Philosophical Approach to TG2

Started by rcallicotte, January 30, 2009, 09:27:09 AM

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rcallicotte

I know there are a lot of different opinions about how the final render should look and this is why I'm bringing this up.  I remember Volker once mentioned that he liked doing his texturing to leave something to the imagination, which would cause the final render to look even better.  This is because, if I understand correctly, overdoing the texturing makes the final render appear to be very 3Dish, or fake looking. 

So...what are your opinions?  Have you noticed, when someone overdoes texturing on the ground or the clouds and it takes away that realism?  How do we avoid looking 3D and still have fantastical renders?  I'm all for going beyond realism to something more believable and yet other-worldly.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Tangled-Universe

This is very difficult matter to discuss because the matter of taste is very much involved.
My opinion/taste is to keep the imagination working when you do something other-worldly or to stay close to nature when you want to make something photorealistic.
To me, keeping the imagination working doesn't necessarily mean a better final render. Although in Volker's images it works fine.

I have one philosophy: whatever you try to create, lighting is key.
(I see so many many images here which would look much better if just some more time was spend on lighting.)

Martin

PorcupineFloyd

For me - procedural approach to computer graphics is very hybrid. It gives you this much needed control over what you are doing but on the other hand, it leaves this degree of randomness and uncertainty. A cloudscape rendered in 1280x800 can look different than the same scene in 3000x2000 because of additional detail being rendered in the process. While playing with displacements you can also get some pleasing, unforeseen effects.

If we're into philosophy - I'm writing my BA now and I plan to include Terragen as an example of mimesis in computer graphics, together with it's procedural rendering technique which is almost limitless and fairly easy to understand. I'm interested mostly in how do people recreate nature by using such tools like Terragen. We've all seen impressive landscapes made in TG without using any models at all and I think it gives an interesting insight on scale - micro and macro cosmos etc.

I've used Vue for some time but after getting a bit of experience with TG2 I can definitely say it's workflow is more intuitive and natural. It's less artificial than very small and local Vue scenes. It kinda makes you think different about what you're creating. If you zoom camera out - you'll see that you're working on a whole world, not just small area.

About faking nature:
I always thought that you'll get more natural looking scene if you increase detail. Bigger quality number, very high quality on vegetation and so on, but now I can see that 0.8 and sometimes even 0.75 together with AA on 9 can produce better realism than quality set on 1. Same thing applies to vegetation details. Medium detail set on trees works better for me than very high setting. I believe it has to do with our poor, human sight.  In TG there is no depth of field and no true lens and therefore seeing leafs from few kilometres far is a bit weird.

But there comes a simple question: What are we aiming for? Are we trying to mimic photos, our own perception or pure phenomenons of life? Or maybe we're not into re-creating the existing but constructing something new instead?

rcallicotte

Good points from both TU and PF.  Lighting is critical, like TU said, whether the render is toward realism or fantasy.  What we're aiming toward does affect whether we think something familiar is the end goal or something entirely foreign is the target.

I know old_blaggard's strong sense of purism in using TG2, as well as his strong desire to stay realistic, challenged me to think about the character and nature of my work in TG2 at the very outset of the beginning of this TG2 forum.  It's pretty easy, in other words, to be sloppy in TG2 and call it "alien".  :D
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

FrankB

I don't know, maybe I'm taking a too simplistic stance for this discussion, but I simply want to make great images. I can tell if they're great when I see one. I'm approaching this more from an arts view: if you like it, it's great. Because people like different things, you could have a perpetual discussion about what's great and what's not.
That being said, it appears that I (personally) have a great deal of respect for photograph-like renders, and that I somehow like these the most. I also must say that I don't think the majority of renders are great. I don't like most of the renders - say - enough to want them be my desktop wallpaper for a while, if you know what I mean.
I agree with TU though that the lighting ususally decides whether a render is photorealistic (which for me equals "great") or not. The second thing people tend to mess up is colors. The third thing is objects, especially vegetation. Usually vegetation spoils the greatness of an image, in particular on close up. That's mostly due to either poor models or not enough variation of the models. In TG2, it's still a good advice to take an elevated position with the camera, when vegetation is involved. At least, you should not be close up and use high AA. It's better to stay away from vegetation closeups... usually. There are exceptions.

Frank

nikita

#5
Mastering TG2 or any other CG tool means using it in an effective and clever way. Some people take one texture and a single surface layer on top of a boring terrain and the result will blow you away. Avoid working on things the eye doesn't see. Focus on doing the important things right. Know the common tricks that make your life easier. Fool the viewer as best as you can.
Leaving things to the imagination can be a nice trick cause the brain will fill those gaps, to a certain extent, with plausible information. You basically let the brain do part of the texturing. (This is why the thumbnails often look more realistic than the image.)

So, whatever works and looks realistic is ok.*

One thing that can help with creating realistic images is knowing that procedural textures are a great tool but worlds that are made of a single pattern repeating over and over again are boring.
The places were the pattern breaks - this is what you want to see, this is what catches our attention. This is where we start to imagine why the pattern breaks here, what is so special about this place. It's obviously special in some way otherwise it would be part of a pattern, no?

Similarly clean materials make your render look like CG. Every object is exposed to the effects of time. An old log cabin standing on a mountain can't look like it was made from perfectly straight and bright clean wooden cylinders just yesterday. It was built ages ago from logs that grew naturally, all have a different shape and a weather-beaten surface, dirty with moss growing here and there.
Fire up photoshop, open the texture and reduce saturation, add dirt, exchange textures altogether if necessary. I often create my own textures for existing objects.

The real problems starts when you try to create realistic images picturing unrealistic places. I'm thinking of stuff like a fantastic world like middle earth, a distant planet, landscapes that don't exist on earth, things that can't exist. Unfortunately, the labels "fantasy", "surreal", "alien" and the like are frequently used to just cover up images that are just bad.

An important thing concerning such non-realistic images: The most interesting images are those that are different from the world as we know it, but still look like they could exist so the viewer starts wondering what it'd be like to live in this strange world. In the best case, your image will also transport emotions.
All this isn't possible if the viewer finds himself in a scene that, for example, consists only of an untextured terrain and a sunset in front of a lake. Such worlds are empty. Imagination tells us that the rest of the planet will probably look equally boring as the scene seen in the image. We find ourself in a boring planet that looks the same everywhere.

* But you shouldn't expect praise for your work when your tricks are obvious and don't lead to an innovative image. Yes, Peak-above-clouds-at-dawn people, I'm looking at you! However, reality shows us that you can get a lot of "Excellent!"s for even a very generic image.

Volker Harun

I do agree with Nikita ... who expresses my thoughts very much.

There is no golden rule. Some very detailed images need some focus blur to look realistic, others would benefit from motion blur, others are in need of detail and vice versa.
The trade-off that the one and the other artist know of - is to build up a balance of composition, lighting and detail.

For Martin's point of view I would like to look back to the God manufacturing practices of TG0.9 ... Create the atmospheres and adjust the lighting ... then start with the surfaces.

Another approach though is just to have fun ;)

Seth

Quote from: Volker Harun on January 31, 2009, 05:04:57 PM


Another approach though is just to have fun ;)

yeaaaah !!! that's Rule Number One !

rcallicotte

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4900&referer=rss

This may seem a little of the thread topic, but I find it interesting that the three top nominees are all focused on reality-based graphics. 
This definitely says something about these studios' philosophical approach to graphic artwork.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Tangled-Universe

Quote from: calico on February 03, 2009, 08:43:39 AM
http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4900&referer=rss

This may seem a little of the thread topic, but I find it interesting that the three top nominees are all focused on reality-based graphics. 
This definitely says something about these studios' philosophical approach to graphic artwork.

Well it is nothing more than logical that these studio's go for realism only. There is nothing as annoying as watching movies in theatres and seeing unrealistic/unnatural looking CGI sequences. Blending CG with the real-world (actors, set, etc.) is their main target and incorporating a philosophy other than realism is very very hard if you want to keep it believable.

rcallicotte

Yeah, but CG encompasses much more than films with real actors.  There are all kinds of science fiction and comic book films, not to mention animation that are all or mostly all CG.  Of course, I guess these are not considered Visual Effects...?
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Tangled-Universe

Quote from: calico on February 03, 2009, 09:31:44 AM
Yeah, but CG encompasses much more than films with real actors.  There are all kinds of science fiction and comic book films, not to mention animation that are all or mostly all CG.  Of course, I guess these are not considered Visual Effects...?

Of course CG encompasses much more than films with real actors, I haven't said it didn't and of course these are also considered being visual effects.

rcallicotte

It looks like Visual Effects and Animated Feature Film are completely separate - http://www.oscar.com/nominees/?pn=nominees

Hence, Visual Effects probably are more for films with live actors, apparently.  This would make sense why it's so important for these studios to be realistic.  And, WOW, were they for this year's nominations!
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Tangled-Universe

I guess I've lost your point completely :) Did you had one anyway? ;) I probably missed it ;D lol

rcallicotte

#14
Just figuring stuff out in the open forum.  It's sometimes an American characteristic that is highly poo-pooed in Europe.  LOL

My point, after much thought over the last couple of years - TG2 could be used for making animations related to complete CG stories; not only realistic renders.  As a matter of fact, it's already been used like that.  Must be a late premonition.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?