prove these guys wrong

[commorancy]

Well, if we're talking about objects, a place to get some would be cowl.
But Clip Files.... I don't think its even a good idea to share them at all...
If you have a site where everybody can simply download a terrain, surface files, objects, clouds and water settings... than you don't really create an image.
Thats just combining the work of others. Even if you buy all this, its not a big thing to just combine something and render it. There is no... own work.
Maybe many people see this different.

Actually, clip files would be fine to share as long as they can be protected.  If they are encapsulated into an opaque container that can be imported, that would allow for protection  I'm sure some authors who go through a lot of work to create a node sequence don't necessarily want to share their 'code'.  So, an opaque object that can't be viewed would be best (at least for selling purposes).  Otherwise, if the node code can be dissected, then it basically allows anyone to see how it was done, copy it and perhaps even sell it themselves.  Obviously, visibility of the code should be up to the author, though.  If the author wants to share his/her node sequence, then that should also be allowed.

As far as whole scenes go, yes, it makes sense not to sell those.  However, if someone spends time building the Grand Canyon and wants to sell that as a clip file, I don't see any issue with this.  That's where the store personnel object review and the terms of service of the store would have to come into play.  So, for example, in order to become a seller, you'd have to agree to upload only individual components... (clouds only, surfaces only, objects, etc) and not whole scenes.

As far as combining the work of others, that's what people are already doing and have been doing for years with Poser, Daz Studio and most recently Vue and TrueSpace.  So, I don't inherently see anything wrong in utilizing the work of others to produce a scene as long as the composition of the final scene is yours alone.  There's something to be said for creating everything yourself.. but have you tried to create a human model with the complexity of Daz's Michael 4 or Victoria 4?  You'd spend the better part of 6 months just modeling it.  Then, another several months trying to produce the necessary texture maps to make it look realistic.

It's doubtful that the farm scene that opened this thread was 100% created by the person who composed and rendered the scene.  The 3D grass, trees and farmhouse were likely produced by others.

Thanks.

[FrankB]

Well, if we're talking about objects, a place to get some would be cowl.
But Clip Files.... I don't think its even a good idea to share them at all...
If you have a site where everybody can simply download a terrain, surface files, objects, clouds and water settings... than you don't really create an image.
Thats just combining the work of others. Even if you buy all this, its not a big thing to just combine something and render it. There is no... own work.
Maybe many people see this different.

I will take the stance that that's bull#*5&. - NO personal offense meant, Goms!

Goms, I know that this thinking has somehow spread through the German hobbyist network, but let me tell you that it's just common sense to use pre-defined elements to create a new whole.
When you build a house, do you feel guilty and un-creative because someone else has made the bricks for the walls and the glass for the windows? Probably not.
And when you render a scene with TG2, do you feel guilty and un-creative because you're using Klas oak tree in it?
You'll get my point.
I recommend to let go of that thought. It takes the fun out of things

Cheers,
Frank

[Tangled-Universe]

If I'm correct TG2 will support macro-functionality somewhere in the future which will allow users/creators to encapsulate node-sequences into one single macro-node. It should then be relatively easy to protect the actual content of the macro and only allow other users to use the parameters offered by the macro.

[commorancy]

Actually, what's happening now is the beginning of the creation of a partner ecosystem around TG2. It may happen the way you described, or in another and maybe better ways.
I think that we users and Planetside.. they don't want to become exactly like Vue.

Actually, I don't like Vue's partner system.  Of all of the partner systems I've used, I prefer Daz's system and interface.  It's easy to search and easy to find items.  The licensing terms are very clear as well.  You can use the purchased objects in 2D illustrations, but the actual purchased 3D models (and associated resources) themselves cannot be sold.

Perhaps this store/partner concept can be done better.  But, I'm not sure how that would work.  There are a certain amount of freebies given away in any content creation system.  But, in order to attract the most people into the partner system, there has to be a commercial portion where people can share in the profits of items they create.  And specifically, share them to people with like minded interests (i.e., sell them to people who own TG2). Of course, that's dependent upon how many copies of TG2 have been sold.

Eventually, individual contributors to that ecosystem may or may not join forces. At the moment, we are on our way to exactly do that. NWDA is gathering the best artists for TG2 (and growing) to create a de-facto high quality TG2 ecosystem side on the commercial end of it all. We're small still, but we're growing, so that in a while we'll have a big portfolio to choose from. So this may become one of the places you're looking at.

Could be... we'll have to wait and see.  I'd like to see some kind of involvement from Planetside in this, though.

But equally important is the free sharing that we all do, here and in other places. Although I run the commercial store at NWDA, I still share presets and techniques. Some of them I actually develop consciuosly just for free distribution. I also encourage my partners to continue to share things.  Never forget that TG2 has just launched, and this is all the early beginnings of it. We don't have to rush headless, just to eventually become the same rip-off as the Vue ecosystem apparently is.  We have the chance, and the obligation, to make it better. And in my mind, that includes a healthy mix of communities, free sharing and productized "solutions", such as some high end presets and objects.

Amen
Frank

Yes, TG2 has just launched (sort of).  It's not like the pre-purchase hasn't been available for quite some time.  But yes, a partner ecosystem will be necessary to bring in other artists who otherwise would never have looked twice at TG2.  There are many artists who do want to produce high quality scenes, but they aren't technical enough to write node sequences themselves.  So, they rely on the more technical people to come up with cool looking cloudscapes and terrains.  That allows them to concentrate on producing the images rather than the details of producing node networks.  Which is why a store with objects is important to TG2's adoption by artists.

Thanks.

--
Brian

[commorancy]

If I'm correct TG2 will support macro-functionality somewhere in the future which will allow users/creators to encapsulate node-sequences into one single macro-node. It should then be relatively easy to protect the actual content of the macro and only allow other users to use the parameters offered by the macro.

Cool to hear.  I think this will become very important in a commercial marketplace.

Thanks.

--
Brian

[rcallicotte]

To come alongside of Frank's explanation about Clip Files, the original message from Planetside about this TG2 system is that there would be builders of internal node networks and another group of people who wouldn't want to get into those details.  I'm somewhere in between.  But, just because I have a load of clip files doesn't make me less or more creative.  I might not be as technical, but can still come up with some cool stuff...even with others' clip files.

[Goms]

I will take the stance that that's bull#*5&. - NO personal offense meant, Goms!

Goms, I know that this thinking has somehow spread through the German hobbyist network, but let me tell you that it's just common sense to use pre-defined elements to create a new whole.
When you build a house, do you feel guilty and un-creative because someone else has made the bricks for the walls and the glass for the windows? Probably not.
And when you render a scene with TG2, do you feel guilty and un-creative because you're using Klas oak tree in it?
You'll get my point.
I recommend to let go of that thought. It takes the fun out of things

Cheers,
Frank

right, but i did not mean objects or single clip files. Also, i absolutely agree that no one has the time and knowledge to create all models himself. That was not my point.
I just don't like the thought that someone just combines clipfiles. Its ok to take a look and see, how other people are doing something. Also it may be possible to learn from clipfiles. But just combining without learning something from it...
It's of course ok to sell clipfiles if there is demand for it. It would also be ok to sell whole scenes.
It's just my opinion about this topic; if i see a picture in which is a huge amount of individual work its more amazing than a picture where i see the clouds, stones and snow from your site. Maybe the terrain is downloaded from another site and thats it. It will of course look good. But not because the work of the artist but because your work.
However, thats a point where a discussion could not lead to anything.

[rcallicotte]

Goms, I agree with you that I've seen some very creative people on this site who can take nothing and create a masterpiece.  But, these are in a slim minority.  I think of Seth, since I remember him from when he first came here.  His first image showed something special and I remember commenting on something.  He was very polite about it, but in very quick order he was creating beautiful images.  Yet, I'd bet money that he would never say he never learned anything anyone nor would he say he has never used a clip file. 

Painters don't usually make their own paint or create their own canvas or tools.  A clip file is a tool.  Yep, we can learn from a clip file.  But, using a clip file in a creative way can be just as creative as creating something from scratch.  Frank's analogy about a builder is accurate...having a bunch of beautiful pieces of the grand design, but not designing the blueprint or not having fabricated these beautiful individual pieces of a building, didn't prevent someone from creating the Empire State Building or erecting the Eiffel Tower. 

Let's not forget the most potentially creative person here is Matt. 

[pauli]

FrankB,  Martins avatar was getting on my nerves so bad I disabled avatars in the preferences section. That one of wetbanana's makes me want to take a hammer to it. Grrrrrrr  Must an old age thing? LOL

One of the few advantages of Internet Explorer is that you can stop animations by clicking the stop button. On Firefox and Opera, the stop button can only be used to stop loading the page, and it is not available after the page has been loaded.

On Opera, you can stop animation by selecting "Tools" -> "Quick preferences" (or press F12), and then uncheck "Enable animated images".

Incidentally, I notice that the message editor on this forum has a button for marguee. That is another element that should be avoided.
--
Pauli