see you around here more as well as your creative images.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

efflux

I tried the threads thing but couldn't get any speed increases.

Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz            12 seconds
Linux Wine PIV HT 3.0 Ghz    50 seconds

Windows is now slower than the Mac but that's what I'd expect. However Linux is out the ball park now. It used to compare not too badly. I've tried various things. For example booting in to normal kernel rather than RT which I use for audio. I've tried changing Linux process priorities. No effect.

Mojoworld is performing great but Mojo is not multi core. I think when TG2 went multi core then running under Linux got way behind. I should get an older TG2 and make comparisons.

Oshyan

Running with 0 threads should be reasonably close to the non-multithreaded rendering.

- Oshyan

efflux

I tried 0 threads. It does seem to cut the time down by a few seconds. I can see that TG2 is using two threads though when I set it that way.

The good news is that TG2 Mac is now running extremely well so I never use the Windows version. The bad news is that I want to ditch both Mac and Windows now.

I've had so many issues with Windows in the past I'm sick of it especially with audio but Now Mac are falling behind as well. Buggy software etc.

Just memory management in Linux makes a laughing stock of OSX. Also, just dumping big files around takes a third of the time. Audio performance is actually "virtual studio" i.e. no discernible latency. I have giant drum banks loading fast into RAM and playing back in real time that can't even be used on my supposedly faster Mac. This is running VSTs under Wine!

Also, graphics cards for Mac cost way more. You see I can build an amazingly powerful Linux machine and run Blender at 64 bit. My graphics card in the PIV was cheap and bought on ebay, just to see how good that would be with Blender. I can actually sculpt meshes in Open GL in Blender. This Linux system running Blender is outperforming Modo on the Mac so it seems a no brainer that my next system will be Linux and perform amazingly.

Oshyan

Well, it's unfortunate that Linux performance is so poor at this point. For now we can't officially support it however. Perhaps other WINE/Linux users may have some advice?

- Oshyan

efflux

I understand it's obviously problematic for Planetside to make a Linux native version. It's not needed (yet).

However Linux is important. To give you an example. Mojoworld is only weeks into working on Linux and several users are using it on Linux including Dmyrty.

Lightzone which has a Linux version is also running better on my PIV than on my dual core Mac.

Luxology seem to have ditched the Linux version of Modo. The reason is always lack of demand but how do they know this? One thing is certain - that there will be no demand when comparable and free software is available for Linux. Then their argument will be correct. Bear in mind that a lot of this software like Blender also runs on Windows so the move to Linux becomes very easy.

I have used Logic for audio since it was running on PCs and owned by Emagic. Over time I must have spent over £1000 on this software which Apple are now wrecking. Bugs in latest version and performing like a slug compared to Linux apps like Ardour. They have totally ignored the users. Their whole understanding of how to deal with software like this is flawed. They simply used the code to create Garageband and gave Logic a nice Apple style UI complete with bugs that weren't there before. Garageband? What's the point. You can install Ardour on OSX complete with Audio Units support and soon to be complete MIDI. Then any sane person will question why even ever buy a Mac again. Superior and free Linux software is developing at a faster pace and on an OS that can be tuned to whatever you are using it for i.e. rt kernel for audio. No point in proprietary software anymore except stuff like TG2, Lightzone, Artrage etc. More unique software by small companies that aren't charging an arm and a leg and who fix bugs and listen to users.

Matt

#10
Hi efflux, I'd like to help improve performance under Wine of course, even though we can't make an official commitment to support it right now. Can you give us some more specific render times with 0, 1, 2 and 4 threads? Then do the exact same thing on Windows and/or Mac? Preferably with a few different types of scene - some with clouds, some without, some with shadows, some without. At the very least I would like to know if performance is more closely matched between OSs when the max threads are 0, but being able to see how it scales up is important too. I also need to be sure that max threads 0 gives similar timings to max threads 1.
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

efflux

Here are results from the default TG2 as it opens and rendered at quick render - latest version on all systems. Two PIV 3.0 GHz HT with HT enabled and a G5 Dual core 2.0 GHz. Nothing else running except a notepad on Linux. You can see Linux is performing very poorly now in comparison. I don't think it has slowed with newer versions but Windows and Mac have radically increased especially Mac. The very latest TG2 is the best yet on Mac. If you need other tests - clouds etc let me know. Why would different scenes make a difference?

The first number is the threads, the second is the time (minutes.seconds)

Wine:

0    0.46
1    1.53
2    0.56

Then it's roughly the same 0.56

OSX:

0    0.17
1    0.17
2    0.12

Then it's always 0.12

Windows:

Always 15 seconds no matter what thread setting.

You'd understand why I'm railing against Windows and Mac if you were here. Imagine what it's like when you upgrade a computer but are forced to go back to a slower one - that's what it feels like for me going back to these Win/OSX systems. It's like hitting a traffic jam.

efflux

One difference I didn't mention is that the Windows system has a fairly bog standard ATI radeon graphics card but the Linux system has an VNidia Quadro FX 3000. I don't think this is too important except to say that a slow graphics card on Linux slows the TG2 UI. It only makes a major difference is heavy Open GL use like in Blender.

efflux

This is an interesting point. With every upgrade of Ubuntu and various software, the Linux system gets faster and faster with no hardware changes. Every upgrade of OSX seems to add more bloat and some apps are not performing as well.

efflux

I think I'll be taking a break from computers for a while. Although I haven't been posting here I have been working a lot.

99% of software is simply terrible.

There is literally only one superb 3D graphics app in my opinion and that is ZBrush. There are some potentially good ones (Modo). I do love TG2 and Mojoworld and I don't class them as bad apps but unique and creative apps. However the render times drive me crazy. You'd need an 8 core machine to get quick results with TG2. Waiting for final renders isn't so bad but it's the waiting while you constantly test render.

If Modo continues to fail to work on Linux Wine and they don't continue any Linux development then I may end up getting an 8 core Mac (or whatever max number of cores they are supplying at the time) which presumably would be superb with TG2. ZBrush is out for Mac now. ZBrush works great under Wine though. It all depends on Modo which is the only app that has the potential to rise above the sea of dreadful 3D animation apps. While I wait to see how that develops that I'll be working in Blender.