Autumn...

Started by FrankB, September 14, 2009, 05:34:43 AM

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Walli

Quote from: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Those 2D xfrog broad leaves are certainly not the way to go. :(

well, not long ago most people were complaining about polygon count (and still do), so using 2D planes was the only practical way. Keep in mind, when replacing this last level by geometry, you easily can pass 1 million polygons - thats still not an option for most people.

Actually I think that also could be something nice for a renderengine - only recieving position data were the leaves should be and then do some instancing inside the instance ;-)

FrankB

It doesn't matter whether it's technically more feasible to render with a low poly count or not. My point is that especially the broadleaf vegetation is spoiling realism big time in our renders. 2D is fine when each leaf is not more than 4 pixels, but even then: like in this model, all leaves follow the same orientation and plane, and when you see a branch from the side, it's flat. So in reality these models are ok for mid distances, but not as close as this.

Did I say I need a hero tree already? ;D

Frank

FrankB

I would like to add: high poly count is soon to become a problem of the past. With 64 bit coming along in TG2 sometime soon, and RAM being so cheap... hey!


Walli

I understand you perfectly ;-)

cyphyr

Quote from: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:49:58 PM
... do some instancing inside the instance ;-)

I'm liking, confused but liking :)

Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
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goldfarb

Quote from: Walli on September 14, 2009, 04:49:58 PM
Quote from: FrankB on September 14, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Those 2D xfrog broad leaves are certainly not the way to go. :(

well, not long ago most people were complaining about polygon count (and still do), so using 2D planes was the only practical way. Keep in mind, when replacing this last level by geometry, you easily can pass 1 million polygons - thats still not an option for most people.

Actually I think that also could be something nice for a renderengine - only recieving position data were the leaves should be and then do some instancing inside the instance ;-)

something like renderman's Delayed Load would solve this issue...(only loads geometry when needed)

OR

have a tree that can receive a population, so the leaves are instances instead of duplicated geometry...


@njeneb - "natural debris. Dead trees, logs, leaves, needles, and various seeds."

something like dandelO's Planetary Grass Shader but modified to make this kind of natural debris...
--
Michael Goldfarb | Senior Technical Director | SideFX | Toronto | Canada

Volker Harun

Nice scene ... I do not know if anybody noticed ... some better tree would add to realsim ;)

Seth


jo

Hi,

I've always had a theory that bicubic patches would be a good way to go for leaf geometry. Nice curving shapes without too much added data, quick to evaluate during rendering. A bit slower than flat polys no doubt, but a worthwhile tradeoff for increased realism I think.

Regards,

Jo

CCC

For instance inside of a instance. I am very certain Modo 401 does this where a user can have an instanced tree and have an instanced leaf on each tree.


Walli

What I can see more and more often is, that many render engines actually have problems, when tracing that many alpha planes. I even stumbled over extrem cases where a 2000 poly lowpoly LOD of a tree rendered much slower compared to the original (about 150000 polygons).
The main problem when going the very detailed approach is the amount of memory needed. Of course you can instance this tree without much impact - but then you probably only can load two or three of these "monsters" until you are out of RAM, unless you have 8GB+.

So I really think it would be a nice approach to generate such leaf (and probably even tiny branching) geometry at rendertime would be veeeery nice - but for sure very complex to implement.

In any case, during autumn a hero will be born, I am pretty sure about that.

FrankB

Quote from: Walli on September 15, 2009, 03:04:59 AM
In any case, during autumn a hero will be born, I am pretty sure about that.

I'm certainly looking forward to that! Great news!

Frank

Henry Blewer

Back in the day, I used VistaPro 3 and Scenery Animator 4. The approach they used was L-Systems for tree/plant generation. World Construction Set used billboards with actual photos of trees. The VistaPro / Scenery Animator approach was fast, and produced decent results for that time. World Construction Set was slow on my Amiga 4000. It could take 2 days for a single image.
The billboard approach could be used in Terragen 2 effectively for stills. A plug-in for an L-System would be a cool add-on.
http://flickr.com/photos/njeneb/
Forget Tuesday; It's just Monday spelled with a T

Walli

until you get an  l-system that is capable of creating nice plants - especieally if you want more then just some firs and broadleaves - takes a while.

L-Systems can be very powerful though. Houdini has a nice l-system implemention, well integrated.

Zylot

I've been waiting for something like this for a while, nice!